X201's Horrible Screen - Help me quantify!

[bacciagalupe]

Here's my deal -
I have a 3-year-old 15" Macbook Pro that I love. I walk around the house with it...lounge on the couch with it - life is good. But the times when I travel, it's a "bear" - makes my bag feel like it's packed with bricks - it really weighs me down. So I'm shopping for something small and light - and outside the horrible screen on the X201, it seems to be exactly what I'm looking for. I worked out a great deal: i5-560, 4GB RAM, 500GB HDD, 6300 wi fi, bluetooth, +touchpad - $847 (+tax). The price is right and the specs are fine - but the screen sucks. What's to do?

Without going into crazy details, I want to have an exclusive Windows machine, so having Win 7 is a bonus for me. And the most intensive tasks I will likely put on this machine is some photo editing with Photoshop. I'm not really a 'gamer'. But still, using Photoshop, maybe watching a video on a plane...or just doing a lot of reading/research-a.k.a. eye strain - how bad will it be on this crappy monitor? I hear a lot of horror stories, than I hear some saying "it's really not that bad". Keep in mind that I'm using a Macbook pro that's a vivid and sharp 1440x900. Will that make me feel like I just got out of a Corvette and jumped into a Corolla? Any thoughts and insight would be helpful. Thanks.

[ZaZ]

What's to do?

Lenovo uses multiple screen suppliers, some better than others. Which screen did you get? I didn't think the Samsung I got on my X200 was all that bad. It didn't have the best angles, but was serviceable for most uses.

If you don't mind the possibility of voiding your warranty or getting your hands dirty, there's the AFFS mod. On the X201 it requires that you replace the LED sub card and cable using CFFL screen parts from the X200, but it's otherwise a straight swap on the X201. It's a gorgeous AFFS screen with high contrast and wide viewing angles, better than the Macs.

Probably your other option is to calibrate the screen. It can help some, but it's still a TN panel with its limitations.

[bill bolton]

how bad will it be on this crappy monitor? I hear a lot of horror stories

Display quality is a war zone of religous-like devotion, akin to audiophile discussions... and it sounds like you have already chosen sides!

Personally I have no problem at all with the display on my X200. YMMV

Cheers,

Bill B.

[lead_org]

if you are really adamant about the need for better quality screen, do the AFFS mod.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo- ... creen.html

P.S. this will void any warranty that you have remaining on the system.

[billp117]

Until you put the two side by side (not a mac) you cannot make that kind of subjective evaluation. I personally like them both and it was a very difficult decission (yes I owned them both). Using the high resolution for more than an hour causes eye strain for me...only a T60p works good for my eyes. On the X200s...the higher resolution was fantastic but evenually caused me to use the lower resolution screen as my computer of choice.

Yes the Mac is amazing...but it is a larger screen. It is not a fair comparison to add the mac pro to the list...if that makes any sense.

Good luck...

[bacciagalupe]

Thanks for all the input. I did read about the AFFS mod, but I have no desire to take on that project. The only thing that really worries me is 'clarity of text'. I think I can adjust the settings enough to improve the color and contrast to tolerable levels, but the thought of reading a blurry screen is what scares me. I don't always opt for the highest resolution available on whatever system I happen to be using at the time, I actually prefer the 'larger view' associated with lower resolutions under the right circumstances. As long as it's a 'clear view'. Nonetheless, I've decided I'm just gonna live with it - however it may be.

I've searched, and searched, and searched, and SEARCHED...and I've learned that there is truly NOTHING that competes with the X201 in the areas of build-quality & toughness, portability and performance. Nothing. Especially at $850. The competitor's (HP 2540P and Vaio Z) cost double that!

I've come to realize that I just need to turn off my brain now...I'm WAY overthinking this, whatever drawback there is with the screen will be insignificant in relation to the complete package. I already placed the order.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

[ZaZ]

If you look at like it's a few hours of work for a machine that you'll use for three years, then it would seem worth the trade off. The screens are dirt cheap on ebay. Congrats on the machine.

[penartur]

if you are really adamant about the need for better quality screen, do the AFFS mod.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo- ... creen.html

P.S. this will void any warranty that you have remaining on the system.

Why do you think it will void the warranty? My experience and conversations with lenovo support are saing opposite.

[dr_st]

Since the screen is not considered a customer-replaceable unit, replacing it by yourself voids the warranty, at least technically. It will give them ground to refuse warranty service if you ever send the machine in.

It does not mean that they have to refuse, and of course, if you did not break anything while installing, and then require warranty service on something entirely unrelated (for example, keyboard) - they can very well exercise good judgment and honor the warranty.

And of course, when it comes to CRUs for which you do not even send the machine in, it is unlikely they will refuse warranty, since how would they even know that you changed the screen?

[penartur]

Since the screen is not considered a customer-replaceable unit, replacing it by yourself voids the warranty, at least technically. It will give them ground to refuse warranty service if you ever send the machine in.

I was told by their phone support that just replacing not customer-replaceable unit will not void the warranty. The only reason lenovo service could refuse to repair laptop under warranty is if they will prove that laptop died because of said replacement (that is, if you will replace the screen, and then the screen will die; or if you will replace the screen, and because you're completely unexperienced with such things, you will physically damage the mainboard). As long as the replacement was done professionaly (not necessarily in authorized lenovo service) and the problem is not related to replaced unit, they cannot refuse the warranty service.
Also i doubt that in case of e.g. motherboard dead, some service man will do an extra job (namely, disassemble the upper lid just to check whether customer replaced the screen or not) instead of just replacing the motherboard.

And of course, when it comes to CRUs for which you do not even send the machine in, it is unlikely they will refuse warranty, since how would they even know that you changed the screen?

Also, one can swap their screen back before sending the dead laptop to Lenovo.

[bill bolton]

and the problem is not related to replaced unit, they cannot refuse the warranty service.

Believe what you will, but the reality remains that if you undertake a major replacement with a non-Lenovo supplied part which changes the machine specification, getting warranty service is going to be quite difficult.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[bacciagalupe]

Since we're on the subject of 'warranty', I'm curious to know what's the most popular option? I just took the basic 1 yr warranty, planning on upgrading before it expires, so I didn't look into the specifics just yet. I did the same with my Macbook and it worked out fine. The only problem is that I have an Apple store near me, so it's really no issue to take it in their, have it fixed, and take it back home the same day. What's the gig with the Lenovo? Do I have to ship it somewhere to get it fixed if it breaks down? What's the turnaround on that? Does the majority go with the onsite warranty because the basic is a hassle?

[ZaZ]

Believe what you will, but the reality remains that if you undertake a major replacement with a non-Lenovo supplied part which changes the machine specification, getting warranty service is going to be quite difficult.

I'd say if you do a good job with the replacement, unless it's the screen that goes, there's a pretty good chance that Lenovo will fix it. You correctly point out if Lenovo wants to deny you coverage because of the modification, they can and there's nothing to be done about it. It's not a risk free proposition. Some like myself are willing to take the leap while others are not.

If you can't afford to be without your machine then perhaps on-site or even accidental would be worth a look. The accidental can get a little pricey depending on the length and it also must be purchased within the first 30 days. It's also usually cheaper to add the warranty extensions when you get the machines than post purchase.

If you have depot repair Lenovo will send you a box to for the trip back. Usually the turn around is pretty quick, but if a part you need is out of stock, you'll wait. I myself got my X200t on eBay and it already had accidental coverage. I live in a rural area where I don't think Lenovo offers on-site. I'll have to send it in, but hopefully I'll never have to use it.

[penartur]

If you can't afford to be without your machine then perhaps on-site or even accidental would be worth a look. The accidental can get a little pricey depending on the length and it also must be purchased within the first 30 days. It's also usually cheaper to add the warranty extensions when you get the machines than post purchase.

If you have depot repair Lenovo will send you a box to for the trip back. Usually the turn around is pretty quick, but if a part you need is out of stock, you'll wait. I myself got my X200t on eBay and it already had accidental coverage. I live in a rural area where I don't think Lenovo offers on-site. I'll have to send it in, but hopefully I'll never have to use it.

Do i understand it right that there is no difference between that on-site/depot/etc outside of USA?

[penartur]

Believe what you will, but the reality remains that if you undertake a major replacement with a non-Lenovo supplied part which changes the machine specification, getting warranty service is going to be quite difficult.

Cheers,

Bill B.

What i said previously was the claim of one person on the top (or close to the top) of thinkpad support in russia. Unfortunately, it was an oral claim, so i don't have a written evidence right now.
Also, Lenovo USA fixed my motherboard (died because of factory flaw) without any questions, although the laptop has its LCD replaced with boe-hydis one.

[ZaZ]

Do i understand it right that there is no difference between that on-site/depot/etc outside of USA?

I don't know. I've never had a Thinkpad serviced outside of the USA.

[jvarszegi]

I don't have a problem with the X201 screen. One of the first things I do is turn of ClearType anti-aliasing, which does a lot to improve readability at smaller text sizes, but that might not work for you if you always set your font size quite large.

In any event, I don't think that the viewing angles are a big deal. FWIW I also use Photoshop on the X201, and it works fine. I haven't even taken the time to calibrate the screen, which I guess makes me a non-purist.

[penartur]

In any event, I don't think that the viewing angles are a big deal.

Well, maybe you are lucky, but all thinkpad TN screens i saw up to date (that was three WXGA X200/s, three WSXGA+ R61i, two T400 (one WXGA and other WXGA+ LED-backlit) and one T500 (WXGA)) had so poor viewing angles, that not only rotating the screen changed viewing experience, but even when one is looking straight on the screen, the bottom part of it looks completely different from the upper part. You can try to calibrate it as much as you want, but it won't improve the problem when e.g. looking straight on the screen filled with black-on-white text, the letters will be indistinguishable from the background on the top and bottom of the screen.

[dr_st]

You can try to calibrate it as much as you want, but it won't improve the problem when e.g. looking straight on the screen filled with black-on-white text, the letters will be indistinguishable from the background on the top and bottom of the screen.

Yes, but even with how bad the laptop TNs are, they are not anywhere close to this situation.

[jvarszegi]

... all thinkpad TN screens i saw up to date... had so poor viewing angles, that not only rotating the screen changed viewing experience, but even when one is looking straight on the screen, the bottom part of it looks completely different from the upper part.

Mine isn't like that; in fact there is no visible difference between the bottom and top of the screen, looking at it head-on. I don't think I'm particularly lucky, because I've seen other X201 samples and they seemed fine to me too.

You can try to calibrate it as much as you want, but it won't improve the problem when e.g. looking straight on the screen filled with black-on-white text, the letters will be indistinguishable from the background on the top and bottom of the screen.

No, I think that's a ridiculous thing to say. Nobody could sell laptops with screens like that.

[penartur]

Mine isn't like that; in fact there is no visible difference between the bottom and top of the screen, looking at it head-on. I don't think I'm particularly lucky, because I've seen other X201 samples and they seemed fine to me too.

Then either you're extremely lucky or they are using just cheap screens in X201 instead of darn cheap as in X200/s, T400/T500 and R61.
Or maybe you're looking on it at such a distance that looking angles for top and bottom parts of screen do not differ significantly? I'd say i used my X200 on about 1.5 or maybe 2 feets from my eyes.

No, I think that's a ridiculous thing to say. Nobody could sell laptops with screens like that.

Yes, nobody. Except for lenovo.
Hell, i have a Hitachi VisionDesk all-in-one PC from 1998 (used it as a wifi router some time ago), it comes with a worse 13" XGA TN panel (and i believe TN screens slightly improve over time as technology advances), and even it is much better than stock X200 screen i had.

[penartur]

Yes, but even with how bad the laptop TNs are, they are not anywhere close to this situation.

Well, maybe you are also lucky with your T410, or they really improved something in the last generation?
All stock thinkpad screens i've seen up to date (i mentioned the exact models above) were exactly in this situation.

[dr_st]

No, I am sorry - you are wrong.

I have never seen a TN screen on any desktop / laptop, where black letters blended with white background, on any part of the screen, when the screen is viewed straight on.

What happens when you tilt the screen and view it from above/below is a different story.

[penartur]

No, I am sorry - you are wrong.

I have never seen a TN screen on any desktop / laptop, where black letters blended with white background, on any part of the screen, when the screen is viewed straight on.

What happens when you tilt the screen and view it from above/below is a different story.

It seems that there is some misunderstanding.
Sure, when you're looking on the screen under the straight right angle, everything is okay. However, look at this picture:

The screen is viewed by the eye upon a straight angle only in "B" point. As you see, even when eye is looking straight on the screen (no tilting, no viewing above or below the screen), there is some not-so-straight angle in points "A" and "C" (that angle depends on the screen diagonal and on the viewing distance; for 12" screen with 8" height and for 20" distance, that would be arcsin(4/20)=78.46 degrees, which is 11.5 degrees off the right angle. On TN panels i saw in thinkpad, such a relatively small offset is enough for colors to start inverting.
The only possibility for eye to look on all points of the flat screen under the equal angle is to move infinitely far away from the screen or to look on it from the edge. Majority of TN screens are dealing well with such deviations (with real vertical viewing angles at least from -30 to +30 degrees), so there is no such problem; but that is not the screens lenovo uses.
PS: By the way, screen in my X200 was made by Au Optronics or Chi Mei Optronics, i don't remember it exactly. Back to these days, i've found a datasheet on that panel, and in that datasheet manufacturer advertised 40 degrees viewing angle (which means that there should be no distortion of image in some interval, e.g. from -20 to +20 degrees, or from -30 to +10 etc; manufacturer doesn't state this exactly), when for other TN screens advertised vertical viewing angles sometimes are going as far as 140 or 150 degrees.

[dr_st]

There is no misunderstanding. I know my school geometry.

I never said there would be no color deviations top to bottom. I know first hand that they exist on the crappy laptop TN screens.

However between

such a relatively small offset is enough for colors to start inverting

and

the letters will be indistinguishable from the background on the top and bottom of the screen

there is a very very very big difference, and the latter claim is simply false.

[penartur]

Okay, nearly indistinguishable. I've actually experienced this.
I've said (and you quoted) that colors start inverting. If colors would invert completely, the text still would be readable (although not black-on-white but rather white-on-darkgray or something like that); but they just started inverting, so that it is something like gray-on-lightgray.

Also, it seems i've expressed myself wrong and paid little attention to the discussion thread.
In the beginning, i was saying that colors significantly differ from top to bottom, and then tried to illustrate the problem by an (somewhat imaginary, but clear) example of letters becoming indistinguishable from the background. Then i've noticed jvarszegi's post which said that there is no visible difference between top and bottom, and then i started to explain all that stuff, and only after that i've noticed your comment and didn't read it carefully.

[Squiddy]

the Screen on my X200 seems to be especially bad.
Like penartur, when looking straight on at my screen from a distance of less than three feet there is significant change in contrast, brightness and colour at the top and bottom of the screen, and it's getting so annoying that i'm extremely tempted to press the Buy-It-Now button on an HV121WX4-110 for about ~£70 (item number 390218733156)

<edit>
it doesn't help matters that all my other computer monitors have been MVA/PVA for about three years.

[Maryland, USA]

In addition to using ClearType, be sure to run the ClearType Tuner at http://www.microsoft.com/typography/cle ... step1.aspx . Finally, be sure to tell your browser to use a highly readable typeface, like Verdana or Tahoma, fonts that were designed to be read easily on an LCD.

Last month, I bought my wife a loaded X201 and dock, against her wishes: She claimed she'd never use it as a portable, so I overspent and could have bought her a desktop. So far, she has been true to her word: She has used it undocked exactly once, and only because I brought it to her so she could text with our daughter while watching TV. Anyway, maybe it's for the best, since the X201's display is, truth be told, lackluster...and when it's docked my wife gets to enjoy a 23-inch 1920x1200 Philips S-IPS display.

[penartur]

Finally, be sure to tell your browser to use a highly readable typeface, like Verdana or Tahoma, fonts that were designed to be read easily on an LCD.

Default fonts in Vista and 7 are Segoe, Calibri and Cambria families, and these were designed to be read easily on LCD.