T42 vs T61 Which should I get

[fefrie]

Which should I get?

IBM ThinkPad T42 in great condition, very quiet

Type: 2374-CTO (Configure-To-Order)

* 14-inch TFT 1400x1050 High Resolution Display (not 1024x768)
* ATI Radeon 9600 64MB dedicated memory (not share)
* Fingerprint Reader
* Excellent Battery holding charge > 3 hours
* Great stereo sound with two speakers and a built-in microphone
* LED light when typing in the dark
Intel Centrino 1.7GHz
40GB Hard Disk
1GB memory
CDRW/DVD combo drive
Wireless 802.11b/g
Fax/Modem
Gigabit LAN
2X USB 2.0
2X PCMCIA slot
S-Video
Windows XP Professional with COA License
System has been restored to factory content (Restore Service Partition existed)
Just press 'Access IBM' button, it will do all recovery for you automatically
Original IBM power adapter
I can get it for $225

or

IBM Lenovo Thinkpad T61 Notebook

Model No. Thinkpad T61 7663 AQ3
Warranty Until: 2010-Nov-12

Price: $300 only (I bought it at > $1200)

Specs:
* CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo Merom T7300 2.0 GHz
* Hardisk: 120G SATA
* Graphics: Nvidia NVS 140M
* Memory: 1G DDR2 667 MHz (upgradable to 4GB)
* WIFI a/b/g Bluetooth
* Integrated Camera
* DVD Writer

Comes with:
* The notebook computer
* Original Thinkpad power adapter
* The receipt / invoice

Original Software:
* Windows Vista Home Premium English
* Original operating system recover CDs included

Current Software:
* Windows 7 Ultimate (English + French + Chinese + Japanese + Korean + etc.)
* Office 2010 Professional Plus (English + Chinese)
* Lots of other useful software
* Recovery file of the above
Listed for $300

Things I care about:

More information on screen (+T42)
form factor that allows for full keyboarding experience, a good wrist rest (+T42)
sufficent video card experence. (slight + T61)
One touch restore of factory image partition.
Processor speed is not that important to me. Especially if it means I can get more runtime from the batteries with less power.

I'm more partial towards XP since I know it, it's simple, does what I want.

Reliability is a huge requirement for me, so if there are any hardware deficiencies for either, I'd like to know. Nothing worse than buying a huge paperweight. I've done it twice with a toshiba and asus. It's a painful experience.

The hard drive size is not important to me either. I have a home computer that deals with my media.

The T61 has a bit of a newer g-wiz experience with a faster processor and upgraded graphics, but the real plus for me is the form factor which "may" be nicer in a 16:10 format, however if the screen ends up being lower, that may bug me. It may be easier and smaller to carry around, but if the physical size is wider and lower in height and I have to 'look down' more, then that will really bother me.

The real big thing for me with the t61 is the 128mb graphics. That gets me playing the only game i'm really interested in playing which is battlefield2.

If someone can tell me that the t42 with ati radeon 9600 (64mb) can play BF2 then that's a big swing in that direction.

Thanks all

[ajkula66]

Neither.

Both of these machines have very serious reliability issues, and both suffer from GPU failures.

T42 is very overpriced, BTW.

Check the forum's marketplace and I'm sure you'll be better off...

Good luck.

[pianowizard]

This is by far the easiest "which one should I get" post I have ever seen on this forum. Like George said, the clear answer is "Neither"! One was the least reliable IBM-made Thinkpad, and the other was the least reliable Lenovo-made Thinkpad. Both models have been dropping like flies all over the world, including my own T42.

Look for either a T60 or a T410.

[EOMtp]

From everything you mention, the T42 sounds just fine for your needs. Yes, these machines can fail if mishandled, but you can prevent that if you know what to avoid. In the case of the T42, simply do NOT pick it up with one hand from the right front corner -- always use two hands to pick it up when it is open. It's that simple! As for the price, how overpriced can a good computer be at $225? ... By $75? $100? Do you care? What is your time worth?

Still, the recommendation above for a T60 is a good one!

[fefrie]

Well I have a T42 with just 32mb. Seems to be running fine still.

Not sure if the GPU is a mechanical or temperature failure related or 64/128mb GPU related, however, my t42 32mb gpu is running fine still.

I definitley do do the 2 handed pickup with the laptop, so if it's a mechanical situation, then it should be no problem.

[ajkula66]

EOMtp wrote:

simply do NOT pick it up with one hand from the right front corner -- always use two hands to pick it up when it is open. It's that simple

Absolutely, positively NOT.

While persistant lifting/holding of a T4x machine with one hand makes the possibility of a GPU failure (detachment) higher, it's only one aspect of the problem.

People who have owned hundreds (myself) or repaired thousands of these units (Nick aka poshgeordie) will tell you that heating/cooling cycles adversely affect the solder joints of both GPU and SouthBridge chip on these machines, eventually causing detachment of the chip in question. No ifs, ends or buts on that one.

EOMtp wrote:

As for the price, how overpriced can a good computer be at $225?

Hmmm...let's see:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=91041 and that's a FlexView which always commands a higher price

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=90713 another FlexView, and a T60, no less

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=90414

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=90673

Am I starting to make sense now?

[craigmontHunter]

Just out of curiosity, does a T61 with intel graphics have any problems? I am considering getting an IBM refurb for ~$270 and want to make sure it does no have any problems.

Thank you

[fefrie]

Just out of curiosity, does a T61 with intel graphics have any problems? I am considering getting an IBM refurb for ~$270 and want to make sure it does no have any problems.

Thank you

I think that this thread sort of tells you no.

At this point I will consider myself lucky with the T42 32mb GPU. I'm careful with 2 handed lifting, and hopefully the 32mb GPU doesn't create too much heat.

I'll hold off untill I get what I really wanted anyways, a t50x series laptop with a SSD. I can wait, I'm still using my t23 anyways. The keyboard on the t23 I find a lot better than the t4x series anyways.

[ajkula66]

@craigmontHunter:

T61 with Intel graphics is an entirely safe machine to buy, it's ones with nVidia GPUs that are time bombs...

Happy hunting.

[pianowizard]

While persistant lifting/holding of a T4x machine with one hand makes the possibility of a GPU failure (detachment) higher, it's only one aspect of the problem.

People who have owned hundreds (myself) or repaired thousands of these units (Nick aka poshgeordie) will tell you that heating/cooling cycles adversely affect the solder joints of both GPU and SouthBridge chip on these machines, eventually causing detachment of the chip...

Yep, since the first day I got my T42, I have always handled it gently but the GPU still eventually became loose in July, after 3 years of ownership. After fixing this problem with a thick sheet of metal, this laptop has been working fine. This makeshift solution rarely works so well for other people. It works so well for me mainly because I don't move this T42 around any more -- it's now constantly sitting on my piano for displaying sheet music with Adobe Reader. And this is far from a graphics-intensive task, and so the GPU never heats up much.

Based on what I have read, my guess is that the fastest way to loosen the T4*'s GPU is indeed by frequently flexing the chassis, for example by picking up the laptop with one hand. By contrast, it takes longer for heating/cooling cycles to loosen the GPU, perhaps at least two years for most users. Because of this timing difference, the vast majority of early T4* failures were caused by flexing, and so initially people believed that as long as you avoid picking up the machine with one hand, you would be fine. (If you dig out old posts from around 2007, you will find lots of people giving such an advice.) But more recently, as these machines got older, GPU failures caused by heating/cooling started to become more common.

[MnR]

Hi,

Another cause is the Lead Free solder that they used on some of the boards. The parts list on the support site will tell you which boards have real solder and which have the imitation ( Lead Free solder) stuff...

They way some people I know treat their laptop it is a wonder they last period...

MnR

[FTC]

My suggestion for you is to pick the T61. It is a much better machine for processor, disk, graphics and some other features such as the DVDRW... you will not regret. Besides, it will be surely newer and runs colder.. those 1.7 banias processors were quite hot!.

[pianowizard]

... you will not regret...

...until the T61 exhibits the NVIDIA GPU failure. My friend's $2K T61 died twice within a year, the first time within the 1-year limited warranty but the second time just out of warranty.

[Norway Pad]

Kind of funny and sad that the two machines you picked both have known reliability issues. Lot of good advice above, but if I am allowed to add my own advices:

Price aside: the pro of the T42 is that the GPU issue can be fixed. There is now a service here on the forum dedicated to repair motherboards suffering from this issue. The T61 can not be fixed once it goes bad, and a different motherboard is the only fix. Unless that's an integrated one, it might go bad again the next week or next month. Anyway, these are machines from two different generations, and they offer different computing capabilities. PATA vs. SATA drives, more/faster RAM, single core vs. Core2 Duo. But you seem to know what you are dealing with in that respect.

My options, if I was still looking at Thinkpads from both T4x and T6x generations, would be to consider a T43 or a T60. T43 suffers from an occasional loose GPU or Southbridge, but is far more reliable than the T42. The T60 doesn't suffer from any issues at all. Seen in the light of that, and also for being able to cover any increased future needs, (SSD, more RAM, faster processor) my choice would be the T60.

There are pros and cons for all, but I have to say that a T61 is in my eyes the least desirable option of all the 4 above mentioned Thinkpads. Unless it's got integrated graphics.

[scr71822]

My latest work laptop is a t43 14.1 1871-4bu, basically a well optioned unit with Intel graphics. If I can get an SSD for it It should last for years and still have decent performace.

Original description: P M 750(1.86GHz),
512MB RAM, Now 1024mb
40GB 5400rpm HD, Now 80gb
14.1in 1024x768 LCD,
Intel 900,
CDRW/DVD, Now DVD-RW
Intel 802.11abg wireless,
Bluetooth/Modem,
1Gb Ethernet,
UltraNav,
Secure chip,
Fingerprint reader,
6c Li-Ion batt,
WinXP Pro

[tfflivemb2]

I find this to be an interesting thread, as almost every T42 that I have run across seems to have/had the GPU issue. The T61 that I used for two years never had a problem with the GPU. It did however have the fan problem, which I was going to replace, but ended up with my X200s instead...

I really loved the T61 and I miss it. I am considering picking up another one, now that the price has dropped, significantly.

[Neil]

The T61 that I used for two years never had a problem with the GPU.

Did yours have the Nvidia GPU? I hear that the T61 with Intel GPU is quite reliable, while the Nvidia is almost certain to fail.

[EAkamai]

Other than the battery going south, this system (w/Custom XP Pro) has been simply one of the most fascinating systems I've ever used in over 20 years of IT work. Only had minor issues when first configuring and tunning it. After that, it has been an extraordinary laptop. It runs extremely cool. So cool that many times I can hardly tell if it's really on. It runs the onboard Intel graphics and the entire system is really cool, quiet and fast. Of course I still use mostly socket 478/Northwood gear in my desktops so no wonder this laptop seems fast compared to those.

I use it to edit audio/video and actually author video DVDs with no problems whatsoever. Every now and again [very rare] it hesitates to go into or out of standby and instead of troubleshooting that I've made official policy to always shut down instead. Most of the time it works perfectly, but it's the very few times that keep me from giving it a perfect score. And I KNOW that is a software/driver issue. In every other respect, it is phenomenal. My only complaint was with something that is effecting ALL laptops now. The crippling of the sound card as well as NO STEREO LINE IN. An added purchase of the X-Fi Xtreme Audio Notebook cured all that. The really cool thing about that is, when the card is inserted, laptop 'knows' it and changes everything out to reflect added sound card. But simply pull it out and everything works with onboard as before without any user intervention or extra re-configuration. Amazing. It just 'knows' which one is installed. On top of that, even when added sound card is installed I am able to simply switch back and forth with no problems and no SoundMax or Creative software needing to start up automatically. I've actually not seen this very often where everything works this perfectly.

Although we haven't had much of a chance (yet) to take it on the road, we have put it through some heavy usage and it remains solid. Many times it's my 'go to' system as it cranks up ready to use so fast and shuts down just as fast. My customized XP helps with that. I've also dual booted Linux (Slackware) and it becomes even more incredible.

Although I've owned only one other laptop (an old 386 Toshiba - I can't count the one Katrina took away from us before we could even turn it on), I've spent YEARS installing, repairing, configuring hundreds of laptops for customers. (No thinkpads tho). It is the best I've ever seen. And I'm very happy to have gotten one of the last 4:3 (standard) screen 14.1 available 'cause I need to actually use this to work - not just view movies... and me eyes ain't what they used to be.

Hope I didn't overwhelm you... Good luck with your decision.

[exTPfan]

I own a T42 and T61 with similar specs to the T42 you are considering, and I use the T42 --- lighter, quieter, better keyboard and screen, better looking, and in actual use I don't notice any difference in speed (with XP). If the screen on the T42 is bright, I'd buy that.
Ignore the nay sayers --- if half of what they said was true, there would be no T42's still working.

[ajkula66]

exTPfan wrote:

Ignore the nay sayers --- if half of what they said was true, there would be no T42's still working.

One can always choose ignorance as an option, usually at their own peril. The reality check states the following:

a) If the T42 (and prior ATi-based T4x/R5x) units didn't have a very real problem with GPU detachment, IBM wouldn't have introduced the "new and improved" soldering process in the spring of 2005 that was applied to all of T43/p units, as well as to remainder of T42/p generation that were produced from that point until the model was discontinued. Also, all T4x/R5x planars refurbished by IBM after that time had been "improved" in the same manner.

b) If the reliability of T4x generation was not (and I'm being kind here) debatable at the very least, Nick (poshgeordie) would have closed his business by now (especially with the taxes HM collects from Her subjects) and not be expanding it to this side of the Atlantic...

c) I wouldn't have sold a couple of hundred well-tested T4x boards over the last couple of years...quite a few on this forum as well, and I'm far from being the only one...

d) There wouldn't be a "dime-a-dozen" selection of T4x/R5x units with "no video"/"intermittent video"/"freezes" available on feebay...

e) There wouldn't be stickies at the top of this forum related to all the aforementioned issues...

I rest my case.

With all of that said, I still consider the 14" T4x units to be the prettiest ThinkPads ever. I'm just advising that a very high amount of caution is called for when purchasing one unless its entire CV is known. It's really that simple.

T61 is a slightly different story. The reason for these machines failing had nothing to do with their design per se, but everything to do with the use of defective nVidia chips. Lenovo's response to this whole debacle - at least initially - left quite a bit to be desired IMHO. By the time they've decided to somewhat pick the ball off the ground, they must have lost a lot of customers who were upset by company's approach. A sin, since T400/500 and W500/700 machines are much nicer and better built units which would've satisfied the needs of a lot of people who swore never to buy a ThinkPad again after their experiences with T61/p generation.

My point being, I'm not saying "don't ever buy a T42 or a T61" but consider all the pros and cons, as well as the potential additional expense involved with such a purchase.

[EAkamai]

I'm just advising that a very high amount of caution is called for when purchasing one unless its entire CV is known.

Please excuse my ignorance here ajkula, but what is meant by "CV"?

Thanks - And thanks for a most informative post! This entire thread makes me feel fortunate to not have chosen the NVidia model.

[ajkula66]

CV = Curriculum Vitae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curriculum_vitae

[irus]

i own both and x200. i use 14" t42 sxga+ 99.9% of the time. its just a brilliant laptop. i also keep all my laptops under extended warranty just in case.

[lukee]

I would choose in this order:

1. T60
2. T43
.
.
.
99. T61

[tfflivemb2]

Did yours have the Nvidia GPU? I hear that the T61 with Intel GPU is quite reliable, while the Nvidia is almost certain to fail.

My T61 did indeed have the Nvidia chip (128MB nVIDIA Quadro NVS 140M).

I wish that I still had this machine, but alas, my project ended and so did my use of the T61. I have seriously been considering getting another one. Maybe I will look for the Intel based version, since I was apparently only lucky with the one that I had.

[rosch]

Hm, all I can tell is that I am very happy with my Thinkpad which is over 5 years old now.
Never had any serious issues, I only replaced the fan once and since I have been using it for about 11months a year I think this is more than ok.

By the way I am running both Ubuntu and Windows 7 on the machine just fine.
I have no experience with T61 so I cannot speak about it.
In fact I considered getting a T61 myself but I guess it would be a bad choice.
I got a T60 but unfortunately with a 14.1" TFT XGA/1024 x 768 screen..you can count the pixels so I'll get rid of it again.

[RealBlackStuff]

I got a T60 but unfortunately with a 14.1" TFT XGA/1024 x 768 screen..you can count the pixels so I'll get rid of it again.

You can update it to SXGA+ (1440x1050).

[cacophony]

a) If the T42 (and prior ATi-based T4x/R5x) units didn't have a very real problem with GPU detachment, IBM wouldn't have introduced the "new and improved" soldering process in the spring of 2005 that was applied to all of T43/p units, as well as to remainder of T42/p generation that were produced from that point until the model was discontinued.

Does this mean that T42s and T43s manufactured after mid 2005 won't have the loose GPU issues?

[Raceboy]

Does this mean that T42s and T43s manufactured after mid 2005 won't have the loose GPU issues?

This doesn't prevent it from happening, though the probability is decreased.

[fefrie]

This thread should be closed, since I already got a laptop, but the information has proved to be useful.

Since my first post, I had a 'basic'T42 which was just an XGA laptop with 32mb graphics. I paid $170 for it in spring 2010. The T42'b' lasted till late October when the hard drive had a terminal unreadable error somewhere 'in the middle' of the drive space.

That drove me to buy a really nice T42 in late october 2010 with a fingerprint reader (fr), sxga and 64mb video. I paid a bit much for it at $230, but when you need something NOW, you can't be cheap about it, especially when on craigslist. It was in excellent condition except for a loose power jack and a broken lid switch.

Since prices on T42's are dropping like a rock and it almost wasn't worth it to sell a T42 with a bad hard drive, I decided to see if I could get the T42b working again. I figured out that the T42b had a bad hard drive, but only at approximately the 20GB section of the hard drive, so I partitioned the drive to about 19gb just before the fault where the formatting process would hang. I installed the necessary Office files and Dropbox as an online/cloudstorage backup system. It runs perfectly on my office applications with only 750mb of ram and although only xga, the screen is still bright, and the colours still good.

The t42b now lives at work and if it ever gets stolen or dropped, I'll have all my data backed up properly. It runs perfectly for what I need, and as a bonus with all my 'upgrades' it runs with a battery that lasts three hours.

In the mean time, the T42fr lived in the backpack as a library laptop, and I used a T23 at home. I've used the T23 for years since I like the keyboard a lot better and the touchpoint seems better on it for some reason.

In the meantime I recently found another T42 with SXGA but without a fingerprint reader. The seller was selling it for $180, but I got it for $135, by asking him to downgrade the hard drive from 100gb to 40gb. I was planning to migrate to this T42 from the T42fr, but this T42's screen was a bit yellow, but the lid switch still worked.

So with some effort, I switched the cable on the two, and while I was at it, I took the nicer cable, better lid, less worn keyboard, better battery (60 min -> 90min), and bumped the ram on the T42fr from 1.5gb to 2gb and downgraded the ram on the donor T42 down to 1gb.

As a bonus, the T42fr was made in July 2005, so I'm hoping that it comes with the better GPU soldering technique.

Since the T42fr runs a little bit more friendly, I'm migrating away from the T23. The T23 still holds all my archival files, but the T42fr is now the daily runner. I've never had a new laptop, so the SXGA on this T42fr with it's bright screen and good colour reproduction is a treat. The form factor is nice and it runs relatively cool.

I'll probably be running this laptop for a couple of years for sure, especially since I've got a TON of T4x/T2X Power Blocks. If I could find a SSD cheap to fit into this that would be even better....