My X200 -- now with 100% more *PVA* LCD!

[ThinkRob]

Today, the kind man from FedEx dropped off my latest Chinese import: a Samsung LTN121AP02 panel.

This panel is WXGA, but with some impressive specs: a 1000:1 contrast ratio (compared to the 500:1 of the Boe-Hydis panel), viewing angles that are comparable (85 vs. 89), and a substantially-lower pricetag ( < $100 for NIB from an eBay seller). Like the HV121WX4, it is a drop-in replacement.

Several observations:

1) There is a slight, but very noticeable whine from the inverter post-install. I suspect this is due to a higher draw, but given that I was unable to find a datasheet for the Samsung panel, I cannot confirm this. It doesn't seem to pose a problem heat-wise (the area above the inverter doesn't feel much warmer than I recall it used to) but I will obviously keep an eye on this.

2) The blacks are *black*. Black levels seem comparable to the FlexView on my T43p, if not deeper! The viewing angles aren't quite as good as the T43p though -- at extremes, the backlight looks a bit uneven towards the bottom. That said, I'm only really referring to the extremes here; at any reasonable angle -- even from the angles common in group demonstrations -- the display looks absolutely gorgeous.

3) The infamous PVA wide-angle color-shift is there, but is nowhere near as pronounced as I expected. It's visible if you know what to look for, but given that the family members I mentioned the phenomenon to were unable to observe it, I count it more as a minor nitpick than a serious problem. (Edit: after further examination, I'm not actually sure if I'm seeing much of a shift at all... I could just be imagining it since I'm aware of the phenomenon...)

4) Colors are absolutely gorgeous. Photos look worlds better than they did on the Toshiba-badged panel that it replaced.

5) There is no visible banding on gradients of any color. I know it must be using dithering (since it's a 262K panel), but you'd never know it to look at it.

6) It's heavier than the panel that it replaced, by quite a substantial amount. It's not enough to change the weight balance of the computer, but the X200 is definitely a bit heftier after the install.

7) It's matte. Real matte too, no overlay required.

8) The inverter leads are substantially longer than the ones on the panel it replaced. As a result, I had to coil the cable and lay it under the panel. No idea whether this is related to the whine, but I'd doubt it...

9) The display has a Lenovo-style part number on it, but no FRU -- the space next to the "FRU" field is blank. Odd... From a quick e-mail to George, and from what I can find on the Web, I believe it to be a PVA panel, but (again, due to the lack of a datasheet) I cannot confirm this with any certainty. Interestingly enough, the EDID data is thoroughly unhelpful in identifying the display: the VendorName attribute is simply "LEN", while the ModelName is "LEN:1040". Perhaps these indicate that the display is a Lenovo-only one?

Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures, since I lack a camera decent enough to do the panel justice. That said, I am quite happy with the replacement, and barring any sudden inverter-related issues, would definitely recommend it as an alternate upgrade for those wishing to make the X200's display tolerable.

Cheers,
Rob

[ThinkRob]

Interesting...

Another observation: the inverter whine decreases inversely proportional to the brightness, and disappears at the highest backlight setting. Guess it did have something to do with power draw after all. I wonder if the inverter itself just picked this time to start its departure from this earth...?

[LegendaryKA8]

It could very well be an inverter issue... thankfully they're not all that hard to replace. I need to do mine here pretty soon(I just got my X200 back from warranty today complaining about the inverter... they replaced the motherboard of all things, and I still get the inverter buzz ).

Mind if I ask where you sourced your screen? If it's a good alternative to the AFFS, I might consider getting one. I really want a matte screen versus a glossy, and the only reasonably priced AFFS displays are all glossy. Ergh.

[ThinkRob]

Mind if I ask where you sourced your screen? If it's a good alternative to the AFFS, I might consider getting one. I really want a matte screen versus a glossy, and the only reasonably priced AFFS displays are all glossy. Ergh.

Sure. I got the panel from a seller on eBay whom I bargained down considerably from the "Buy It Now" price. I've found that China and Hong Kong sellers are almost always receptive to bargaining via private messages. Looking on eBay right now, it appears that the only seller selling the panels is thinkpad_2007, whom I've had a number of pleasant dealings with in the past (he's consistently provided accurately-described, new parts at a good price.)

As far as an alternative to AFFS, I can't really say. It's superior on paper, but since I don't own an AFFS display, I can't do a direct comparison.

As far as the inverter, the fact that I only noticed it after I replaced the panel makes me wonder if it's related. I suppose I could buy one, replace it, and see if that changes anything. Guess I should start looking for a cheap one. Sigh. A modder's work is never done.

[ThinkRob]

Update:

After doing some side-by-side comparisons with my T43p, I have to say that black levels are definitely better with the Samsung panel.

[ZaZ]

We need some pics, please.

[ThinkRob]

We need some pics, please.

Unfortunately, the only camera at my immediate disposal is that of my phone (Nokia E71), which couldn't white-balance its way out of a paper bag. I can try to take some shots later tonight, but honestly the camera's pretty rubbish, so I don't know how well they'll turn out.

[penartur]

Well, the contrast, viewing angles and brightness of this panel are really great (although i cannot tell the difference with HV121WX4-100 i had before); however, i'm experiencing the weird color problems. It's like the display is configured to extremely cool color temperature; some colors are extremely unnatural.
#F3F0DF for example: it is supposed to look like yellow, but on that samsung it is more like brown with some shade of pink.

[ThinkRob]

Well, the contrast, viewing angles and brightness of this panel are really great (although i cannot tell the difference with HV121WX4-100 i had before); however, i'm experiencing the weird color problems. It's like the display is configured to extremely cool color temperature; some colors are extremely unnatural.
#F3F0DF for example: it is supposed to look like yellow, but on that samsung it is more like brown with some shade of pink.

Odd. Mine certainly doesn't suffer from that. I haven't calibrated my screen, but in comparison to the other machines I've got lying around nothing seems amiss.

[penartur]

Odd. Mine certainly doesn't suffer from that. I haven't calibrated my screen, but in comparison to the other machines I've got lying around nothing seems amiss.

What color do you see on http://penartur.narod.ru/x200.html ?
Light pink/brown (as do i), or yellow (as it should be)?

I'm only noticing the problem on some light colors; solid red, green and blue are looking okay, movies are looking okay etc.

[ThinkRob]

Light pink/brown (as do i), or yellow (as it should be)?

It looks like a very mild yellow with just the tiniest reddish hue -- about what I'd expect F3F0DF to look like.

It looks about the same as it does on my T43p -- perhaps just a bit less yellow -- although that *is* calibrated (at least somewhat; I haven't used a Spyder or anything, but I have done some basic calibration).

[penartur]

It looks like a very mild yellow with just the tiniest reddish hue -- about what I'd expect F3F0DF to look like.

It looks about the same as it does on my T43p -- perhaps just a bit less yellow -- although that *is* calibrated (at least somewhat; I haven't used a Spyder or anything, but I have done some basic calibration).

This is a very strange thing. I've purchased my panel from thinkpad_2007 on ebay, it is definitely non-TN one, but F3F0DF is looking completely different from what it should be.
It doesn't concern me much, because i'm not working with colors, but it is annoying.

[ThinkRob]

This is a very strange thing. I've purchased my panel from thinkpad_2007 on ebay, it is definitely non-TN one, but F3F0DF is looking completely different from what it should be.
It doesn't concern me much, because i'm not working with colors, but it is annoying.

One thing to consider: I have no idea what X11 does w/ regards to color calibration. I don't run Windows, and I haven't done any sort of calibration on the X200, so it's possible -- nay, probable -- that our displays are calibrated differently.

Have you done any calibration on yours?

[crashnburn]

Odd. Mine certainly doesn't suffer from that. I haven't calibrated my screen, but in comparison to the other machines I've got lying around nothing seems amiss.

What color do you see on http://penartur.narod.ru/x200.html ?
Light pink/brown (as do i), or yellow (as it should be)?

I'm only noticing the problem on some light colors; solid red, green and blue are looking okay, movies are looking okay etc.

I see a light brown / cream / sand color.. on my Gateway.. which has amazing picture views

[khtse]

You need to calibrate your screen.

The display profile installed on the X200 is calibrate for the screens that Lenovo put on the X200. When I first installed the HV121WX4-120 on my X200, the color looked way too warm, probably due to the fact that the color on the original screen was much cooler. I used my Spyder 3 Pro to calibrate it and since then it looks perfect.

[ThinkRob]

You need to calibrate your screen.

The display profile installed on the X200 is calibrate for the screens that Lenovo put on the X200. When I first installed the HV121WX4-120 on my X200, the color looked way too warm, probably due to the fact that the color on the original screen was much cooler. I used my Spyder 3 Pro to calibrate it and since then it looks perfect.

Yeah, I tend to think that calibration is the solution here. I don't have the equipment to do a real calibration, but since it's not critical that I get perfect color I don't mind.

[crashnburn]

You need to calibrate your screen.

The display profile installed on the X200 is calibrate for the screens that Lenovo put on the X200. When I first installed the HV121WX4-120 on my X200, the color looked way too warm, probably due to the fact that the color on the original screen was much cooler. I used my Spyder 3 Pro to calibrate it and since then it looks perfect.

Hmm.. I guess.. Im also running the Gateway at the lowest brightness.. and its still might bright & big for me eyes..

[forests_gump]

On a different note:
Recently I check-out some HD-LCD TV at retail showrooms.

I notice Samsungs LCD TV have very impressive clarity, contrast, the deep black is superb, when compare to other brands of same generation. Given the obvious low price, they are flying off the shelfs like hot cakes.

However, suddenly I notice, the picture seems unreal. Thus I change the display mode from Vivid to normal for Samsung and other brands, I saw distinct comparison.Samsung picture look terrible & yellowish, while other brands look less vivid but natural.

Somehow, I felt Samsung LCD Panel isn't that great, maybe they did some intensive image processing done on chip (bring out clarity, contrast & deep black), in order to compensate some Samsung Panel characteristics. In doing these processing, I guess it also bring about side-effects are the unnatural color)

[crashnburn]

On a different note:
Recently I check-out some HD-LCD TV at retail showrooms.

I notice Samsungs LCD TV have very impressive clarity, contrast, the deep black is superb, when compare to other brands of same generation. Given the obvious low price, they are flying off the shelfs like hot cakes.

However, suddenly I notice, the picture seems unreal. Thus I change the display mode from Vivid to normal for Samsung and other brands, I saw distinct comparison.Samsung picture look terrible & yellowish, while other brands look less vivid but natural.

Somehow, I felt Samsung LCD Panel isn't that great, maybe they did some intensive image processing done on chip (bring out clarity, contrast & deep black), in order to compensate some Samsung Panel characteristics. In doing these processing, I guess it also bring about side-effects are the unnatural color)

Interesting. Any of the LCD freaks here got any observations on the TV markets / panels?

[penartur]

By the way, i currently can do side-by-side comparison with Kohjinsha SH6 (i purchased it a couple of years ago and then gave it to my parents). Kohjinsha SH6 is a sort of netbook, produced a way before asus made their first EEE - 7", sub-1kg, Intel A100 CPU.
The screen type of SH6 is TN (i was able to detect it by colors inverting when looking from about 45 degrees downwards), but it has a WLED backlight. And this particular screen is really gorgeous - whites are a lot brighter than on both LTN121AP02 and HV121WX4, blacks are really blacks, not a dark gray as on LTN121AP02 and HV121WX4, and colors seems to be more pure than on my X200. The only drawback of Kohjinsha screen is that colors are inverted when looking from 40 to 60 degrees downwards. Horizontal viewing angles are full, and vertical viewing angle when looking upwards is full. I'd replaced LTN121AP02 or HV121WX4 with that sort of TN undoubtely.
From what i have seen, X20x LED-backlit screens are not better than CCFL-backlit ones (that means "worse than everything you saw in your life).
Could there be any similar screens compatible with X201/X201s?

PS: Please, forgive me my bad English...

[erik]

From what i have seen, X20x LED-backlit screens are not better than CCFL-backlit ones (that means "worse than everything you saw in your life).

i have a Hydis AFFS+ LED panel in my X200T and it's as good as the Hydis AFFS CCFL panel i had in my X61sxga+ conversion and SXGA+ X61T.

Could there be any similar screens compatible with X201/X201s?

yes, you can use X200 CCFL components (LCD, inverter, and cable) in an X201/X201s to perform the conversion.

[penartur]

i have a Hydis AFFS+ LED panel in my X200T and it's as good as the Hydis AFFS CCFL panel i had in my X61sxga+ conversion and SXGA+ X61T.

I was saying about stock X200s/X201/X201s TN LED-backlit screen, sorry for not making it clear

I know i can replace LED-backlit TN screen in X201/X201s with CCFL-backlit AFFS one (HV121WX4 for example), the question was whether there are other quality screen options (i had both HV121WX4 and LTN121AP02 in my X200s, and these are okay; but the TN screen used in Kohjinsha SH6 is really gorgeous).

[penartur]

I've took a set of photos with comparison of LTN121AP02 PVA screen in X200s and TN one in Kohjinsha SH06, both displaying SMPTE color bars:









(pics are clickable; both screens are at their max. brightness)
I'm sorry about this photos quality, i had no camera at hand, only my cellphone. I believe that the difference can easily be seen between this two screens; the most noticeable differences are IMHO on that blue and yellow horizontal bars on the left near the bottom, and on the brightness overall (with blacks on KJS being as dark or even more darker as on X200s).
KJS screen type is obviously TN (the most clear evidence is leftmost two vertical bars on the top on picture two), but i'd undoubtely prefer that TN over the both PVA LTN121AP02 and AFFS HV121WX4. Color reproduction and contrast are awesome.
I'm going to disassemble KJS tomorrow, maybe it will allow me to determine screen's manufacturer.

[penartur]

I've disassembled KJS today, here is the photo of screen's back: http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4509/pen ... 0f4e8_orig
Screen's part number is LMS700JF01-001, it seems from the google that it is made by Samsung. There is no information about viewing angles in datasheet i've found. Claimed contrast ratio is 350:1 and claimed luminace is 280nit, compared to LTN121AP02's 1000:1 and 210 nit. Well, it is possible that white on LMS700JF01 is just 1.33 times brighter than on LTN121AP02 (although i've thought it is more brighter), but black on LMS700JF is definitely as dark or even darker than on LTN121AP02, and it means that real contrast ratio of LMS700JF01 is at least 1.33 times higher than of LTN121AP02. Either i've got some defective LTN121AP02 or claimed contrast ratio of 1000:1 is a fake. However, i don't see huge difference between LTN121AP02 and HV121WX4 in terms of contrast and luminace, so latter seems to be true.
Also, it seems that LMS700JF01 is essentially the other name for LMS700WS screen. Maybe there are some LMS-series 12.1" screens that are compatible with LED-backlit X20*.

[ThinkRob]

I'm slightly confused as to how you measured contrast ratios. Personally I think Samsung's contrast ratio measurements are always a bit screwy, but I have a tough time believing that a Samsung TN panel produces a better black than a Samsung PVA panel -- and (at least to me) in the photos you posted it looks like the reverse is true.

[penartur]

I'm slightly confused as to how you measured contrast ratios. Personally I think Samsung's contrast ratio measurements are always a bit screwy, but I have a tough time believing that a Samsung TN panel produces a better black than a Samsung PVA panel -- and (at least to me) in the photos you posted it looks like the reverse is true.

I cannot say that blacks are better on TN, as they are very close on this two panels. However, white is definitely brighter on TN, thus resulting in a higher contrast ratio.
I didn't measured contrast ratios directly, i've just did some calculations: black seems to be the same or slightly better in case of TN; according to datasheets, whites are 1.33x brighter on TN, and i cannot say that number is definitely wrong; so that means that TN contrast ratio is 1.33x higher. Of course, this is very relative and rough approximation; but be it 1.2 or 1.5, it is definitely not 0.35 like said in datasheet.

[ThinkRob]

I cannot say that blacks are better on TN, as they are very close on this two panels. However, white is definitely brighter on TN, thus resulting in a higher contrast ratio.

I see. Well Samsung has certainly been known to take advantage of that fact to produce TN panels with high contrast ratios. As I recall, a couple of their 4:3 LCDs had obscenely high contrast ratios which were achieved by running the backlights well above spec. The result: bright, bright whites and a high contrast ratio... at the cost of a shortened backlight lifespan.

I'd be interested to see procedure Samsung uses for contrast ratio measurement, since this isn't the first time I've found myself wondering how the heck they came up with the numbers that they did...

[penartur]

As I recall, a couple of their 4:3 LCDs had obscenely high contrast ratios which were achieved by running the backlights well above spec.

Just improving the backlight won't change contrast ratio. E.g. when backlight is 2x more powerful, not only whites are 2x more bright, but also blacks are 2x more bright, so the contrast ratio remains the same.
Contrast ratio is something that depends of matrix; it is the ratio of what part of light will open pixel let through, and what part of light will closed pixel let through.
However, high brightness is also an advantage, as it gives an opportunity to choose between bright and dark screens.

[ThinkRob]

Just improving the backlight won't change contrast ratio. E.g. when backlight is 2x more powerful, not only whites are 2x more bright, but also blacks are 2x more bright, so the contrast ratio remains the same.

I'm not so sure about that. Yes, increasing the brightness will lighten the appearance of black, but I'm not sure it's a linear change like you're suggesting (meaning a darkened pixel with a backlight of power L behind it will not necessarily be a shade of gray that is 50% as bright as a darkened pixel with a backlight of power 2L.)

[penartur]

I'm not so sure about that. Yes, increasing the brightness will lighten the appearance of black, but I'm not sure it's a linear change like you're suggesting (meaning a darkened pixel with a backlight of power L behind it will not necessarily be a shade of gray that is 50% as bright as a darkened pixel with a backlight of power 2L.)

AFAIK LCD pixels work by blocking some portion of light, dependent of pixel state. E.g. black "closed" pixel may block 99% of backlight, and white pixel may block 30% of backlight, resulting in 70:1 contrast ratio. Thus, with backlight of power L, black color brightness will be 0.01L, and with backlight of power 2L, black color brightness will be 0.02L.
You can think of it as of tinted glass.