On Buying a Laptop At eBay

[BruisedQuasar]

I've noticed members reporting getting stiffed when buying from eBay. I've been both a seller of used gadgets and a long time buyer (since 2001). I've introduced & "trained" several people in buying & selling on eBay. I do not know everything but I do know something.

Here is my take.

Selling. Never sell using the same eBay name or Paypal account you use for buying.

There as many rouge buyers as there are sleezy or bad sellers. Sleezy sellers tend to be the bigger sellers and their bag of tricks is extensive. Be Warned that eBay policies and both eBay and Paypal (owned by eBay) "arbitation" is a total clown show.

If you are a small seller (Feedback under a few thousand & especially sellers with under 1000 feedback), eBay & Paypal will likely rule against you. If you are a buyer stiffed by a big seller, eBay & Paypal will likely rule against you.

There have always been policy loopholes that allow big sellers to greatly inflate their Feedback rating. If you want to get closer to the truth about a seller use TOOLHAUS.ORG... You go to TOOLHAUS, after you highlight & "copy" the sellers name. Then, simply "paste" the seller name into the TOOLHAUS blank. You will get only the seller's negatives and neutrals. Look for patterns. Keep in mind most eBay buyers are naive occassional buyers who tend to grant positive feedback & glowing comments immediately on receiving and unboxing their item.

Most positive feedback are useless beyond telling you they got their item & it appeared fine. You get about 30 days to feedback. Wait a few weeks or until you have time to know something!

Patterns to look for: Doesn't respond to email. Failed to do promised credit or refund,
Item not as described, took long time to ship.

When you are going to spend a few hundred dollars for a Laptop, etc., send a question to the seller you think you will buy from. Make it a rather silly question a computing novice might ask. See if you get a reply(do not buy from a seller until you get a reply). See if you get an insulting or wiseguy reply. If you get either, do not buy from that seller.

Always use Paypal and link your buying Paypal account ONLY to a credit card. Never link Paypal with a credit card company debit card or a bank account. Do either & you give eBay\Paypal total control over your transaction. Why use a credit card?

You have some power against the eBay loaded deck and sleezy or bad sellers when you use a charge card. BWARE. YOU HAVE a limited time to exercise that power, so know how long your card gives you to ask for a charge back; it usually ranges 30 to 45 days, depending on the card. Immediately on receiving your item, inspect it and use it, looking for damage, fraud, etc.

Skip the eBay\Paypal clown show "arbitration" system. If you have a problem and see you will get nowhere with the seller, give him a negative. Think over your comment before you enter it so you can do the most damage in fewest words. Avoid "thief" or "liar" name calling. Present facts.

If you are a victim of fraud or terrible service, you will like this one. When you do a credit card chargeback, you ask for the full amount, which includes shipping. So, you will "fine" a bad seller the cost of shipping. Paypal charges sellers for charge backs AT THE SAME RATE as they charge them for handling the sale money. So does eBay!

If you know the ropes, you can get restitution and punish a bad eBay seller much more than you can a local retailer!

If you are a small eBay seller make your ad as forrthright and detailed as possible & charge only what you must for shipping. Ship only with a method where you get proof the item was delivered. For items over $100, I would want signature proof the buyer received the item. Rouge buyers claim they did not receive their item or they take parts they need from the item and claim the item came defective. You want to take down serial numbers and this scam gives you good reason to take clear photos.

Scam buyers prey on small sellers with 99% & higher feedback. They especially seek sellers with a few hundred feedback and 100% positive feedback. I suspect that scam sellers and scam buyers are often the same people as scam buyers seem to know eBay loopholes well. By the way, many large bad sellers tend to "be bad" toward buyers with 100 or more feedback & a 100% positive feedback rating. These sellers use negative feedback as a weapon and they are quick to send the buyer a withdrawal offer.

Check a few seller negative feedback to see if the seller retaliates with a BS negative to the buyer. Avoid such sellers.

Hope this helps.

--Bruised

[twillis449]

Thanks for the post. Great advice there!

[GrandMasterKhan]

In general, one should avoid eBay. Would you spend over one grand on a computer buying it in an alley thought a peep hole without seeing the seller? A little exagerrated but why would you buy from virtually the same? For small ticket items, where the risk of loss is small its probably OK but not a computer. I wouldn't.

[Neil]

Some good and helpful advise here, but a couple of questions:

1) Why the separate buyer and seller accounts? I'm interested in more detail about why that is a good thing.

2) Why is this posted in the T6x forum? Looks like it would be better in a general or off-topic area.

Admin note: Good question! Moved thread.

[rkawakami]

Why the two accounts? The theory goes that you could slam a seller with negative feedback when using your "buying" account and not have the seller able to retaliate / harass any of your sales that run on your "selling": account. Of course this assumes that you can keep people from finding out about your "other" account.

I don't subscribe to having two eBay accounts (I do have two registered PayPal addresses but that's simply a matter of trying to avoid credit card fees and having the flexibility for paying out of my checking account or using a credit card). I like to see an eBay member's total feedback as a buyer as well as a seller. That gives me more of a feeling on how they deal with both sides of a transaction.

[AMATX]

All good points. In my case, I've bought a lot of 'stuff' off of ebay over the last 10+ years, including many Thinkpads. Only time I had a problem with a Tpad was with a guy who didn't pack well, and the laptop arrived with a corner really chewed up. Didn't go for the 'hit UPS up for insurance claim' thing, but immediately went through ebay's dispute process, while -also- issuing a ccard charge back. Once the guy saw I meant biz, no problem with returning it for a refund. I found ebay very accommodating, unlike what one usually reads on the web.

Any rate, if presented with the right deal, I'd continue to use ebay. Or course, I do have my routines - proper feedback, detailed pics, length of time w/ebay, ccard only for payment, slush/spare bank account for paypal, etc. etc. etc.

You think computers are bad, you oughta try musical instruments. I've seen so much crap in that area, I can sniff a raw deal a mile away.

As usual w/ebay, if'n you don't gets good vibes all around, then don't even think of pulling the trigger. That said, there really are some decent deals out there. If one has the time & patience, something interesting will usually pop up.

[ajkula66]

A couple of things here:

BruisedQuasar wrote:

By the way, many large bad sellers tend to "be bad" toward buyers with 100 or more feedback & a 100% positive feedback rating. These sellers use negative feedback as a weapon and they are quick to send the buyer a withdrawal offer.

Not true anymore, since there's (sadly) no way of leaving buyer a negative feedback. This has been the case for well over a year.

If you are a small seller (Feedback under a few thousand & especially sellers with under 1000 feedback), eBay & Paypal will likely rule against you. If you are a buyer stiffed by a big seller, eBay & Paypal will likely rule against you.

Not in my experience. I've won as a small seller, and I've won against big sellers as a buyer. It all depends on a particular set of circumstances.

You get about 30 days to feedback.

AFAIK it's 90 days.

Be Warned that eBay policies and both eBay and Paypal (owned by eBay) "arbitation" is a total clown show.

Not necessarily. If you have a solid case and know how to present it, you are likely to win, regardless of side of the fence that you're on. I've won many and lost a couple. The biggest advantage of escalating a dispute with the other party to a claim is the fact that the entire disputed amount gets frozen and temporarily unavailable to the seller.

My advice to anyone selling anything - take dated pictures, and plenty of them. I've just won a claim against a buyer who tried to present a working item as being DOA. And, of course, offer no warranty or returns under any circumstances.

And the most important piece of advice, at least when it comes to ThinkPads - stay off the fleabay and conduct your business in this forum's Marketplace...even if you're not intent on buying anything from me...

[goofyGAguy]

AFAIK it's 90 days.

60

[goofyGAguy]

And, of course, offer no warranty or returns under any circumstances.

Sorry, if a buyer files a SNAD (Significantly Not as Described) dispute and wins, you WILL be accepting returns, whether you like it or not.

[RealBlackStuff]

In such a case, the seller is fully to blame for not describing the item properly.

[ajkula66]

And let's not forget that in those cases the burden of proof is on the buyer...

My advice would be to be well-prepared for possible riff-raff bidding on your items, but describe them accurately nevertheless.

Also, half-a-zillion different disclaimers usually scare off most of the bad buyers anyway. But it's fair to say that no one is really dispute-proof.

[goofyGAguy]

My advice would be to be well-prepared for possible riff-raff bidding on your items

Mine would be to put the riff-raff on your Blocked Bidder List.

[goofyGAguy]

In such a case, the seller is fully to blame for not describing the item properly.

Have you ever sold on eBay?

[RealBlackStuff]

Regularly, over 500 FB, all positive. Check my eBay userID 'realblackstuff'

[goofyGAguy]

Okay. You should know better than anyone that it's very possible to do everything right as a seller, and run across a clueless and/or spiteful buyer.

[BruisedQuasar]

Why the separate buyer and seller accounts? I'm interested in more detail about why that is a good thing.
.

I had to cut detail somewhere so I intentionally did not explain. I figured if anyone wanted an answer to that one, someone would say so.
You did & you did!

The reason I suggest separate seller & buyer paypal accounts is this: I assume 99% of the Forum members are occasional and small volume sellers, when selling at all. If you sell, you open yourself up to scam. Scam buyers and sellers TARGET small sellers. As such, you do not want to surrender to a scam buyer or scam sellers "extortion" demands because you fear taking a negative hit. The fewer your sales, the bigger the black eye a single negative will give you. A person who buys and sells under the same eBay name & Paypal account opens himself up to scammers on both sides. Scammers will consider the damage to you as Seller AND Buyer. So will you and THEY know it.

A second reason relates to an eBay policy. A buyer who also sells under the same eBay name and paypal account DOES NOT have the charge back power I spoke of. eBay/Paypal gets the last word over your every transaction. Over the years, I have read online many complaints
from eBayers that eBay or Paypal penalized them for doing a charge back. The charge back amount was withdrawn from their Paypal attached bank account. These ebayers said that they were told to submit their dispute for arbitration.

We figure this is why eBay tries to lead buyers into thinking they gain something by becoming "Verified" (I think I'm using the correct term). They want buyers to think that somehow they gain by connecting their bank account to Paypal and getting the "Verified" status label. Buyers gain nothing from that. Ebay gains total control over "Verified" buyer's transactions by getting them to sign over power of attorney of their bank account ("connecting your Paypal account to your bank account")

An Aside:
My former selling partner came up with this one. I do not know if there is a flaw in his strategy. I do know that there is no flaw in the separate (buyer and seller account approach). My friend's strategy is set up a bank account at a bank differrent from where you do your banking. Open an account at bank 2 JUST for your seller\buyer Paypal account. Keep just enough funds in that account to do your business, no more.

I think this special second bank account is an unnecessary hassle. The two ebay name & two paypal account method is clean and simple, no extra bank account to manage.

We did partially apply my partner's idea. He opened a new account and shifted all his banking to that account (and bank). He kept our selling account and his buying account in one account but the bank account part was now a small, controlled account, just for selling.

BEWARE: Any time you sign for an employer to put your pay check into your bank account (direct deposit), anytime you pay for something (insurance premium, for example) by signing for your bank to auto pay the bill, or when you attach your bank account to Paypal, NO MATTER WHAT THEY CALL IT on the other end, YOU ARE GIVING THEM LEGAL POWER OF ATTORNEY over your bank account! Power of attorney allows them to WITHDRAW as well as DEPOSIT!

--Bruised

[BruisedQuasar]

In general, one should avoid eBay. Would you spend over one grand on a computer buying it in an alley thought a peep hole without seeing the seller? A little exagerrated but why would you buy from virtually the same? For small ticket items, where the risk of loss is small its probably OK but not a computer. I wouldn't.

Most of the people I know feel even more strongly than you do. They will not buy anything, anytime anywhere off Internet. I strongly disagree. I actually live a significantly higher lifestyle than I could if I did not buy off eBay and Amazon.com

All of my computers, printer supplies, consumer electronics (except big heavy items such as TV. Bigger items I find and buy locally through Craiglist) I have purchased off eBay or Amazon.com

I buy used and I buy for substantially less than I possibly could offline. I even helped a relative complete the buy of a work (2 bench seats, open back interior) Suburban "truck". He found the sale online, spoke to the seller by telephone & ask me to advise him on further action. There is absolutely no way he could have located an older "Truck" in such fine condition for so little money without finding it on Craigslist.

I find if you set & follow some basic sound rules in buying & selling, selling online can get you good bucks for things you no longer want and save you a hunk on things you want or need.

--Bruised

[underclocker]

Caution when buying on eBay is always the right mood. If something doesn't seem right about the ad, seller, pictures, feedback, etc., then don't hope you'll be lucky, you probably won't be.

At this point, I'd say that over 50% of the used electronics-type items that I buy on eBay are either not-as-described or packed poorly (sometimes resulting in damage). Over 50%. I grimace with each purchase and beg for adequate packing in the note that I send with each payment.

The only reason I continue buying is because PayPal has helped me get refunds or partial refunds 100% of the time. My recommendation for eBay buyers that received items not as described or damaged is to first contact the seller providing details and pictures along with a specific request for an adjustment (that is often enough). Second, threaten a PayPal dispute (more give in at this point). Third, file the dispute and escalate it quickly to a claim (100% success for me so far).

While it is extremely disapointing to deal with disreputable or lazy sellers, at least PayPal is helpful. I've easily gone through this procedure dozens of times.

As an example, "I received the ThinkPad yesterday. Thank you for the excellent packing. However, your ad stated it was in excellent cosmetic condition and I found that the LCD bezel is cracked (see link to picture below). I am willing to swap out the bezel myself, but I'd like you to cover the cost of purchasing one on eBay. I see them listed for as low as $25 delivered. I would like a PayPal partial refund for that amount. That would make me a happy customer. Thank you."

[goofyGAguy]

Ed, if I may ask: what is your eBay user name?

[ZaZ]

first contact the seller providing details and pictures along with a specific request for an adjustment (that is often enough). Second, threaten a PayPal dispute (more give in at this point). Third, file the dispute and escalate it quickly to a claim (100% success for me so far).

I've found withholding feedback, now that sellers are no longer allowed to leave negative feedback, can sometimes apply pressure to make sellers do the right thing. Don't just leave feedback when you get it, but test it out and make sure it's everything they say.

[ajkula66]

goofyGAguy wrote:

Mine would be to put the riff-raff on your Blocked Bidder List.

If you'd care to share the precise setting of your crystal ball that alerts you with a "red riff-raff alarm" when they place a bid, I'd highly appreciate it...

BruisedQuasar wrote:

I find if you set & follow some basic sound rules in buying & selling, selling online can get you good bucks for things you no longer want and save you a hunk on things you want or need.

Five years ago I would've agreed with you wholeheartedly. Nowadays it's become very much of a PITA, especially selling stuff on feebay. For the most part - at least for me - it's not worth it anymore. I still do buy quite a few non-ThinkPad-related items, though.

[goofyGAguy]

If you'd care to share the precise setting of your crystal ball that alerts you with a "red riff-raff alarm" when they place a bid, I'd highly appreciate it...

Gladly. When an item of mine receives a bid, I immediately go into that user's feedback profile and read the feedback they've left for previous sellers. If I see even ONE neutral or negative feedback rating, I cancel their bid and put them on my block list, no questions asked.

[emtee3511]

"If I see even ONE neutral or negative feedback rating, I cancel their bid and put them on my block list, no questions asked."

Well, that may work well for you as a Seller, but in my few years as a happy and prolific eBay buyer, I have had the rare occasion to leave a negative feedback -- if an item never arrives and Seller does not answer email after several weeks, I open a dispute to have my payment refunded -- and yes, I leave a negative feedback -- on the few occasions I have had to leave a negative, I have left a calm, clear comment as to what the unresolved problem was. If I have a problem with a 'not as described' or unreceived item with a Seller, and we are able to mutually work out a solution, my feedback left is always positive, along with five stars --

If, after reviewing my feedback left, (ebay ID = emtee3511) you would choose to block me as a bidder, then you are losing a customer who stays in the auction bidding up to fair market value, pays with PayPal immediately, and leaves positive feedback with five stars for all purchases that are not scams or rip-offs -- But will I leave a negative for a scam or rip-off? yep...

[goofyGAguy]

"If I see even ONE neutral or negative feedback rating, I cancel their bid and put them on my block list, no questions asked."

Well, that may work well for you as a Seller....blah blah

Sorry I seem to have offended you, but that is basically the only way sellers can protect themselves on today's eBay.

[BruisedQuasar]

Gladly. When an item of mine receives a bid, I immediately go into that user's feedback profile and read the feedback they've left for previous sellers. If I see even ONE neutral or negative feedback rating, I cancel their bid and put them on my block list, no questions asked.

In my opinion, sound policy to a point. My partner was never that strict but he would accept bids from some buyers with few feedback & short time on eBay. At first, that made me nervous. He pointed out that he emailed them and said he'd accept their bids on condition that they use a postal money order. We never got burnt doing that. He let some buyers with a incoming or outgoing negative or two bid only after they answered a question or two about it to his satisfaction. The only buyer with whom we ever had a real problem had 200 positive feedback and 100% rating. He was super slick. He collected rare DVD movies. He won a rare DVD of a major French film ("Ponet", I think it was).

He falsely claimed it had some scratches and threatened us with our first negative. My partner negotiated a $10 refund. The extortion steamed me but my partner was correct. He pointed out we still made $30 on it and kept our 100% rating. We made it clear we would not be selling anything to him in future. When we checked all his buys that we could, we discovered that all his buys were ONLY from small sellers with 100% feedback. We emailed a few sellers. They were ripped off worse than we. Too hasty to avoid a negative, they had refunded 50% or more.

AN ASIDE: BAD SELLERS still use feedback against buyers. It's just not as powerful now. A seller packed a box to me really sloppy. No harm done, so I just mentioned it in my Positive Feedback to him. He refused to give me feedback in retaliation. A Childis act, as. I will never buy from him again.

--Bruised

[rkawakami]

That method of canceling bids may work for most typical eBay buyers, but I don't believe I'm typical. I snipe and I try to pay within an hour or two of the closing time if it's during my normal waking hours. What would you do in that case? And yes, I've left a couple of neutral and negatives but believe me the sellers went out of their way to earn them.

My current eBay adventure consists of winning a parts/repair R51 a few days ago and receiving a T22. Seller was immediately informed of that happening but so far (~24 hours later), no word from them. I understand that they are a fairly big outfit (almost 46,000 feedbacks; 98.4%) so I'm going to give them until Monday evening before I start the escalation. I found a listing for a T22 that they sold two days prior to the R51 and it looks the same as what I have, down to the sticker that they put over the Microsoft COA. So it's obvious that I received the wrong system and there's probably no chance that I'm ever going to get the R51 that I won. Their stated policy is to "fully refund" if the item was misrepresented or DOA and I'm assuming that this includes getting a totally wrong item. But they say that return shipping is my responsibility. I'm going to challenge that as I shouldn't have to pay anything extra for their mistake. Based on previous experience (this has happened to me before), my guess is that they will issue the refund and tell me to keep the T22. In which case, I'll probably end up leaving them positive feedback, if they don't jerk me around.

[RealBlackStuff]

In 10 years I only ever got 1 neutral feedback, the rest was positive.
I've bought many Thinkpads on eBay, and so far I never got stung.
The few items that were not as described, were always dealt with correctly, i.e. full refund including return shipping, or even full refund and keep the item.
Overall I still have a positive experience with eBay, both buying and selling.
The fees though are a different story altogether...

[jdhurst]

I don't buy computers on eBay (I have purchased one here on thinkpads.com), but I purchase offbeat electronic gear and the occasional piece of software. I have never been stung either, but on several occasions, I have telephoned the buyer and worked up a relationship of trust. That goes a very long way. ... JDH

[goofyGAguy]

But they say that return shipping is my responsibility.

That's Federal law.

[ajkula66]

goofyGAguy wrote:

...but that is basically the only way sellers can protect themselves on today's eBay.

That really doesn't work if you have (as I always do) an item listed with "Buy It Now" and requiring immediate payment...otherwise, I can see where you're coming from. Apart from that, quite a few buyers have the strategy that Ray has described, although I never "snipe" myself.

It might have to do something with the aging, but I just have less and less patience for selling on eBay which is getting more and more ridiculous with its fees...and regulations...