T61 nVidia thinkpads being repaired N/C [until March 2011]

[magura]

eecon, you seem to be typing faster than reading - I just wrote that I DID experience the fault myself (here, in case you can't scroll up). I'm currently trying to fight my way through CS Lenovo team in Poland who seem to treat any claims as a breach of their blissful state of peace of mind... I'm seriously considering retraining to become a CS rep with Lenovo

[eecon]

eecon, you seem to be typing faster than reading - I just wrote that I DID experience the fault myself (here, in case you can't scroll up). I'm currently trying to fight my way through CS Lenovo team in Poland who seem to treat any claims as a breach of their blissful state of peace of mind... I'm seriously considering retraining to become a CS rep with Lenovo

That's the spirit .... keep hounding them (plus send Mark Lenovo another Private Message ASAP).

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T61-and-pri ... 897#M55302

Emphasize to him (and here publically on the Forum, for that matter) that you are just barely within that magicial 6 month window of past warranty expiration and will not tolerate Lenovo Poland CS stalling a few days longer in order to push you just enough outside that 6 month window and then claim you are ineligible!

In that case, you would and should retain a lawyer and beat them over the head with a subpoena to release to the public document MIGR-75087 (which they are keeping private, in my opinion, because it possibly could reveal that Lenovo knew about the defect and did nothing but stall and hope owners of failed units beyond warranty expiration would simply go away and buy new units).

This issue will only balloon larger and larger, especially here in the USA as more and more units start failing and there are many eager and hungry lawyers looking for class action lawsuits to file ..... especially against Chinese owned companies with deep pockets.

BTW, I just heard a guy in Sweden and also one in the UK got their units fixed well past warranty (like 2 years past expiration).

[eecon]

Possibly new bad news folks regarding the defective Nivida GPU Lenovo fix .... stay tuned .... hot off the Lenovo Support Forum:

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T61-and-pri ... 991#M55308

[eecon]

In my opinion, I've unfortunately concluded this evening that Lenovo may be intentionally making customers jump through a lot of extra hoops to get things fixed right regarding this defect issue of a discontinued 3 to 4 year old model ...... hoping all along that you'll simply give up and move on to a new laptop (preferably another Lenovo).

I certainly will move on, as will many of my engineering colleagues in in the petroleum industry along with their oil companies as upgrade season approaches this summer, but sadly not to another Lenovo product.

Nothing personal against Mark Lenovo over at the Lenovo Support Forum .... he has tried his best, but the Chinese owners of Lenovo, in my opinion, take great personal pride in being tough as nails when it comes to negotiating anything (to their credit as businessmen, traders and merchants) .... but to their ultimate detriment regarding PR and future customer loyalty.

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T61-and-pri ... 085#M55320 (post #582)

Thus, I shall post no more regarding this specific issue .... I have moved on to study other other manufacturers' and their offerings for this coming summer, as has my company's IT department.

A sincere wish of all the best to T61/T61p (pre-August 2008 Build) owners more than 6 months past warranty expiration.

[Yacek]

Pfffffffffffffffffffff.. mine is 07/08.... will see so far no probs with heavy load... (lot 3D gaming)

[eecon]

Pfffffffffffffffffffff.. mine is 07/08.... will see so far no probs with heavy load... (lot 3D gaming)

Just regularly air blast the fan inlet daily and lift the KB weekly to air blast the heatsinks and you'll probably be okay.

[tannerj]

Does anyone know for how long they will honor these repairs? I haven't checked my manufacture date (my baby is at home right now, I'm out with my HP Mini ATM), and I also haven't experienced any issues yet, but I'm curious if there is a deadline to worry about. I know the nvidia settlement for HP/Dell and others has a deadline for filing by March 14th, 2011 (see http://www.nvidiasettlement.com). I'm just curious should my laptop fall under the affected manufacture dates, as I'm understandably worried about the symptoms popping up after any deadline for a claim that they might have.

I know there's no control over when it will happen, and you can't send it in unless it's actually exhibiting symptoms, but any deadline related to this would definitely be nice to know

[eecon]

Does anyone know for how long they will honor these repairs? I haven't checked my manufacture date (my baby is at home right now, I'm out with my HP Mini ATM), and I also haven't experienced any issues yet, but I'm curious if there is a deadline to worry about. I know the nvidia settlement for HP/Dell and others has a deadline for filing by March 14th, 2011 (see http://www.nvidiasettlement.com). I'm just curious should my laptop fall under the affected manufacture dates, as I'm understandably worried about the symptoms popping up after any deadline for a claim that they might have.

I know there's no control over when it will happen, and you can't send it in unless it's actually exhibiting symptoms, but any deadline related to this would definitely be nice to know

Lenovo never reached any settlement as they never officially admitted there is a problem (Nvidia must have rolled them over good). They tend to handle it on a case by case basis depending on the mood of the CS rep you happen to reach on any give day and the Country of origin of the unit.

Your question should be asked here (and quickly I might add):

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T61-and-pri ... 935#M55386

[sktn77a]

I bricked my T61p while upgrading the BIOS in December. The motherboard was replaced under warranty but there are no identification stickers visible in the open battery compartment. Is there any way of identifying the manufacture date of the replacement motherboard?

Thanks,

[DK6400Brian]

I'll get in touch with Customer Support Denmark first thing monday morning with the intention of replacing the mainboard on this thing. T61p, 6457-7XG, manufactored march 2008, guaranteed another 33 days.

Initially bought the machine July 2010 second hand, but got so scared afterwards, reading the many posts of dead T61p around the globe. Not knowing what kind of heavy load this machine have experienced previously and not knowing for how long the machine will last if nothing is done, I gave TPfancontrol the most aggressive configuration I could think of, after I've monitored, experienced and came up with a balance: Fan-64 at temperatures above 46 degrees Celcius, Fan-7 at 45 C, Fan-5 at 44 C, Fan-4 at 43 C, Fan-3 at 42 C, Fan-2 at 41 C, Fan-1 at 40 C and Fan-0 at 39 C.

The balance with Fan-64 at 46 C is great, because this temperature is easily reached when using the computer with GPU intensive work, such as video playback, Google Earth Flight Simulator and such, but during more non-intensive and relaxed usage, the fan at Fan-7 takes care of the heat in a more silenced manner and keeps the temperature at 45 C at all times with a tolerable noiselevel.
This is how I've tried to take care of the nVidia issue on my own, hopefully avoiding the dead GPU-failure.

So far so good, but it's a catastrophee that I even have to do all this stuff with a topnotch Lenovo machine. That's why I'm looking forward to have the mainboard replaced ASAP and along with others, I'm keeping my eyes up for other manufactors, when it's time to buy a new machine. I'm realy not impressed with the newer line of Thinkpads.
IMHO The Z61p is the last pretty and wellbuild IBM/Lenovo machine I've seen. Much prettier than this T61p with its floppy hinges and cheap keyboard.

[edit]
Checked cpuz:
Motherboard: rev. C0
Graphics: nVidia Quattro FX 570M, Code Name G84, rev. A2

[Stadsport]

I bricked my T61p while upgrading the BIOS in December. The motherboard was replaced under warranty but there are no identification stickers visible in the open battery compartment. Is there any way of identifying the manufacture date of the replacement motherboard?

Thanks,

I'm curious about this too. I just got a used T61 with 08/03 on the sticker. Doubtful as it is, I'd like to see if the motherboard has been replaced.

[eecon]

I bricked my T61p while upgrading the BIOS in December. The motherboard was replaced under warranty but there are no identification stickers visible in the open battery compartment. Is there any way of identifying the manufacture date of the replacement motherboard?

Thanks,

I'm curious about this too. I just got a used T61 with 08/03 on the sticker. Doubtful as it is, I'd like to see if the motherboard has been replaced.

I have one of the "fixed" from birth August 2008 built T61p units (08/08 on the bottom sticker) that I purchased new and although always been docked, it's been used pretty heavily with 3D GeoTechincal programs that stress the CPU and GPU as hard as any gaming progtam would.

My CPU-Z v1.57 reads out exactly the same as DK6400Brian's March 2008 T61p:

Motherboard: rev. C0
Graphics: nVidia Quattro FX 570M, Code Name G84, rev. A2

Remember guys, it's really not the GPUs or Mobos themselves that were defective in the July 2008 and earlier units, it was the soldering material specsification provided by Nvidia that is rumored to have been the problem. The repair is a replacement of the same mobo and GPU used on mine but just with a different soldering material in a bunch of different areas if what I've heard. Lenovo and Nvidia have been very tight-lipped about the repair procedure, root cause, etc.

[Stadsport]

I have one of the "fixed" from birth August 2008 built T61ps (08/08 on the sticker) that I purchased new and although always been docked, it's been used pretty heavily with 3D GeoTechincal programs that stress the GPU as hard as any gaming would.

My CPU-Z v1.57 reads out exactly the same as DK6400Brian's March 2008 T61p:

Motherboard: rev. C0
Graphics: nVidia Quattro FX 570M, Code Name G84, rev. A2
Remember it's really not the GPUs or Mobo themselves that were defective in the July 2008 and earlier units, it was the soldering material specsification provided by Nvidia that is rumored to have been the problem. The repair is a replacement of the same mobo and GPU used on mine but just with a different soldering material in a bunch of different areas if what I've heard. Lenovo and Nvidia have been very tight-lipped about the repair procedure, root cause, etc.

I was just wondering if there's a known sign to see that the service has been performed; a sticker inside or something.

It's good to know that it's just a soldering problem, though. If mine fails in the distant future when lenovo is no longer opting to fix them, I can resolder it myself.

[eecon]

I was just wondering if there's a known sign to see that the service has been performed; a sticker inside or something.

It's good to know that it's just a soldering problem, though. If mine fails in the distant future when lenovo is no longer opting to fix them, I can resolder it myself.

I'm not sure about any visible stickers.

The problem with resoldering is finding the correct spec soldering material .... they are not releasing this info found in MIGR-75087 which has intentionally been pulled from public access (unlike most of all the other MIGR docs). Suspiciously interesting ......

[eecon]

BTW, What are you folks typically seeing for temps on your T61p Nvidia GPU (FX 570M w/256mb) after idling for 10 or 15 minutes (or longer) with Power Manager set for Max Power settings and running off shore power.

My 15.4" 1680x1050 T61p with a T9300 2.5GHz CPU (August 2008 Build with the "fixed" Nvidia GPU) never idles much below 60°C (130°F) in a 22°C (72°F) room using HWMonitor v1.17 as the temp monitoring program.

When working very hard on 3D Engineering apps for an hour straight (or when running 3DMark06 v1.20 five or six times in a row back to back) I've seen the Nvidia GPU temp climb to 80°C.

BTW, I'm getting a 4800 overall score using WinXP Pro on my T9300 2.5GHz T61p with the 3dMark06 Benchmark program. FWIW, my T61 T7500 2.2GHz only scores about 1700 with the NVS 140M Nvidia GPU .... with all other things being equal including the 15.4" display. I guess the FX 570M really makes a big difference on 3D scores over the NVS 140M.

Just curious since I've got the one of those "fixed" T61p units (factory built August 2008).

Thanks!

[RealBlackStuff]

If it were just a matter of reflowing, resp. reballing the GPU, many people would have done that by now.
It's not a matter of poor soldering instructions/specs for placing the GPU onto the motherboard.
The problem lies INSIDE the GPU itself, where substrates are coming loose, due to bad INTERNAL soldering techniques.
This requires a GPU chip replacement.

[DK6400Brian]

My CPU-Z v1.57 reads out exactly the same as DK6400Brian's March 2008 T61p:

Motherboard: rev. C0
Graphics: nVidia Quattro FX 570M, Code Name G84, rev. A2

Since I bought my unit second hand in July 2010, I can't rule out, if a replacement have taken place during the first ownership.

[DK6400Brian]

BTW, What are you folks typically seeing for temps on your T61p Nvidia GPU (FX 570M w/256mb) after idling for 10 or 15 minutes (or longer) with Power Manager set for Max Power settings and running off shore power.

In HWiNFO32 I found some additional information:

Video Chipset: nVIDIA Quadro FX 570M (G84GLM)
Video BIOS Version: 60.84.51.00.00
Video Chipset Revision: A1 In CPUZ it reads A2

Well, idle temperatures are a bit funny, because HWiNFO seems to read from the core itself whereas TPfancontrol takes its GPU-reading from somewhere else:

TPfancontrol: 44 C or 111 F
HWiNFO: 60 C or 140 F

[eecon]

BTW, What are you folks typically seeing for temps on your T61p Nvidia GPU (FX 570M w/256mb) after idling for 10 or 15 minutes (or longer) with Power Manager set for Max Power settings and running off shore power.

In HWiNFO32 I found some additional information:

Video Chipset: nVIDIA Quadro FX 570M (G84GLM)
Video BIOS Version: 60.84.51.00.00
Video Chipset Revision: A1 In CPUZ it reads A2

Well, idle temperatures are a bit funny, because HWiNFO seems to read from the core itself whereas TPfancontrol takes its GPU-reading from somewhere else:

TPfancontrol: 44 C or 111 F
HWiNFO: 60 C or 140 F

Thanks for the idle temp info and I also get the same info from HWiNFO32 v3.70 (including the A1 discrepancy where CPU-Z shows A2).

Take a look at this Forum about getting free repairs from Lenovo:

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T61-and-pri ... 119#M55481

BTW, what is the date code underneath your unit just to the right of the S/N .... format is YR/Mo ..... some 08/07 (July 2008 builds) also got the new "fix" because that was the transition month.

Otherwise, it may already have had it's mobo/GPU replaced, especially if you bought as "factory reburbished" from a reputable dealer.

[DK6400Brian]

BTW, what is the date code underneath your unit just to the right of the S/N .... format is YR/Mo .....

It says: 08/03.
Type 6457-7GX machine, T61p

It's a private secondhand buy (through a local Danish eBay-style auctionsite). Nothing with regard to a replacement of the planar/mainboard was ever mentioned by the seller. It could mean, that a replacement never took place. It could also be that it has been replaced, but the seller found it "best" not to mention any of it (Not ruining the sale)

As a matter of a fact, the keyboard need cleaning and I'll take it apart during the week and have a look at the mainboard to see if anything can be concluded from it. Chips typically have week/year stamped upon them. Some of the other chips onboard might reveal something...might have a later date printed than march 2008

BTW, can anything be drawn from the Video BIOS Version# ? As mentioned, my March machine reads 60.84.51.00.00.
The G84GLM readout from my Video Chipset. Grasping for straws here, but could the GLM mean anything...internal version or something ? What are your HWMonitor telling ?

[eecon]

If it were just a matter of reflowing, resp. reballing the GPU, many people would have done that by now.
It's not a matter of poor soldering instructions/specs for placing the GPU onto the motherboard.
The problem lies INSIDE the GPU itself, where substrates are coming loose, due to bad INTERNAL soldering techniques.
This requires a GPU chip replacement.

Thanks ..... There are a lot of claims floating around the Lenovo Support Forums that at home bench reballing has worked so far without subsequent failure (but just give it some time). One reported re-failure so far just 3 months after having Lenovo's Depot repair the issue, however.

BTW, Lenovo insists the entire mobo has to also be replaced .... I be interested in your thoughts on that as it sounds kind of suspicious and maybe there was another reason Lenovo never agreed to include themselves in the Nvidia settlement for the same series of defective Nvidia GPUs (unlike Dell, HP, etc who participated and got their customer's units repaired at no cost even years beyond warranty expiration).

Something funny going on here in not publicly releasing Lenovo MIGR-75087.

I'm just glad my T61p is an Aug08 build with warranty to Aug12.

[eecon]

BTW, what is the date code underneath your unit just to the right of the S/N .... format is YR/Mo .....

It says: 08/03.
Type 6457-7GX machine, T61p

It's a private secondhand buy (through a local Danish eBay-style auctionsite). Nothing with regard to a replacement of the planar/mainboard was ever mentioned by the seller. It could mean, that a replacement never took place. It could also be that it has been replaced, but the seller found it "best" not to mention any of it (Not ruining the sale)

As a matter of a fact, the keyboard need cleaning and I'll take it apart during the week and have a look at the mainboard to see if anything can be concluded from it. Chips typically have week/year stamped upon them. Some of the other chips onboard might reveal something...might have a later date printed than march 2008

BTW, can anything be drawn from the Video BIOS Version# ? As mentioned, my March machine reads 60.84.51.00.00.
The G84GLM readout from my Video Chipset. Grasping for straws here, but could the GLM mean anything...internal version or something ? What are your HWMonitor telling ?

My read-outs are identical to yours ..... I'm waiting for RealBlackStuff to weigh in here again as the expert that I am not. Be sure to blow clean the shared heat sink for the CPU/GPU once you have the keyboard off. Minimizing heat cycling will lessen the chance of the failure .... I bring my unit down to it's lowest power level setting using Power Manager and let it idle that way all day when not in use and then over-night it in Standby mode ..... rebooting only once every few days or so.

It is always docked and rarely goes cold to save a few watts of energy primarily because I'm no Al Gore fan.

[DK6400Brian]

Be sure to blow clean the shared heat sink for the CPU/GPU once you have the keyboard off. Minimizing heat cycling will lessen the chance of the failure .... I bring my unit down to it's lowest power level setting using Power Manager and let it idle that way all day when not in use and then over-night it in Standby mode ..... rebooting only once every few days or so.

It is always docked and rarely goes cold to save a few watts of energy primarily because I'm no Al Gore fan.

Neither am I, but who are a fan of that guy these days ? I find Alex Jones' movies much more revealing than Al Gore, but that's a sidenote.

I've had ThinkPads since 1998 so I'm used to take'em apart and they'll usually get the full cleanup once they're opened.
This machine is on full throttle and the aggressive TPfan-setting takes care of the rest.

Just took a trip with the Google Earth Flight Simulator in fullscreen mode (F11) and I couldn't get the GPU over 47-48 C in TPfan, toggling back and forth just to check.
Also, during fullscreen viewing of a 1280x720 HDTV broadcast, the temperature never exceeded 48 C in TPfan. Running in the background gives 46 C.
Of course, this can only be done will full clearence of the inlets in the bottom of the machine. Once these are covered or the fan outlets are blocked, the temperature can rise considerably. I've given the machine some filted 4 mm stickypads on the bottom and are using the machine on a daily basis on top of a thin (3-4 mm) plate of plywood so it can be used as a Laptop without blocking any vents.

In other words, I keep the machine cool , but with full throttle.

[edit] All in all, the machine is kept between 43 C (idle) and 48 C (roadrunner) whenever it's fired up. Standby when not in use. Rebooting perhaps twice a month.

Oh, and by the way. The battery is kept between 30-52 %. Never at 100% and only if it's forgotten, it occationally gets to deepcycle at 18-20%. Even after a full year of service, it still got 91% capacity. (Estimated. Machine bought in July 2010 with a used battery) At least 8 months in any case. It has lost a few percentage since.

[eecon]

DK6400Brian:

Could you please try using HDiNFO32 or HWMonitor readings for those stress tests?

I don't completely trust the accuracy of the TPfancontrol readings, plus with HDiNFO or HWMonitor we can both be comparing apples-with-apples as to the temp location being monitored.

BTW, I too keep my docking station elevated using a pair of old palm rests for underside ventilation clearance plus Power Manager's battery recharge setting set to keep the battery dated Aug2008 between 35% and 40%. I still have 88% of new battery capacity remaining after nearly 2.5 years (using Power Manager's resetting feature twice annually .... which is about the only time I ever have to undock it).

Since my screen lid is always closed with the unit's screen off (I use an external KB, Monitor and Mouse), I suppose I could be running a bit warmer than those who use the unit's actual keypad and screen, which would allow for some additional convective cooling.

Looks like great minds think alike ....... Thanks

[DK6400Brian]

DK6400Brian:
Could you please try using HDiNFO32 or HWMonitor readings for those stress tests?

Sure.

HWMonitor:

NVIDIA Quadro FX-570M, Min 59 C, Max 64 C

Intel Mobile Core 2 Duo T7800
Core #0, Min 59 C, Max 63 C
Core #1, Min 56 C, Max 62 C

TPfancontrol take the CPU reading from THM0. Where it gets the GPU reading from...ehh..I don't know.

[eecon]

DK6400Brian:
Could you please try using HDiNFO32 or HWMonitor readings for those stress tests?

Sure.

HWMonitor:

NVIDIA Quadro FX-570M, Min 59 C, Max 64 C

Intel Mobile Core 2 Duo T7800
Core #0, Min 59 C, Max 63 C
Core #1, Min 56 C, Max 62 C

TPfancontrol take the CPU reading from THM0. Where it gets the GPU reading from...ehh..I don't know.

Thanks ..... my GPU minimum with HWMonitor is also 59°C, but I can get it up to 80°C with my intensive 3-D Engineering programs or running 3DMark06 v1.20 over and over again for about 30 minutes (screen lid closed). I better pull out the KB and blow off the CPU/GPU heat sink as I have not done that in a while, plus my screen lid is closed which will hold in more heat.

I'll clean things up and retry with the screen lid open next week to see if I can improve on my 80°C max, although I don't think that comes close to the danger level ..... I think 90°C is where the FX 570M GPU may be getting into overheating trouble (someone please correct me on this if I'm wrong).

Thanks

[RealBlackStuff]

I'm waiting for RealBlackStuff to weigh in here again as the expert that I am not....

I'm no expert either, but have discussed this extensively with my The Board Room partner poshgeordie/Nick, who has described this on his own website in the UK: http://reflowrepairs.co.uk/news

[eecon]

I'm no expert either, but have discussed this extensively with my The Board Room partner poshgeordie/Nick, who has described this on his own website in the UK: http://reflowrepairs.co.uk/news

Must be why Lenovo went back to ATI graphics after the problems with Nvidia during the T61/T61p/R61 series. They used ATI in the T60s and earlier, then quickly returned to ATI after the end of the T61 run.

I think the issue only affected certain Nvidia GPUs from some research on Google. Either way, a bit of back luck for the pre-Aug2008 built T61/T61p owners.

But still curious as to the specifics of the fix that was applied by Lenovo, Dell, Hp, etc to elimate the problem on units that had the bad batch of Nvidia GPUs. It had to be more than just Infrared Reflowing the GPU since Lenovo insists the whole mobo has to be replaced on the affected pre-August 2008 built units with Nvidia GPUs.

[kaede]

well apparently the motherboard replacement not working here in singapore. after almost 2 weeks they replied my email with a link to lenovo forum. im quite surprised since my 1st call the CS not aware of any free replacement with defective nvidia board. even i mention about the lenovo forum thread. basically the 2nd call i follow the "script" by eecon. they acknowedge about the MIGR number. but then after almost 2 weeks. they replied my email with a bad news. that my warranty expired more than 6 month. so they cannot proceed with the free repair. just to share my tought.

[eecon]

well apparently the motherboard replacement not working here in singapore. after almost 2 weeks they replied my email with a link to lenovo forum. im quite surprised since my 1st call the CS not aware of any free replacement with defective nvidia board. even i mention about the lenovo forum thread. basically the 2nd call i follow the "script" by eecon. they acknowedge about the MIGR number. but then after almost 2 weeks. they replied my email with a bad news. that my warranty expired more than 6 month. so they cannot proceed with the free repair. just to share my tought.

Keep trying ...... check the latest success story here:

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T61-and-pri ... 701#M55676