T410 LCD Display looks horrible

[adam_t56]

Am I the only one, or is the LCD display on the T410 just absolutely horrid?

White/lighter areas look like a checker board and images are dotted. Text suffers as well . . . What a strain on my eyes.

Surely my monitor is defective or is this normal? Does anyone else with a T410 notice this?

[Colonel O'Neill]

That's the dithering that is used on these 6-bit TN panels. I can see them myself and I got used to them. Still sucks nonetheless.
Check if it's the Samsung panel or LG panel. Because they're still 16:10, I assume Lenovo is still drawing upon the same LCD sources as the T400.

[Mutnat]

Do you have the WXGA or WXGA+ screen?

[pnolan]

Your not alone -


Anandtech's review found the T410 screen to be the lowest contrast screen they ever tested (with black levels worse than net books) but I'm certain the screen on the X300 I own, is even worse again...that's what 3000 usd got you back in the day from Lenovo.(Bought X300 when it was just released around feb 2008 - It's been a fantastic laptop except for the screen, really fantastic). It's a sad day when 300 dollar netbooks with glossy screens, have better panels that the ones Lenovo uses.

You get used to the crap screen, and don't even notice after awhile, and only problem i had was managing the websites for our business - our designer would send me something to review, and it would look completely different on the laptop than on my dell IPS monitor (or any normal monitor besides) - especially if you use external monitors a bit, its not the end of the world and people who have bought the current generation of T410 and T410s shouldn't take it too hard, they are fantastic machines apart from the screen.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2976/leno ... business/6


"The T410 unfortunately earns the dubious distinction of having the lowest contrast LCD panel that we've tested to date. One would think that with the higher price and quality construction, it would be easy for Lenovo to get a better panel into the mix. Then again, finding quality panels that don't cost an arm and a leg (i.e. the RGB LED backlit panels) appears to be difficult. Manufacturers are always seeking for ways to reduce BOM (Bill of Materials) costs, and with few laptops advertising contrast ratios it's an area where it's easy to cut corners. The LCD is still bright, but colors are definitely washed out compared to better LCDs."

I'm not sure why we put up with Lenovo for cheaping out like this - I suppose its because everything else is so good - the look, keyboard, build quality etc...

IF I got the T410 / T410s (which uses the same crappy panel) it would have to be used mostly with an external high resolution monitor (maybe a dell IPS monitor) - and thanks to the display port it makes this easy.

Even Matt Kohutt has acknowledged the bad quality screens on his blog - in his own words, even he can't stand the display (without color calibration):

"Shortly after CES I decided that my T400s display had a decidedly blue cast – disgustingly so. I decided to color calibrate it. Before color calibration it did not really shift colors as I tilted it forwards and backwards. Now, calibrated, if I fold it back, I can see a red cast...

...But fortunately, if I look at it head on, it looks decidedly better than it ever has before. I will never mistake this panel for a W510 display, but it is a definite improvement. I can’t tolerate it without color calibration any longer.

Check out - http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=406#comments - there are 69 comments mainly about the screen quality which has yet to be even acknowledged by Matt (there should be 70 comments but mine got deleted for some reason - I shouldn't have brought certain references to mainland China into the comment where I'm based at the moment )

The software he uses to color calibrate the screen is called Spyder 3 Pro and its not cheap. So most people won't be able to do the same.

Enter W510

- It has a georgous FHD RGB LED display and many of the reviews on the forum say its the closest to their beloved P series flexviews. RonS - Archer etc.. guys that seriously know their thinkpads say the same thing: Here's RonS's review http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=84627 where he compares the screen to a flexview.

Even the lower HD+ 1600 x 900 seems to have a very high contrast ratio etc..and I'm looking at getting the W510 because at least the screen appears to be getting back to flexview standards...http://forums.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=87086 - otherwise i would suggest to people who can't afford to lay down 2000 usd on a machine that has no battery life and is 2.88 KG's - looking at the current generation of thinkpads to wait until the next refresh in 8 - 9 months.

Maybe Lenovo will have their priorities straight at that stage. Especially if their customers keep letting themselves be heard - what kind of company succeeds by not listening to their customers?

[adam_t56]

Do you have the WXGA or WXGA+ screen?

WXGA

[adam_t56]

That's the dithering that is used on these 6-bit TN panels. I can see them myself and I got used to them. Still sucks nonetheless.
Check if it's the Samsung panel or LG panel. Because they're still 16:10, I assume Lenovo is still drawing upon the same LCD sources as the T400.

Apart from taking the unit apart, I am not sure how to tell who the manufacturer is.

I hope I get used to it as well since returning it is not an option. Besides the display, the laptop is great.

What a shame ..

[Navck]

Low contrast, eye strain?
Strange, I transitioned from a T43 with a SXGA+ IPS (Flexview) panel to my T410, the major differences are:
Went from a yellowish screen to a blueish screen. Used the Win7 screen calibration wizard and fixed that.
Contrast is fairly OK on the T410, you'd know its not a Flexview screen for sure but I can actually use the T410 outdoors in strong sunlight, which is a radical depature from glossy LCDs and the dim Flexview screen.
Horizontal viewing angles are OK, it isn't a screen for you and 3 of your buddies crowding around the laptop. Vertical has a fairly narrow band of "good", enough so you can use the screen in bed and move around a bit.

I happen to have the WXGA+ panel with discrete graphics.

Also what is in the form of: "Whining", of the "internet" flavor. (Seriously, netbooks guys? I brought my T410 into a Microcenter, it made the pitiful little EeePCs, MSIs and HP (Convertible Tablet-Netbook things) burn in hell.) See my first impressions topic and my sarcastic video response to understand why people like to say things about Thinkpads and why they're not necessarily true.

[Puppy]

Am I the only one, or is the LCD display on the T410 just absolutely horrid?

No, that's todays standard of Lenovo quality. Are there better panels available now ? Oh yes http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=84941 But they are more expensive than the 2.99 USD thingy Lenovo is willing to use only.

Low contrast, eye strain?

Yes. It is like reading very bad photocopy of a document. That's why I can't stand any of these "new" ThinkPads. The right technology was already there and sold in million units.

[Navck]

If that was true then my T43 and every CRT around me must be inherently inferior to magical Dell and HP LCDs then?
Turn the thinklight on, your eyestrain is from your eyes trying to focus on the (Very low to no) contrast of the bezel. It'll go away just like that.

And no it isn't Puppy. Unless you happen to actually have to source LCD panels for laptops, then you have no right to say that. You have as much right as a Wikipedia user has to try to cite Wikipedia as a "perfectly valid source" in peer reviewed engineering circles to claim that (Read: None. All sorts of ugly things happen on the sourcing level, before you say anything about a 5 dollar TN panel, go check the prices to actually buy a thousand panels from a LCD manufacturer, it'll be close to 50 dollars or more per unit.)

However, if you do source LCD panels, please show us your credentials to prove it so. (No "I work for a huge company that is as big as EMC or Hitachi" please, the SSD users do this me enough already to try to prove theirselves as being better while discrediting me.)

"Technology exists", "futurists claim", "the internet"... Have no validity compared to "what can be practically sourced", "within a reasonable budget for us and the client", and "what the engineers have compromised with management and procurement."

And as much as I would like to have an ultra low power consuming high viewing angle high brightness cutting edge LCD prototype with none of the prototype quirks having an indestructible laminate for 50 dollars, I can't. (In 4:3, too. Oh how I miss how this sane aspect ratio.)

I also have no idea why people hate the T410 WXGA+ panel as much as they do because practically it isn't that noticeable compared to the Flexview panel in my T43.

[pnolan]

Navck - good point, re sourcing and it seems to be a major issue across HP, Dell etc... same type of problems with the screens, and at least Lenovo have a matte finish as standard which is half the battle.

The screen / panel issue has been beaten to death about 20 million times at this stage. I take it too seriously really it's a panel on a laptop not a matter of life and death and if your comfortable with the screen, then that's a successful laptop purchase.

To contradict myself above, I'm still in two minds over the W510 vs T410 / T410s and I want to upgrade to the current batch -Core i5/i7 refresh. There are 3 / 4 useful models I can pick in China and I'll start another thread for it here see if I can get some good feedback.

[Puppy]

And no it isn't Puppy. Unless you happen to actually have to source LCD panels for laptops, then you have no right to say that.

The source is called "demand". Lenovo have chosen to be another "Acer" or "MSI" so they no longer demands quality. Ok.

Do you think that digital camera or professional LCD monitor manufacturers are waiting if a vendor finally (accidently ?) have the desired CCD/CMOS/NMOS/EXR sensor, image processor or LCD panel type ? When there is none do they stop all production or starts to offer crappy products (as Lenovo did) only ? No. They design their own components having features they need using available technologies. The same what IBM did with real ThinkPads because they wanted it so. Lenovo managers do not want to, that's the only reason resulting in lack of "demand". Unlike digital cameras or professional LCD monitors, there is no need to research and develop any new technology in case of decent notebook displays. The technology is already developed and proven in the past. Moreover tablets still uses such panels.

I also have no idea why people hate the T410 WXGA+ panel as much as they do because practically it isn't that noticeable compared to the Flexview panel in my T43.

Because 100:1 contrast ratio versus 450:1 is more than noticeable for some people

Is Apple going to be the winner http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=87155 ?

[adam_t56]

No, that's todays standard of Lenovo quality. Are there better panels available now ? Oh yes http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=84941 But they are more expensive than the 2.99 USD thingy Lenovo is willing to use only.

So, where can one obtain an awesome display for the T410?

[Navck]

Go and find me LCD displays that are matte and not glossy from a Dell Latitude from 2006 and tell me those are actually "good." Because from my personal experience, those things sucked infinitely (Small, 2-3 degree cone of sweetspot before dimming, uneven lighting, terrible contrast.) The T43 and T410 are still lightyears ahead and unless you have some crazy idea for comparing 16:9 panels (Hey surprise, the T410 isn't 16:9 but 16:10. How does Apple do their thing? Iron death grip and beating their suppliers like a pianta before they make 1.8" HDDs at a loss.)

And actually, Nikon had to design their own sensor twice for their pro DSLR lines (D2H and D3) to get the desired properties that Sony sensors were unable to provide. You want to know a fun fact? The D200 doesn't use a Nikon sensor, they source it from Sony. Funny thing, it costs exponentially more to do things in house, go ask an engineer about that. Last time I checked, capitalism also doesn't work that way, especially with how you can suddenly get exceptions (Ex. Financial crisis, Apple being able to produce inferior laptops and sell them for a higher price, harddrives being MOSTLY margin on profit due to the massive amounts of R&D.) and other things that people ignore (Such as: Production line, experts being hired and FURTHER research into making a product be lower cost to be practical to produce without a net loss.)

[Puppy]

And actually, Nikon had to design their own sensor twice for their pro DSLR lines (D2H and D3) to get the desired properties that Sony sensors were unable to provide. You want to know a fun fact? The D200 doesn't use a Nikon sensor, they source it from Sony. Funny thing, it costs exponentially more to do things in house, go ask an engineer about that.

The cost is not important, the availability is. Lenovo way of thinking would be "that Sony sensor is not able to provide desired results, lets start to make cheap compact cameras from now only". If Leica can sell a camera for ~ 28 000 USD Lenovo could sell a ThinkPad with a +200 USD lcd panel, couldn't they ?

[Navck]

Leica is not as successful as Nikon, Canon, Pentax in terms of market saturation and practical usefulness. Also I exclude Sony from this because of what they did to theirselves from what I knew as the "good Sony of the 90s"

And by the way, good luck selling a 1,000 dollar LCD panel upgrade that doesn't even have a warranty replacement because there were so few produced and so expensive to buy anyways. Economics is still king and as much as I wish I could get IBM's Roentgen type displays in a Thinkpad it doesn't look like it'll happen. By the way, Leica still has the "premium" name associated with them, do you see pro photographers relying on Leica or Canon/Nikon? (Hint: Latter.)

[Puppy]

By the way, Leica still has the "premium" name associated with them, do you see pro photographers relying on Leica or Canon/Nikon? (Hint: Latter.)

At least pro photographers still can buy Leica. Canon/Nikon also produces pro cameras fairly better than those cheap consumer oriented high-noise ones which is similar product to TN panels in notebook display market. All I (and not only me) want is to get a chance to buy another "Canon/Nikon" notebook (again) regardless of its price.

[Navck]

I'm sorry, but most professional photographers who make a living do not buy Leica for business or personal (serious) usage but instead what is called "collecting." Please learn about economics from someone with a MBA. Your examples also are very invalid in the photography world as well.

[Puppy]

Maybe you find the point, IBM was not "successful" to hire too many of those clever MBA yuppies cutting the costs (except their own) everywhere. Ok, let's wait for a black and white displays with 100+ ms response time next year. Most of customers might not notice it.

[Navck]

Puppy, that is like saying "Somehow, the LCD manufacturers find a technology to magically make every consumer to hate them, it relies on using child sacrifices."

Please, do some ACTUAL research from inside the industry to figure out how it works.

[Puppy]

Puppy, that is like saying "Somehow, the LCD manufacturers find a technology to magically make every consumer to hate them, it relies on using child sacrifices."

Wrong. LCD manufacturers do what their customers (read notebook manufacturers) wants. For different customers they are able to make high-quality panels even in small volumes. For example NEC develops their custom panels with special A-TW polarizer for three monitor models only and LG.Display produces them. There is nothing wrong with it. Lenovo could do the same as NEC or Eizo (which uses even more rare and even more expensive panels developed by Hitachi) do.

I don't blame LCD manufacturers, I blame Lenovo for cheapening the ThinkPad brand in favor of saving a few $.

I'm just wondering when ThinkPad gets a Dell or HP or generic Clevo keyboard because a clever MBA calculates it would be a 0.40 USD cheaper per unit. When it happens Lenovo representatives will start to scream "Sorry, we no longer have your favorite keyboard supplier !". Of course, because they no longer wanted it. Sounds familiar ?

[Navck]

You surely are kidding, right? Because if you aren't, there is something you are implying with your comments besides your lack of understanding with laptops, engineering, economics and overall competence.

Last time I checked, Roentgen has not even been touched by LCD makers. As well as the 16:9 FORCEFUL FORMAT CHANGE from 4:3 due to the LCD manufacturers marketing at consumers hard enough.

Anyways why don't you buy a T30 from AlphaKilo420 (Mod on forums)? It will have that "Last True Thinkpad" quality, with "Tallscreen" technology and a flexness keyboard that isn't in the island format, it doesn't even have chassis flex! God forbid you have to buy one of these evil, OEM designed, FauxPads. He'll trade you your modern FauxPad for the T30.

Edit: Stop removing content from your post, its very low of you as with insulting professionals who become (competent) executives.

[JaneL]

OK, I think this subject has been beaten to death. Move on, all of you.

Jane


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Puppy]

You surely are kidding, right? Because if you aren't, there is something you are implying with your comments besides your lack of understanding with laptops, engineering, economics and overall competence.

Might be. I think simple: I can buy Canon EOS-1D, I can buy Eizo SX3031W or other top product in given segment having better quality and features than their predecessors. But I can't buy better notebook than my six years old R51. That's my way of thinking. If I lack some understanding there, sorry.

Edit: Stop removing content from your posts, its very low of you as with insulting professionals who become executives.

I don't remove anything.

And yes, I'm way too much off-topic there.

[Navck]

Does your R51 have an actual IPS panel? Have you actually seen a T410 with a WXGA+ panel?
If you answer no to either, then everything you have said is invalid, because you do not have the proper background ("Actually owning the machine for five years straight.") to judge the modern WXGA+ panels in the T410.

[Puppy]

Does your R51 have an actual IPS panel? Have you actually seen a T410 with a WXGA+ panel?

Yes, IDTech N150P3. Yes. And all new ThinkPads in local Lenovo showroom. I've seen many notebooks, professional CRT and LCD displays in my life

[Navck]

400:1 contrast ratio for the IPS panel
This is the closest display to one of the T410 WXGA+ panels (LP141WP3-TLA1):
http://www.lgdisplay.com/lgdhp/eng/prod ... v?seq=1143

What does this say about your 100:1, 100ms panels? (IPS panels are slower than TN panels, this is widely known.)

[JaneL]

I guess I need to work on my writing skills since both of you obviously misunderstood me when I said "move on".

Locking thread.