Help with deciding on a laptop

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furqan · #1 Post by **furqan** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:50 pm

Well ive decided to wait until the G5 powerbooks (whenever that may be) to spend around $2,500 on a laptop. In the meantime, ive decided to get a cheaper, perhaps refurbished computer. As my Dad works at IBM, i can get a certified used T41 which normally retails new for around $1,900 and used for $1,759.00 at the employee discount price of $1,500. This only has 256 mb of RAM however, as well as 802.11b, no bluetooth, and more importantly lack of firewire. A firewire card can be bought for around $40-$50 more though. Ok I can also get a new Powerbook 12" at the educational discount price of $1,399.00. This comes with 802.11g, bluetooth, and firewire. It also happens to be new. My main concern with this however is that it only has a 12" screen compared to the 14.1" of the IBM. Within a year (or whenever the g5 powerbook comes out) how much value would my powerbook retain versus the T41? My Dad tells me that it will probably be tougher to sell the powerbook just because less people use Apple but hes not fully sure and neither am I. He told me that I would have an easier time selling the IBM and that since the normal price is higher than the discount price that i wouldnt really lose much money at all. Of course the final decision is up to me, but its hard to find used laptops for sale on ebay and im not sure how id sell a laptop after a year and how much value it would retain. Any thoughts/suggestions?

furqan · #2 Post by **furqan** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:00 am

of course i could also get the 15" t42 but im really not sure since even though i havent tried OSX outside of using a computer at a store the g5 when it comes out will be pretty powerful for a laptop and im not losing any programs by going with a mac. so its pretty tough to decide

Reshesnik · #3 Post by **Reshesnik** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:36 am

I sold my old PB lombardo for $1000 after it was four years old. Not sure if IBM's will keep their value.

OS X is amazing, but keep in mind that the 12" PB's have had a share of design issues that the 15" PB's and Thinkpads will not have. The 12 for some reason uses a cheaper MOBO that is prone to failure.

If reliability is a concern, go IBM. If OS X and portability are your bag then take the 12" PB. Both good machines IMHO.

Chun-Yu · #4 Post by **Chun-Yu** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:48 am

Let me get this straight...your dad works at IBM and you want to wait for a PowerBook that may come out who knows when?!?!

Daniel · #5 Post by **Daniel** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:04 am

Also, what is the point of getting the Apple? Unless you're doing something that requires Apple specific software, you don't need the G5. Most likely they won't be running a dual setup on a notebook and the G5 processor isn't really as fast as they make it out to be. I hope you didn't fall into Apple's marketing. It's my opinion that Apples retain their value far better because they evolve slower than PC based notebooks/computers. It shouldn't be too difficult to sell an Apple or IBM so long as it's in working condition. Just plop it on EBay and it'll be gone in a week or less, depending on you. You also mentioned that you're not familiar with OS-X so I'd just stay with the IBM-PC platform. I say, pick up a 2.0ghz Dothan powered T42 and have more power (on some applications) than a dual G5 desktop Macintosh.

Some food for thought:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,a ... g,8,00.asp

cynic · #6 Post by **cynic** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:23 am

Get the PB.

I've noted that people enamoured with PBs will always be enamoured with PBs even though the performance edge has never been with them and the margin in performance has grown to a substanial margin from the x86 platform. Buying computers (laptops or otherwise) based on the idea of resell is ridiculous. You shouldn't go into such a purchase expecting to retain any value. If, when the time comes, you are able to make some money back that's great... but don't plan ahead to do so, that's nuts.

A single 2.0G5 wouldn't come close to the performance of my 1.6 Pentium M (the duals are less than 1/4 higher in performance with 4 times as much RAM in real life comparisons--we have multiple dual 2.0G5 Macs at work.) If you think when they get a G5 into the PBs that A) it will be at 2.0GHz or B) it will be a dual unit, you're kidding yourself. This and we haven't even begun to discuss battery life or heat issues (which are tragically bad on all current PBs; really, you never seen a bigger market segment being catered to by items like "laptop coolers.")

I think that closes the book on the G5 until IBM can whip something amazing out of R&D without Apple mucking it up.

furqan · #7 Post by **furqan** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:50 am

performance is NOT the biggest factor here. i really want a powerbook, and instead of spending over $2,500 on a 17" powerbook id rather wait until the next line of powerbooks come out and not just a small speed bump. the reason for this is that it may have other features, or another design or something else all together. i just dont want to spend a whole lot on a laptop right now when within a year and most likely sooner itll be completely different. a g5 powerbook would most likely be more than just a new processor in the laptop, itll probably have other new stuff in it. Most of my uses on the computer anyways are just browsing the internet, burning cds, listening to music, putting stuff on an ipod, using instant message programs, writing essays and other school stuff. All of that stuff can be done on the powerbook, and many times it can be done better with OSX from what ive read.

#8 Post by **JaneL** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:10 am

Get the Powerbook. Please.

bli1348 · #9 Post by **bli1348** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:12 am

no offence.. if that's all you need to do with a PB, why do you want to wait for newer models with more features.. I can sell you my old laptop that does everything you want at $250 instead of $2500.

Skywing · #10 Post by **Skywing** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:18 am

furqan wrote:performance is NOT the biggest factor here. i really want a powerbook, and instead of spending over $2,500 on a 17" powerbook id rather wait until the next line of powerbooks come out and not just a small speed bump. the reason for this is that it may have other features, or another design or something else all together. i just dont want to spend a whole lot on a laptop right now when within a year and most likely sooner itll be completely different. a g5 powerbook would most likely be more than just a new processor in the laptop, itll probably have other new stuff in it. Most of my uses on the computer anyways are just browsing the internet, burning cds, listening to music, putting stuff on an ipod, using instant message programs, writing essays and other school stuff. All of that stuff can be done on the powerbook, and many times it can be done better with OSX from what ive read.

dont go by "what you read" chances are it was written by mac zealots that fell into apples marketing. my dad is one of those dumb mac users who thinks that theyre somehow superior. yet every time he comes to me saying "oh apple just released an update that lets me do this" or "some company just released some software that lets me do that", its always something thats been capabable of being done in windows since 1999. And what technologies are you talking about? all they really can do is put in a G5. Their laptops already have FW800, DVD burners and just about everything else. Maybe theyll put in an IPS screen, thats the only thing i can think of. and i hope you never have any problems with that powerbook, apple offers no way of diagnosing any hardware problems or conflicts, best thing you can do is buy Tech Tools Pro and hope that does the trick. Otherwise be prepared to shell out more money to be forced to have apple fix it.

snappy · #11 Post by **snappy** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:18 am

If you just need a stand in to use for

browsing the internet, burning cds, listening to music, putting stuff on an ipod, using instant message programs, writing essays and other school stuff

then you might as well get a IBM-Refurb T23 at $500-$700. It will *definitely* serve your needs. Though I would recommend bumping up the ram to 512MB or more.

Sometimes we must realise that all the companies will want (and hope) that you buy their latest greatest product. But think about it, do we really *need* that cutting edge G5 or Dothan? Back in 2000, I was working on server apps in my clients' place, using a trusty Compaq E500 (PIII500 with 384MB ram). I was running Win2k Advanced Server, with Active Directory, Exchange2k and stuffs. My work then required compilation of server apps which IMHO, certainly is more intensive than browsing the net, burning cds etc. Yet the machine was running fine.

Or, you could also just get a PowerBook.

dclee012 · #12 Post by **dclee012** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:45 am

sometimes i think mac users are like a cult.
it's not the real gospel and they wanna suck other people into it, and they always got something to prove. they're just expensive toys.

lilserenity · #13 Post by **lilserenity** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:13 pm

Oh Mac users are nothing like Amigans. (Yeah, the Amiga

good in 1989 but that was 15 years ago)

That said I do more than what you specify you want to use a laptop for and to ratify I have a ThinkPad T23, 1.13GHz and 512MB and I do far far more than what you mention as your usages on it. It truly is a wonderful piece of kit and this T41 will have to be [censored] good for me to sell this T23 on.

Failing that, I have even seen bottom end T40s (16mb vide gfx chip, Pentium-m 1.3Ghz etc.) in the Uk for a mere £500 (and thats in the UK where things are a bit pricier).

And before you denounce a 16mb video memory - my T23 is amazing for what it does with the S3 SuperSavage in it, sure it doesn't play the latest games but for applications and productivity, it rocks!

(...that or I don't know better).

Vicky

furqan · #14 Post by **furqan** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:47 pm

dclee012 wrote:sometimes i think mac users are like a cult.
it's not the real gospel and they wanna suck other people into it, and they always got something to prove. they're just expensive toys.

i have yet to see a bad review of the powerbook laptops. they are filled with many features, and even though many windows laptops have the same features, at the time powerbooks were among a very small list of laptops to have only an inch thickness, weigh the amount they weigh, have built in wireless g networking, bluetooth, firewire, dvd burner. id say they are more than expensive toys. this holds even more true with the 17" version, as i have yet to see a 17" windows laptop from any of the major pc makers which is an inch thick and weighs 6.9 pounds.

Chun-Yu · #15 Post by **Chun-Yu** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:00 pm

But who cares about that when a T42 is faster, lighter, higher resolution, and has triple the mouse buttons and a pointing stick AND touchpad (not to mention a much better keyboard)? But seriously, if you have never used OS X before, it isn't easy to learn. It took me literally 10 minutes to learn how to remove something from the dock. If you're used to the Windows (and basically all other OSes) ways, OS X is a real pain to learn, imho. I always joke that I can use all the popular OSes (Windows, Linux, Solaris, etc.) decently well except OS X. The interface designed around a single button is incredibly unintuitive if you are used to 2 buttons (like dragging something off the dock to remove it - who would have thought of that, lol).

Txiasaeia · #16 Post by **Txiasaeia** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:03 pm

furqan wrote:i have yet to see a bad review of the powerbook laptops. they are filled with many features, and even though many windows laptops have the same features, at the time powerbooks were among a very small list of laptops to have only an inch thickness, weigh the amount they weigh, have built in wireless g networking, bluetooth, firewire, dvd burner. id say they are more than expensive toys. this holds even more true with the 17" version, as i have yet to see a 17" windows laptop from any of the major pc makers which is an inch thick and weighs 6.9 pounds.

The problem with a powerbook is that it only has what, two hours of battery life (if that)? I personally would never buy a notebook with that kind of battery life, especially if you're paying the huge price premium that comes with a 17" powerbook.

furqan · #17 Post by **furqan** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:26 pm

Txiasaeia wrote:
furqan wrote:i have yet to see a bad review of the powerbook laptops. they are filled with many features, and even though many windows laptops have the same features, at the time powerbooks were among a very small list of laptops to have only an inch thickness, weigh the amount they weigh, have built in wireless g networking, bluetooth, firewire, dvd burner. id say they are more than expensive toys. this holds even more true with the 17" version, as i have yet to see a 17" windows laptop from any of the major pc makers which is an inch thick and weighs 6.9 pounds.
The problem with a powerbook is that it only has what, two hours of battery life (if that)? I personally would never buy a notebook with that kind of battery life, especially if you're paying the huge price premium that comes with a 17" powerbook.

the 17" is rated at 4.5 hours. and im looking at the 12" at this point for reasons previously stated which has a longer battery life than the 17".

Conmee · #18 Post by **Conmee** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:49 pm

Furqan,

Obviously, you are a Mac person. So why waste your time buying a refurbished or even new ThinkPad that you're only going to use to bide your time until a G5 Powerbook comes out in 2005... or later. Might as well get yourself a used G4 Powerbook on Ebay or even a new one so that you can do all those daily tasks you mentioned on the platform/computer of your choice/preference. The speed/performance increase, IMHO, isn't worth the wait if you have to throw down almost $2K just to have a stop-gap system that isn't even what you want. So stop wasting your time and waffling, and just get an Apple already!

Besides, the resale value is good enough that you'll probably get 50% of your purchase price on a 15" or 17" PB when the hoped-for G5 PBs are available... and you'll get a leg up on OS X in the meantime.

Daniel.

dclee012 · #19 Post by **dclee012** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:17 pm

not to mention how you can trust everything apple says about their quality products, like "world's fastest personal computer"

ya... right. brought to you by the makers of pastel color computers and hocky-puck shaped, one button mice.

cynic · #20 Post by **cynic** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:29 pm

furqan wrote: the 17" is rated at 4.5 hours. and im looking at the 12" at this point for reasons previously stated which has a longer battery life than the 17".

FYI, those numbers are not true. Apple has never claimed 4.5 hrs on the 17"PB. Apple has claimed only 5 hrs on the 12"PB and never stated for the other ones. In real life, you get at maximum 2-3 hrs on the 17" (usually under 2), 3-3.5 hrs on the 15", and 3-4hrs on the 12" on a brand new battery (we have multiple models of all of the above at work from all the recent revisions) You will never get 4.5 hrs on the 17". Five months later, drop half an hour off of the above numbers. The only Apple laptop with good power usage numbers was the last generation 12" ibook which could actually do 5 hrs.

When people are claiming 7+hrs on the T4x 14.1", these are real life numbers. My 1 year, 3 month old battery now does 6 hrs easily (which means it has always lasted twice as long as any PB)

As for bad reviews on the PBs, you must have missed the 15" review by MacWorld or the heat problems with the 12". I also hope you've actually used the 17" PB because it is a nightmare in ergonomics (the 12" is the only one with proper ergonomics-- but then it has the worst heat issues) Also, the T4x 14.1" series is thinner than both the 15"Al and 12"Al by quite a lot. The T4x 14.1" is about the same thickness as the 15"Ti and the 17"Al. Of course, the T4x is lighter than all of them except the 12" (which is lighter by barely .3lbs) It also doesn't dent or scratch like the Al PBs.

That being said... Get the PowerBook-- sometimes people just need to get it out of their system; it's the "grass is always greener" syndrome. Before you go blowing money on a G5 PB in 1-2 years, get a refurbished model from Apple's website or buy an older model. Use OS X and see if it's right for you. If you planned on buying a ThinkPad and selling it later, you can do the same with a Powerbook. Why wait to do the conversion at this point.. just don't buy a top-of-the-line PB now

Heck you could go a buy a used 12"iBook from a few years back...

(Ok, really don't do that; bit of an inside joke for long-term Apple users-- that's the series of iBooks that have successive logic board failures; I've had a friend who has went through 4 so far and he's only had his laptop a few months in the course of a few years due to all the time it has spent in Apple's Repair Center)

#21 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:32 pm

Furqan,

Get a PowerBook G4. Unless you need the raw speed of a 2.0 GHz Dothan Pentium M you probably won't notice the difference. As far as I can tell, there's no PowerBook G5 on the horizon, and there probably won't be a PowerBook G5 until well into 2005. The G5 simply runs too hot on a 90nm fab process to put into a 1" form factor notebook.

I would recommend against the 17" PowerBook. I've seen them in use and they are very unwieldy due to their large footprint. IMO the 15" hits the sweet spot for Widescreen notebooks in terms of weight and footprint.

Chun-Yu · #22 Post by **Chun-Yu** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:51 pm

K. Eng wrote:As far as I can tell, there's no PowerBook G5 on the horizon, and there probably won't be a PowerBook G5 until well into 2005. The G5 simply runs too hot on a 90nm fab process to put into a 1" form factor notebook.

Yup...that's probably why the 2.5 GHz G5 now has liquid cooling.

furqan · #23 Post by **furqan** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:37 pm

thanks a lot for the help guys i appreciate it

snappy · #24 Post by **snappy** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:47 pm

lilserenity wrote: That said I do more than what you specify you want to use a laptop for and to ratify I have a ThinkPad T23, 1.13GHz and 512MB and I do far far more than what you mention as your usages on it. It truly is a wonderful piece of kit and this T41 will have to be [censored] good for me to sell this T23 on.
--snip--
And before you denounce a 16mb video memory - my T23 is amazing for what it does with the S3 SuperSavage in it, sure it doesn't play the latest games but for applications and productivity, it rocks!

I cannot agree more on that. Actually, I kinda half regretted getting a X30 after seriously running through the specs on T23s (or for that matter, T2x), but since I already have it and its warranted until Sep2006, I'm not complaining.

... ... that is unless someone wants to swap or something?

*hint*

As for graphics, frankly, unless you want to play the latest greatest 3D stuffs, then go for one with ATI Radeon or some.

For the records, my *OLD* OEM nVidia GeForce 256 DDR 32MB from my 1996 actually still runs some of the latest games that requires hardware T&L!! I think nVidia really over-engineered on that one.

Chun-Yu · #25 Post by **Chun-Yu** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:15 am

They had the GeForce back in 1996?

lilserenity · #26 Post by **lilserenity** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:15 am

snappy wrote:
lilserenity wrote: ...It truly is a wonderful piece of kit and this T41 will have to be [censored] good for me to sell this T23 on.
--snip--
And before you denounce a 16mb video memory - my T23 is amazing for what it does with the S3 SuperSavage in it, sure it doesn't play the latest games but for applications and productivity, it rocks!
I cannot agree more on that. Actually, I kinda half regretted getting a X30 after seriously running through the specs on T23s (or for that matter, T2x), but since I already have it and its warranted until Sep2006, I'm not complaining. ... ... that is unless someone wants to swap or something? *hint*

Hehe. Well I have been through my fair share of ThinkPads, and sometimes I wonder wy I have even bought this T41, after all I am most happy with the T23. I am strange

(I have to admit I got hooked by the T4x's sleek profile)

However the T23 is my favourite ThinkPad model thus far in my experience, sleeker than the T30, and enough upgrades to make it worthwhile over old T2x's (133MHz bus vs. 100MHz, Tualatin Pentium IIIs, 1GB Max RAM Vs. 512MB and 16MB Video Memory vs. 8MB). While indeed it is no graphics workstation, I can sure say that when folks pop by and see a sleek black laptop and my 17" monitor also hooked to it, they are rather impressed a laptop can handle all this very well. (Guess they are used to junk machines).

If I am suitably impressed by the T41 then I shall let the T23 go to a new home, if not, I'll return the T41.

snappy wrote:As for graphics, frankly, unless you want to play the latest greatest 3D stuffs, then go for one with ATI Radeon or some.

Indeed my games playing is minimal indeed, however for the productivity work, I cannot fault the T23 within my usage patterns, it's handled everything I have thrown at it, and thrown it back rather hard too, it knows how to play ball

That and SXGA+ and fully specced T23s are somewhat affordable these days.

Still my T23 is most nice to use with its built in XGA TFT and a 17" CRT attached with 1280x1024. Makes using my ThinkPad a pure joy.

Vicky

snappy · #27 Post by **snappy** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:30 pm

Chun-Yu wrote: They had the GeForce back in 1996?

hmm ... let me open up the casing and see if there is any warranty sticker on the card ... oops ... *bummer* ... its '99, when I was working in Creative R&D.

Now I recall, 96 was when I plunged into Voodoo ... which is now extant.

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