T60 - the best Thinkpad ever made?

[propellen]

Is there any worthy replacement alternatives for the T60 these days? Or is it all downhill when T60 owners choose to upgrade?

EDIT:
Typo corrected.

[dr_st]

I like the T60 a lot. "Best ever made" is a tricky title - I don't know how it is possibly to objectively quantify "best".

If we are staying with the T-series (to compare apples to apples), I personally found the T61/T400 not be worthy successors, but the T410 in many ways is. It seems well-designed, and offers enough innovation. The T420 may or may not be an even more worthy one, depending on one's attitude towards 16:9 screens. Of course, if you swear by 4:3, then nothing past the T60 and the rare 4:3 14" T61s would satisfy you.

[Raceboy]

It's the fastest ThinkPad you can get with FlexView (unless you use 4:3 T61 planar in T60) and if you are fan of that, then yes, there is hardly any better ThinkPads out there. Not to mention lack of any typical faults that have plagued previous and former generations of T series (namely T4x and T61 GPU problems).

I would even as far as trying to install a T410 motherboard to T60 chassis in order to use FlexView if the üprocessing power becomes weak. Of course I haven't even checked if it is possible at all...

[pianowizard]

I don't know how it is possibly to objectively quantify "best".

How about "best" by standards of the time the Thinkpad was introduced? Using such a criterion, I would think the 600 series remains the best Thinkpad ever made. The T60 might be the second best.

[Johan]

Is there any worthy replacement alternatives for the T60 these days? Or is it all downhill when T60 owners choose to upgrade?

This subject of "what ThinkPad is best" seems to come up regularly (although typically in the GENERAL ThinkPad News/Comments & Questions sub-forum) and a few relevant threads are Best Quality Thinkpad of the last 5 years?? and Best ThinkPad Ever and The best looking ThinkPad.

As to your question of "a worthy replacement" I think you ought to provide us with a bit more information (!), such as: For what purpose would you (perhaps) want to upgrade your T60; in other words: Why aren't you satisfied with your T60; is it too slow, too heavy, is its display too poor (??), does it have too short battery life, too little memory, too slow/small GPU etc etc.? Without knowing this I find it very difficult to respond (intelligently!) to your request for input...

Personally, I'm very fond of my genuine IBM T42p with its 4:3 15" FlexView/IPS UXGA LCD and its Thai-made NMB keyboard, a PM765 CPU (2.1 GHz Pentiumn-M), a fast SLC SSD, and also otherwise maxed out (2 GB RAM, fast DVD-RW, Atheros-WLAN) - it suit my needs and in my view it is aesthetically very pleasing! As a second comes the 4:3 15" FlexView/IPS T60, especially for its faster CPU, and its ability to take a fast SATA SSD. From an eye-pleasing point of view, however, the T60 falls behind the T42/p.

If I wanted to upgrade a T60, then I'd take the T61-mobo-in-a-T60-frame with an UXGA FlexView/IPS LCD... see e.g. the thread Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo?. The T61 mobo, apart from the much higher memory-limit (compared to the approx. 3 GB in T60's), and its ability to take a much faster CPU (if necessary?), also allows the T61p bios hack for ICH8M SATA-II 3 Gbps after which you have the full SATA-300 speed potential! Maybe worth to consider?

Johan

[ThinkRob]

Honestly, if the build tolerances were lower and if the screen were just a bit more rigid, I'd say that the T410 is the best ever.

The tolerances are wide, however, and the screen is a little too flexible, so I would agree; the T60 is quite possibly the best of the T series. (Although the 4:3 T61 might be just ever-so-slightly superior due to the LCD housing...)

[Harryc]

@ Johan, I am glad you've returned. It's great to see the in depth and insightful threads again.

[pianowizard]

@ Johan, I am glad you've returned. It's great to see the in depth and insightful threads again.

I am glad too. It feels like this forum is back to normal. LOL!

[underclocker]

Johan, great response!

Regarding the OP's question, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a T410 or T410s for 14" use or a T500 or W500 for 15.4" use.

The T410, T500 and W500 are all solid designs and great performers. The T410s is amazingly feature rich and fast in a very thin and light chassis - just under 4 lbs. - but it does give up a something on the durability front.

[Norway Pad]

I also see the T60 as the top of the line Thinkpad that I have owned so far, while the later T61 and T400/500 series have always been out of the question for me for various reasons. With the launch of the T410/510, I saw the them going somehow "back to the roots" stylewise and they are so far the only Thinkpads I would consider as a replacement for my T60. Luckily I just got a brand new T510 from work, which gave me an excellent chance to get to know one of these laptops.

And the major initial disappointment, coming from an 4:3 UXGA IPS panel, is of course the screen, both in shape and quality. The 16:9 format is annoying when you are not used to it, and the initial feel is that the screen is brighter, but has lower qualit, more washed out colors. However, to make a really fair comparison, I will have to do a side by side comparison with the T60. I did actually bring the T510 back home this weekend to do just that.

Apart from that, the 510's build quality seems good, and it matches the T60 design wise, while they are beat by the good old T43. Most practical things like computing perfomance and the choice of built-in ports is of course better. The keyboard doesn't have the same good feel as the T60's, but that will be another point for the side by side comparison. The long term quality is something we need another 1-2 years to know more about, but so far I feel that the T510 is a worthy replacement. If you are able to live with a 16:9 panel...

Anyone know if the T410 internals will fit in a T60 chassi and be comaptible with a UXGA IPS panel? A project for one of the daring users here on the forum.

[ThinkRob]

Good post, Norway Pad! As far as the T410/T510 keyboard: it's quite different than the T60, but I'm not sure it's any better or worse... just different. It's got less travel, but more predictable activation, and from the ones I've used so far seems to avoid feeling "mushy" with age.

[Brian10161]

I love my T60. I'm close to thinking it's the best notebook I have owned. I have owned a few notebooks, but none come quite close to this T60 in terms of build quality.

I have owned a few notebooks, HP, Asus, Toshiba, Dell, Acer and a few others. They all have their own nice points, but for the most part, my T60 has been my favorite.

a 4:3 screen, built in WiFi, SATA, a decent dual core processor and video card, and above all, excellent build quality. Absolutely no flex in it. I bought my T60 used, but it was still like new when I got it. Just a little dent in the plastic on the palmrest near the bottom left corner.

I'd love to have a widescreen T410s, but I just don't have the cash right now. My X40 is great for school. My X60s is trashed for the most part and I hardly use it anymore. I bought it used off ebay. Probably should have returned it. But I needed it for school at the time.

[wookey24]

Anyone know if the T410 internals will fit in a T60 chassi and be comaptible with a UXGA IPS panel? A project for one of the daring users here on the forum.

I also have a similar idea, however, from the first look the motherboards are completely different, so it seems without the radical chassis alteration it will not fit. The question is if it is possible to connect a IPS panel?

[fafaforza]

I don't know about you guys, but I love 3:4 ThinkPads, and if not for that huge dead zone on my T61's LCD housing, it would be my favorite by far. I just can't get into the whole widescreen laptop thing. The 15" is too wide to comfortably hold on your lap, and the 14" ones have less than ideal resolutions. The 14" just fits my hands like a glove. I rue the day Lenovo switched to widescreen panels.

[racc]

At least my upgrade from T60 to T410s was a kind of failure. I did it in order to get a lighter, powerful computer with better display. I planned to replace both my desktop computer and T60 with it. However, I was not especially happy with result.

T410s Cons:
-Reduced vertical resolution (1050->900, 150 lines) really hurts e.g. when trying to read PDF books with A4 sized pages full-screen and in similar situations. I did not expect it to bother this much.
-Display frame is huge compared to T60 14".
-Because of aspect ratios, the display area in 14" T60 is 5.5% larger. It also has 13.4% more pixels.
-Microphone jack was removed so I can't plug my electric guitar directly to laptop anymore, or use a proper external microphone. I have only bad experience with internal Thinkpad microphones. Looks like it has also been removed from the bigger T410. This was a disappointing surprise I didn't expect.
-CardBus slot was removed. I am unable to use my E-MU CardBus interface anymore, so DSP card, external preamps, AD/DA converters, audio and MIDI interfaces are all useless. I knew this beforehand, so no problem... kind of.
-There is no FireWire connector either, which prevents using many external audio interfaces and connecting to DV cameras.
-1.8" HDD slot prevents swapping my 2.5" Intel SSD from T60 to T410s. Availability of proper 1.8" SSD is still not good here. I have also started to wonder whether Intel is actually going to ship 1.8" 320 series SSD or not.
-I don't like the keyboard as much as T60's and T43p.
-ExpressCard/34 slot is occupied by a memory card reader.
-Can't use big 9-cell battery pack, which offers very nice battery life for a CoreDuo 14" T60 with integrated graphics and SSD.
-Can't use old docks. I have not yet bought a new dock because I consider selling the T410s.

Pros:
+Powered USB port. Nice to have, but at least once I noticed it was not delivering current until I actually switched T410s on.
+Lighter. However, a T60 14" with SSD, without optical drive and with a small battery isn't terribly heavy either.
+Looks nice.
+Speakers are better.
+Display is brighter.
+Display hinges look very nice. They feel very similar than the hinges of a few years old used T60.

Other:
+/-Much more powerful CPU, though performance is not noticeable in daily use at least without a SSD.
+/-It is wider than a 4:3 14" T60. Otherwise it is more compact. I don't find the difference significant.
+/-Cooling system does not seem to have improved at all, though T60 was not bad to begin with.

T410s is a very fine computer, but I would recommend to consider an upgrade from a 4:3 T60 to T4x0(s) series very carefully. Bang4buck here for me ended up very low.

[Binh]

I don't think that T60 is the best thinkpad. Reasons:
- 15 inch screen models very often have broken structure frame near VGA output and under touchpad (I am doing a research on this problem now and will post my observations later).
- Keyboard quality is not as high as T4x
- Touchpad area is too small
- Cheap looking power and audio buttons. No color strip on mouse buttons.
- Poor design in the right part of palm rest above HDD (flexing, poor HDD noise isolation).
- Poor design of heatsink in regards of GPU.
- 3GB memory limitation is too low for its time (though this is an Intel's fault).

[mrybczyn]

The X220 with IPS screen looks like it could be better than the T60p. But its 6 years down the road now.

For a long time, there was nothing to compare, and I didn't even give any Lenovo product a second glance until the X220...

[yak]

T410s Cons:
-Microphone jack was removed so I can't plug my electric guitar directly to laptop anymore, or use a proper external microphone. I have only bad experience with internal Thinkpad microphones. Looks like it has also been removed from the bigger T410. This was a disappointing surprise I didn't expect.

The microphone jack has been combined with the headphone jack. You can buy a splitter that will separate them.

I don't think that T60 is the best thinkpad. Reasons: (...)

You're not saying which ThinkPad did better. We know T60 isn't perfect but most people consider it better than other models in most regards.

[dr_st]

The microphone jack has been combined with the headphone jack.

IMO, one of the dumbest design decisions in the history of Thinkpads. I could write a medium essay on it, but don't have the energy ATM.

[yak]

IMO, one of the dumbest design decisions in the history of Thinkpads. I could write a medium essay on it, but don't have the energy ATM.

I don't know. It seems to me that most people don't need a microphone port, especially since a lot of VoIP headsets use USB ports, but I agree that it looks like they haven't even tried to keep the jacks separate. And even if they had some design problems (that we don't know of) that forced them to do it, the least they could do was to bundle a splitter cable with every machine.

Oh well, at least they combined them instead of just throwing the microphone jack away...

[Binh]

You're not saying which ThinkPad did better. We know T60 isn't perfect but most people consider it better than other models in most regards.

I don't have much Thinkpads to use, only TP 375 (do not remember model exactly, this was a 1996-1997 model), 390E, all T series from T40 up to T400. In my opinion, T42 is the best thinkpad for its time. It only has a potential GPU flexing problem, but if you are a bit carreful, it won't be a significant problem. Personally, I don't have any problem with GPU in T4x series.

Many people said that TP 600x is the best Thinkpads ever made. But I did not have a chance to use it so I can not say anything about it. I my memory, TP 770 was also very interesting.

[craigmontHunter]

The microphone jack has been combined with the headphone jack.

IMHO, they should have A, included the splitter as mentioned above, or B made a seprate mic jack as well as using the headset jack instead of a plain headphone port. It makes sense when you consider that phones do use the single port, and if you are travelling, it makes sense to minimize the amount of equipment you need to cary.

[ajkula66]

I've owned numerous T60/p units, some really well-kept and high-end, never kept any of them...

Well-made? For the most part, absolutely.

But oh-so-bland at the same time, at least in my book...