Anything new in the pipeline?

[marlinspike]

Back when I was into this stuff, I seem to recall that people who follow Thinkpads know what's coming before it's on the website. Is there anything new in the pipeline? I was thinking about buying a used X61t, but with the 20% off coupon I am now seriously thinking about getting an X201 (yes, I'll lose the tablet and be paying a few hundred bucks more, but I'll be getting a new comp with warranty, and just how useful is a tablet anyways?). I don't need a new computer at the moment, I could wait a month if there is something better coming out soon. So...anybody here know a reason I should wait?

[GrandMasterKhan]

Sandybridge CPUs with better power optimization at the end of the year or early next year. But with tech, if you need it buy it now as always evolving and advancing.

[marlinspike]

I agree with you on that last part, but if you had said Sandybridge CPUs coming out next month, it'd be worth waiting for, but end of year, that's just business as usual.

Now, the hardest decision of my life - used x61t, or for a few hundred bucks more new x201. I guess the x201s is gone for good from the US market?

[ZaZ]

I think you could argue the screen on a X61t is much better than the X201, though you could do the screen swap, but there goes the warranty you covet. Unless you're doing processor intensive stuff, perhaps you are, the better internals on the X201 won't have a ton of value.

[marlinspike]

The x61t in question has the multi-touch screen. Which one is a closer rival to the physical ruggedness of my T60? The X61t has the L7700 cpu. How does that compare to the T7400 in my T60? There's ~$300 price difference between the computers, but the X201 has 4gb vs 2gb, is new with warranty vs used, 320gb vs 100gb (both 7200rpm), and i5 520M vs L7700. It also looks as if the X201 is noticeably lighter? Would the i5-540M use more battery than the 520M? Speaking of which, am I right in thinking that the X61t has a battery life shorter by a couple of hours than the X201 with a comparably sized battery?

[GrandMasterKhan]

No word is the x201s will return when the component shortages abate.

[marlinspike]

Oh, then maybe I will wait a few weeks since the X201t just made a return.
EDIT: oh wait, the x201s is MORE expensive than the 201, not less...guess I won't wait then.

[ZaZ]

I've only seen the X200. I like it better than the X61, but that's me. You might get an argument the other way too. As to the performance, it really depends on what you're doing. Typical notebook usage like internet, office and media doesn't push the cpu enough to where you'd notice a major difference. Now if you're running handbrake all day, then the better core cpu in the X201 will offer an advantage. The tablets are heavier due to the tablet parts and the ips screens use more power, but offer better image quality if you care. [censored] if you do and [censored] if you don't I guess.

[marlinspike]

Well, I just bit the bullet on an X201.
i5-520M (guy said I was right in thinking this gets better battery life than the 540M)
Win7 Home Premium 64
4gb ram
Touchpad
320gb 7200rpm HDD
9 cell batt
Centrino 6300
Came out to 963.06 (darn taxes lol...pre-tax 917.20).

[GrandMasterKhan]

I saw two x201's today. Both had crooked Thinkvantage buttons. One had a space bar higher on the left than on the right. Display models but alarming. I too want to order an x201 but hesistant due to the CPU whinning stories and now I see the crooked parts. How is yours for anyone that has one? Let us know. Thanks.

[marlinspike]

I saw two x201's today. Both had crooked Thinkvantage buttons. One had a space bar higher on the left than on the right. Display models but alarming. I too want to order an x201 but hesistant due to the CPU whinning stories and now I see the crooked parts. How is yours for anyone that has one? Let us know. Thanks.

I hear you as far as crooked buttons shouldn't happen, but I'm not the type who is bothered when they do. Same goes for any noises. T60s have a way of making GPU whine when on battery mode (actually, I think it's CPU whine but I've read that it's GPU whine), which did bother me at first, then I learned that this doesn't mean there is something wrong. My philosophy is if it works, and what it is doing doesn't shorten its life, then I'm not concerned. I feel like living in Hawaii you should be similarly laid-back

I wonder if the crooked spacebar is just how it was put on. Somehow the spacebar on my T60 got higher on one side, pushing down didn't fix it, but taking it off and putting it back on did.

BTW, can the 90watt charger of my T60 be used with the x201, and if so would it charge it faster?

[GrandMasterKhan]

Braddah I'm laid back when I pay for quality and receive it. What is you own a MBZ and the hood ornament was crooked when you arrived at the dealer to pick it up. Or the side modling was at an angle rather than horizontal? Or you paid for a new suit and one pants leg was an inch longer than the other? Or your new home leaned to one side due to a problem with the foundation on one side of the land? You get the picture? All TP chargers are interchangeable with all TP machines. At least from the T61 era forward. I assume you are OK.

[marlinspike]

Braddah I'm laid back when I pay for quality and receive it. What is you own a MBZ and the hood ornament was crooked when you arrived at the dealer to pick it up. Or the side modling was at an angle rather than horizontal?

The superior Mercedes hood ornament is on a spring and a pivot (this way if it hits something it doesn't break off), so I would just align it with my hand.
Sorry, I'm a bit of an MB guy....

On the side molding, I guess you have a point, but at the end of the day these are not German-made automobiles, but Chinese-made electronics produced in what probably approaches sweatshop working conditions.

[ansible212]

On the side molding, I guess you have a point, but at the end of the day these are not German-made automobiles, but Chinese-made electronics produced in what probably approaches sweatshop working conditions.

I thought The Machine that Changed the World put paid to that particular misconception. Evidently some people still believe it.

[marlinspike]

I thought The Machine that Changed the World put paid to that particular misconception. Evidently some people still believe it.

Eh, when you're talking about the era of MB I'm into (pre-1986), they're German-made.

EDIT: should have read the blurb about the book before assuming what it was about. I'll say this - as someone who works on cars, and has worked on all sorts of cars (never let your friends know that you enjoy working cars, you end up doing all sorts of stuff for free, and you'll learn that there are many cars which are not enjoyable to work on), they are made better, plain and simple. This is not the same as saying they have better components (I'm sure everybody knows about MB's 90's-late2000's electronics), but the way they are put together is better. They also do things that most people will never appreciate (for instance, the procedure they use to finish their cylinder bores) that add a lot to cost, but little to the average user's experience (let's face it, most people know nothing about cars, and would never notice being down on compression). An efficient production system is different from a good one if you care about the product and not profit (which I can't say MB does anymore, though they have claimed they're trying to start doing this again).

[ansible212]

Eh, when you're talking about the era of MB I'm into (pre-1986), they're German-made.

EDIT: should have read the blurb about the book before assuming what it was about. I'll say this - as someone who works on cars, and has worked on all sorts of cars (never let your friends know that you enjoy working cars, you end up doing all sorts of stuff for free, and you'll learn that there are many cars which are not enjoyable to work on), If an employee volunteers for redundancy from a post that has been identified as being at risk of redundancy the voluntary redundancy request will be accepted. Redundancy payments and notice periods etc will apply as previously detailed above.. This is not the same as saying they have better components (I'm sure everybody knows about MB's 90's-late2000's electronics), but the way they are put together is better. They also do things that most people will never appreciate (for instance, the procedure they use to finish their cylinder bores) that add a lot to cost, but little to the average user's experience (let's face it, most people know nothing about cars, and would never notice being down on compression). An efficient production system is different from a good one if you care about the product and not profit (which I can't say MB does anymore, though they have claimed they're trying to start doing this again).

But that's one of the salient lessons of TMTCTW. Research conducted by the authors who are world-renowned experts in lean techniques found that the most efficient lean factories could make fault-free vehicles in less time than a German factory (belonging to a prestige German brand) took to rectify faults at the end of the production line. The research conclusively showed that quality has no cost.

At least in Europe, Ford quality (for example the German-made Mondeo) is every bit the equal of Audi, MB or BMW, in both terms of build quality and performance.

Interesting anecdote: I was talking to a lean consultant who used to work at Rolls Royce (the aero engine division). He said that teaching the Chinese is very interesting. They learn by doing, as opposed to the Western approach of learning through, well learning about it (cf The Knowing-Doing Gap). He said that he'd turned up in China expecting a class of five and had sixty in the room. They implemented what they learned overnight, which is stark contrast to the way in which western companies would do things.

The ThinkPad I'm typing this on is testament to this approach: ordered online, built to order and shipped direct from the factory to my door by UPS in around two weeks. That's lean in action, and why western economies are in for a huge shock as the overall quality of Chinese manufacturing increases and the big-ticket items (such as cars) start to be exported to an unsuspecting world.

[marlinspike]

But that's one of the salient lessons of TMTCTW. Research conducted by the authors who are world-renowned experts in lean techniques found that the most efficient lean factories could make fault-free vehicles in less time than a German factory (belonging to a prestige German brand) took to rectify faults at the end of the production line. The research conclusively showed that quality has no cost.

At least in Europe, Ford quality (for example the German-made Mondeo) is every bit the equal of Audi, MB or BMW, in both terms of build quality and performance.

Interesting anecdote: I was talking to a lean consultant who used to work at Rolls Royce (the aero engine division). He said that teaching the Chinese is very interesting. They learn by doing, as opposed to the Western approach of learning through, well learning about it (cf The Knowing-Doing Gap). He said that he'd turned up in China expecting a class of five and had sixty in the room. They implemented what they learned overnight, which is stark contrast to the way in which western companies would do things.

The ThinkPad I'm typing this on is testament to this approach: ordered online, built to order and shipped direct from the factory to my door by UPS in around two weeks. That's lean in action, and why western economies are in for a huge shock as the overall quality of Chinese manufacturing increases and the big-ticket items (such as cars) start to be exported to an unsuspecting world.

Of course, if it weren't for lean manufacturing, you'd have that Thinkpad even faster, because they'd have a stockpile in a room somewhere. Granted, costs would be hire so prices would too, but it would in fact be a higher level of service.

As far as quality has no cost - every non-German car that I had the displeasure of opening the interior on, you can tell the wires are put in place at the harness, and then simply tugged to their location, rather than being laid in place. You'll find a lot more plastic snaps and a lot fewer screws and bolts, and you'll find that while they come apart and go back together more quickly, they also go back together a little bit less securely than the time prior. Maybe this just comes from working with my hands, but I don't care what some bean-counters tell me their research has found, I look at the product and decide for myself. Perhaps making a car with the appearance of quality has no cost, or making a car that seems like quality in our throw-away world has no cost, but making actual quality costs. It comes down to what do you consider a fault-free vehicle? If it's one that works perfectly when it comes off the assembly lines, but has wood (let's just pretend it has wood for a moment) that comes from different parts of the tree, or maybe even different trees, a chassis devoid of high strength steel and you have to remember to open the doors before you put the car up on stands, and has a block that continuously slowly loses compression after an initial period, then I guess I'd agree.

Heck, one thing that costs is to make an engine bay that is well designed for servicing and repairing. This one seems to be more a Nissan and GM issue than any issue of national origin though.

[GrandMasterKhan]

I just think a button that is evenly aligned is not too much to ask. lol. It really is expected.

[marlinspike]

Quiet you, we're talking about cars here! What do you think this is, some kind of laptop forum....oh.......wait.....

[ansible212]

Of course, if it weren't for lean manufacturing, you'd have that Thinkpad even faster, because they'd have a stockpile in a room somewhere. Granted, costs would be hire so prices would too, but it would in fact be a higher level of service.

I wager that I wouldn't have it significantly faster and I doubt that the service would be better. But it would certainly cost more. (I remember looking at X series prices back in 2001 when I bought my A30 in disbelief.)

(A case in point is my HP monitor. Shipped from an online retailer in the UK. Courier messed up the delivery and if I hadn't played my face over it, it would have taken even longer to have arrive than it did.)

By quality, the authors are referring to faults during production. Analysis of factories around the world showed that the most efficient lean factories (i.e. those that produced the most cars) also produced cars with the least faults. Of course, there are also efficient factories that produce cars with lots of faults (i.e. "low" quality) just as there's also "high" quality that are inefficient.

It really is a very interesting, insightful book and eminently readable.

[marlinspike]

I'll be honest, I don't really care for lean production by itself. It's what leads to things like 3 week waits for a mass produced item (Benchmade knives does lean production, and you'll wait 6 weeks for a knife at times). However, lean production PLUS distributors works well, though I wonder if inserting a middle man more than makes up for the cost-savings of lean production.

Anyways GrandMasterKahn, I'll post up whether I can detect misalignments and whine when I get my X201 if you're willing to wait that long (currently says 6/10 ship date, though in my experience the first ship date is always way off.

[ansible212]

I'll be honest, I don't really care for lean production by itself. It's what leads to things like 3 week waits for a mass produced item (Benchmade knives does lean production, and you'll wait 6 weeks for a knife at times). However, lean production PLUS distributors works well, though I wonder if inserting a middle man more than makes up for the cost-savings of lean production.

Actually, lean is rather passée these days. Last thing I heard the money was on agile production. Just another opportunity for consultants to earn more money, I suppose.

(Final anecdote from the lean consultant. He was delivering lean to Boeing, and halfway through a Boeing employee mentioned that this was precisely what they were doing during the Second World War when they were churning out B17s by the dozen. They were 'relearning' lost skills and techniques. Ironic really when the Toyota Production System on which lean is based was also a direct result of the war... in fact a direct result of the destruction to the manufacturing base.)