Panasonic vs. Sanyo batteries

[vinuneuro]

Is there a big difference in longevity between the two?

[dr_st]

Short story - Panasonics seem to hold significantly better over time than Sanyos.

Long story:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51609
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=76365

I have a T60 from my work. Many of my workers got their T61s several months after me. Their computers came with 7-cell Sanyo batteries. By now, those T61s which are still used have had their batteries replaced to newer 9-cells - always because the batteries either died completely or degraded to a miserable runtime. I am still on my original 9-cell Panasonic, holding ~72/84Wh capacity.

[vinuneuro]

It'd be helpful if 'battery' wasn't a blocked word in the search function. Those are very useful threads, thanks.

So do Sanyo batteries perform that well the first couple years or do they just mislead power manager about available capacity?

Would you buy a refurbished Panasonic battery from Lenovo? What does refurbished mean when it comes to Lenovo batteries, replaced cells?

[AIX]

I can tell you that my Sanyo battery doesn't age very well:

manufacture date: 2009-11-09
first use date: 2010-02
cycle count: 25
design capacity: 56.16 Wh
full charge capacity: 50.08 Wh

As you can see, it loosed ~10% of its capacity in only 6 months and 25 cycles (in fact, more than 10%, I remember it started from 57-58 Wh if I'm not wrong)! This rate of degradation seems too fast to me.

[Radioguy]

I believe my original flush 4-cell was a Sanyo. It didn't last very long.

Would you buy a refurbished Panasonic battery from Lenovo? What does refurbished mean when it comes to Lenovo batteries, replaced cells?

Theoretically, they can be exactly that. Yet, according to Lenovo reps I've spoken to, they are "usually" unused returns. (Take that as you will)

I will say, that after hearing that and going forward, the battery I received from the outlet looked band new, and was cycle-free. Of course, that could have been reset, but, I think I read a post here of someone receiving a low-cycle one from the outlet, so that complicates things. If I'm remembering the account correctly, it lends credence to mine being new (why not reset both, if they did mine?), but then also means that not all are unused.

Going by the rubric on the site:

New:
Order Canceled and never shipped
Factory direct excess
Redistributed
Product shipped and returned unopened
Factory seal was not broken by customer
Product never used by customer

Refurbished:
Product returned with factory seal broken
Product may or may not have been turned on
Product may or may not have been used

Scratch & Dent:
Product returned with factory seal broken
Product may or may not have been turned on
Product may or may not have been used
Product has been refurbished.
Product has cosmetic blemishes

So, technically, that says that their definition doesn't include repairing or rebuilding an item, as the "worst-case-scenario" of refurbishment can mean.

Either way, the refurb packaging is quite off-putting. There's a lot of tape and labels proclaiming it's a refurb so as not to be confused with a new item, and make sure everyone knows it. When I got mine and unpacked the shipping box, my first thought was that I had been sent biohazardous materials like someone's cancerous kidney.

It works beautifully, though. I couldn't be happier....and yes, it's a Panasonic.

[Troels]

For the record i bought a (cheap) NOS 6-cell Panasonic batery pack for my T60p (original Lenovo and everything) - which was manufactured 2008-10-18. My first use date was 2010-05, design capacity is 56.16 Wh. It has 19 charge-recharge cycles and has a full charge capacity of 52.88 Wh. Not too bad considering age i think.

Another possibility might be to open up an old, used-up battery pack and replace the cells yourself. That way you can use whatever cells you want (requires soldering). I have not tried it myself, but inside the T60 batteries, theres a combined microcontroller+eeprom with the marking bq80201DBT. I might do a guide at some point - using Be2Works (http://be2works.com), but i don't have much time, nor the need for a new battery right now.

[lstratos]

Yeah all my sanyo degrades a lot faster.. i'm still using 2 panasonic battery thats over 3 years old and holds around 95-97% of the charge.. they're awesome

[andy2000]

For the record i bought a (cheap) NOS 6-cell Panasonic batery pack for my T60p (original Lenovo and everything) - which was manufactured 2008-10-18. My first use date was 2010-05, design capacity is 56.16 Wh. It has 19 charge-recharge cycles and has a full charge capacity of 52.88 Wh. Not too bad considering age i think.

Another possibility might be to open up an old, used-up battery pack and replace the cells yourself. That way you can use whatever cells you want (requires soldering). I have not tried it myself, but inside the T60 batteries, theres a combined microcontroller+eeprom with the marking bq80201DBT. I might do a guide at some point - using Be2Works (http://be2works.com), but i don't have much time, nor the need for a new battery right now.

I have replaced the cells in Thinkpad batteries, and it can be done, but I don't recommend it. It requires some tricky soldering with live cells. One wrong move and you can short something out and ruin the controller, or cause a fire. Also, if you don't put it back together perfectly, something could short out down the line (if some insulation wears through) and cause a fire.

You have to disconnect and reconnect the cells in the right sequence, or the controller will blow the fuse and deactivate itself. Normally, you connect negative first, then the positive of each cell in sequence (starting with the first cell). I've never tried to reprogram one that has been deactivated. It's best to catch it before the cells are totally bad, then it will learn the new capacity after some reconditioning cycles. The safest way to do it is to keep the old cells connected until the new ones have been connected.

I'm currently using a Sony 9 cell T60 battery that had very few cycles, but had lost most of its capacity. Each reconditioning cycle made things worse, so I decided to try to replace the cells. I replaced them with some LG electronics cells from a pair of new old stock Apple powerbook G4 batteries I had on hand and would never use for anything. They were labeled as samples from a trade show in 2003. Despite being 6 years old, they settled out at 75wh after many reconditioning cycles, and have been holding there for over a year. I don't know if all LG batteries are that good, but I would try them again.

After replacing cells, most battery controllers will learn the capacity of the new cells, but it can take 10 or more cycles to do it. There's a built in maximum capacity change (usually 20-30%). You can figure it out by keeping track of the full charge capacity after each cycle.

[Radioguy]

Is it impossible to reset the chip once Battery Monitor reports the battery has failed due to wear?

I still have my original 4-cell, via which (at its cost) I learned a valuable lesson in conservation. I would like to recell it at some point, and so I have held on to it. Is there any hope I still can? What would it entail?

[Troels]

I have replaced the cells in Thinkpad batteries, and it can be done, but I don't recommend it. It requires some tricky soldering with live cells. One wrong move and you can short something out and ruin the controller, or cause a fire.

Already learned that the hard way... 9V NiCD or NiMH are dangerous since they are so easy to short out. But yes, this is one of my big concerns, since LiIon always come pre-charged (or they used to, atleast). So in case of the 6 cell battery it must be three cells in series, and then two of these series in parallel.
I'm not sure why it should matter if i connect - before + first to the controller, since voltage is a potential always measured with reference to something... but nevermind now as i havne't had more time to look into the project. I'm glad to hear that it's possible at least - and also possible to disassemble the battery pack enclosure without deforming it to much

After replacing cells, most battery controllers will learn the capacity of the new cells, but it can take 10 or more cycles to do it. There's a built in maximum capacity change (usually 20-30%). You can figure it out by keeping track of the full charge capacity after each cycle.

That's great to know at least. My plan was to do a complete reprogram, to reset amount of cycles and potentially change the manufacturer name and insert the correct date of production for the new cells. Not sure if i'm allowed to post details about this, when i think about it - one could use this to lie about the cell production date and claim a warranty replacement when the capacity becomes too low

Radioguy,
Keep the 4 cell battery - there's always hope. You can be our guinea pig in this field of re-programming the memory

[Radioguy]

I'm all ears...and my PM inbox is far from full.

[Unknown_K]

My old batteries that still charge seem to be made from panasonic cells T2x/390 series thinkpads, the other brands are dead. I dont think earlier systems let you know anything about the cells. I still have 760 and 770 series batteries that last for hours and they look to be original IBM that show no markings of being recelled, not bad for LION batteries that are supposed to have a shelf life of 6 years.

[ZaZ]

If one were to buy a battery, are there specific part numbers for both batteries so you could differentiate between the two? For example if I were to get the four-cell battery for my X200, is there a Panasonic and a Sanyo four cell battery?

[dr_st]

The HMM for X20x shows one FRU for a 4-cell, 2 for a 6-cell, 5 for a 9-cell.

Previous HMMs would list the makers of each FRU (Panasonic/Sanyo/Sony). This one doesn't seem to.

[ZaZ]

I noticed that too. I have the 9 cell for my X200. I'd like to pick up the 4 cell to lighten the load and I only need a couple of hours of battery life at a time. My 9 cell must be one of the Sanyos cause it's at 77/84w after six months of usage and I don't use my notebook a ton. It still goes 7 plus hours, but that seems kind of like a lot. I'd like to get a Panasonic for the 4 cell, which would hopefully last longer and I could save the big battery for when I need it.

[dr_st]

77/84Wh after 6 months is quite possible for a Panasonic.

The thing is after 24 months it can still be about 74Wh.

Whereas Sanyo can still show 83Wh after 6 months, and degrade to 50Wh after 24.

[andy2000]

...
I'm not sure why it should matter if i connect - before + first to the controller, since voltage is a potential always measured with reference to something... but nevermind now as i havne't had more time to look into the project. I'm glad to hear that it's possible at least - and also possible to disassemble the battery pack enclosure without deforming it to much

...
That's great to know at least. My plan was to do a complete reprogram, to reset amount of cycles and potentially change the manufacturer name and insert the correct date of production for the new cells. Not sure if i'm allowed to post details about this, when i think about it - one could use this to lie about the cell production date and claim a warranty replacement when the capacity becomes too low

Radioguy,
Keep the 4 cell battery - there's always hope. You can be our guinea pig in this field of re-programming the memory

The order you connect the new cells matters because the battery controller has a circuit that is supposed to detect if any one of the cells is over voltage (a very dangerous situation for Li-Ion). It does this by monitoring the voltage across each of the cells and blowing a fuse if it detects a problem. If you connect the cells in the wrong order, it can trip this circuit and blow the fuse.

I've found most Thinkpad batteries fairly easy to disassemble without destroying them compared to other laptop batteries.

It's possible to reprogram it, but it will require the right software. I've never found anything that was free, or cheap enough for the small number of batteries I would reprogram. Most modern batteries have an EEPROM built into the controller chip, so you can't just use an EEPROM programmer. I have had some luck reprogramming older batteries with a separate EEPROM, but no T60 battery would be like that.

[TTY]

If one were to buy a battery, are there specific part numbers for both batteries so you could differentiate between the two? For example if I were to get the four-cell battery for my X200, is there a Panasonic and a Sanyo four cell battery?

The four-cell battery for the X200 seems to be Sanyo.

[dr_st]

The more I think of it, the more the findings suggest to me that a class action lawsuit against IBM/Lenovo would not be out of order in this case. And had I been in the US, I'd consider.

Outsourcing parts to a few different vendors is not only acceptable, it is almost obligatory. However, in this case, they sell, under the same part number, and the same specification, two different products (actually 3, but let's leave the rare and constantly recalled Sony batteries out of it), one of which is clearly and vastly inferior to the other in terms of longetivity.

As a buyer of a new Thinkpad, you have no idea what you're getting, and no way to control it. Same if you buy a battery through any official channel - they go by part number, not FRU.

Putting sudden death aside, it turns out that if you were lucky to get a Panasonic, your battery will likely be almost as good as new after 3 or even 4+ years. If you were unlucky with a Sanyo, you can expect serious degradation after 2 years, and almost 0 chance of having even 50% of the original capacity remaining after 3. Which means you will be forced to buy a new battery every 2-3 years if you care about mobility at all. And then you wonder why warranties on batteries are only 1 year.

Then again, most people will probably upgrade by then and not care enough.

[RealBlackStuff]

Not to be outdone:
I have a T23 battery which is (oh horror!) a cheap Chinese knock-off.
I bought this in 2005 and started using it in 2005/07.
The original Design was 47.60mAh.
As of today it has 200 cycles.
As of today, it still has a full charge of 47.60mAh and runs well over 3 hours.
It's battery cells (according to battery-info) are made by some unknown company FLT.

[TTY]

Same if you buy a battery through any official channel - they go by part number, not FRU.

I haven't ordered replacement parts for ThinkPads very often. But when i specified a certain FRU, i had no problem getting exactly that FRU. In order to be able to get a specific FRU, i suppose one has to place the order with a Lenovo dealer. To locate a Lenovo dealer, this page can be of help:

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-44986

[dr_st]

I haven't ordered replacement parts for ThinkPads very often. But when i specified a certain FRU, i had no problem getting exactly that FRU.

Unfortunately it gets worse than that. For instance, try calling an official dealer (as I did a few days ago), and ask for 92P1069 (9-cell Pana battery for T43). They will tell you that the FRU has been discontinued and the replacement FRU is 42T4608. Of course they have no clue who actually manufacturers it (a web search will tell you that it is Sanyo).

[TTY]

According to IBM's German parts ordering web page, 92P1069 is available now. Lead time is the same as for the Sanyo 9-cell - within four weeks.

[dr_st]

Can you provide a link please? Regardless I am very skeptical that you will actually be getting a 92P1069.

[TTY]

Only registered dealers will be allowed to order parts on these web pages, but they are freely accessible as long as one doesn't order anything:

UK:
https://www-304.ibm.com/shop/europe/web ... Id=3063814

Germany:
http://www-304.ibm.com/shop/europe/weba ... Id=3063814

[miamicanes]

OK, judgment-call... given a choice between:

a) used Panasonic 6-cell (42T5264) described as "good", and

b) used Sanyo 9-cell (42T4530) also described as "good"

Statistically meaningless price difference between them ($22 vs $27), both seemingly-reputable sellers with good ratings. No hard benchmark data to go by, nothing known about their respective histories.

Any strong recommendations towards one or the other? Intellectually, I know I'll probably end up buying a new 9-cell eventually, but for the moment I'm trying to control the bleeding a bit after spending about twice as much as I really planned to spend when I set out on this adventure a couple of days ago

[dr_st]

Really it's impossible to choose one or the other logically without knowing actual current capacity, age, history. "Good" usually refers to "in the green zone", which can be anything between 50% and 100% of design capacity. Below 50% it is considered "yellow".

[miamicanes]

Well, I agonized over it for a couple of hours, read a few thousand more postings about bad 9-cell Lenovo batteries (almost universally involving Sanyo cells), and decided to just go with the 6-cell Panasonic battery. If nothing else, I'll probably end up buying a new 9-cell Panasonic battery before my next trip out to California anyway, so this will give me a second battery of a different size to use in situations where saving a pound of weight is nice and the battery's main function is mainly just to be a built-in UPS.

Does an ultrabay battery exist that uses Panasonic cells? Or are they ALL Sanyo-based?

[AIX]

just an update, as of today, same battery:

cycle count: 45
design capacity: 56.16 Wh
full charge capacity: 44.43 Wh

~20% loss after ~one year and 45 cycles.

I can tell you that my Sanyo battery doesn't age very well:

manufacture date: 2009-11-09
first use date: 2010-02
cycle count: 25
design capacity: 56.16 Wh
full charge capacity: 50.08 Wh

As you can see, it loosed ~10% of its capacity in only 6 months and 25 cycles (in fact, more than 10%, I remember it started from 57-58 Wh if I'm not wrong)! This rate of degradation seems too fast to me.

[RistoE]

I have a chinese T60 battery with panasonic cells. Design capacity is 48.8 Wh but after almost 1 year use the battery full capacity has been slowly raising above the nominal capacity. Currently its shows capacity of 53.1 Wh. It is the highest I've seen so far. The battery was cheap but it was promised to be with japanese cells. I'm pretty happy.