Why no DVI: IBM/Dell/HP

[jtreble]

I was surprised to find no DVI-out on the new TP43Ps but then I looked around a bit and found the that other new 915-based "workstation class" laptops don't have it either (Dell M70, HP nw8000).

Why have all these manufacturers opted to implement DVI on the replicator/dock?

[skuehne]

One reason certainly is that many projectors are still using VGA connectors. All the Apple Powerbook users around me usually pack their DVI-to-VGA adaptors when they have to give presentations.

I think we're still in a transitional phase. VGA connectors eventually will go away, but they are still in widespread use. One of the next ThinkPad lines will surely come with DVI ...

Sven

[mattfromomaha]

How much better is DVI than VGA, anyways? My understanding is that VGA is the same as R/G/B/H/V video signals, which in the video industry is pretty much as good as it gets?

Anyways, the Port Replicator II does have a DVI, which is what I use to connect to my external L150p monitor.

[none]

One reason certainly is that many projectors are still using VGA connectors.

Yep.. I would love a DVI connector as well, but IBM makes business machines, so they cater to office needs first.

[arion]

DVI (Digital Video Interface) is a lot better than RGB. But DVI is a bit of a mess. Limited throughput and there are Digital DVI and Analog DVI some watch for that.

Most Digital TVs (LCDs, Plasma) still only come with Analog input. There is a new interface called HDMI that combines digital video and audio together into an interface similar to USB but it is slow to take off so far.

[gazingwa]

My year old toshiba 34" hd has digital, my hd dvr from time warner is digital on both items, the analog portion of the dvi is blocked, you can't even plug a dvi analog cable into them. hdmi uses the same interface as dvi it just adds audio to the cable, there are converters. my desktop radeon 9800 pro came with 1 dvi, 1 15 pin, and a dvi to 15 pin converter... there is no reason for the t43 to not have dvi with a converter(uses the analog portion of dvi for 15 pin and digital if you plug a cable into it)

[kev009]

DVI is best for flat panels where running the display with a digital signal reduces complexity. VGA is not "bad", it is just the trend toward LCD displays that make the push for DVI (which most often supports digital and analog depending on the cable/connector) what we see today.

[trikster2]

Most companies provide DVI via a docking station with DVI passthrough. The logic is when you hook up your monitor you'll have your docking station, but on the road a projector will need the VGA.

For me DVI on the notebook would make sense, I commute between two houses, and Don't want to buy two docking stations.

If you want DVI on your laptop you have several non-IBM options:

Dell 9300 and XPS-2 (DVI and VGA dual monitor goodness)
Acer 8103/8104
Apple Powerbooks (latest ones even have dual-dvi)

Am I missing any? DVI is still a rare bird on notebooks.

[beeblebrox]

another question. Look around your T-notebook. where would you find a place for an additional connector?

The only solution would be to drop the parallel port. Most corporates would then have a big problem.

So I think the T50 will have the HDMI port, which would solve all problems, HDTV, DVI and VGA. I think I have read that the HDMI standard has just been fixed these days.

[trikster2]

> Most corporates would then have a big problem.

Really? That may have been true a year or two ago but my shop would have no problem. Most of our printers are networked, and any non-networked printer is USB.

Plus you don't need to get rid of it, all you need to do is move the printer port to the docking station.

[skuehne]

The only solution would be to drop the parallel port. Most corporates would then have a big problem.

Parallel ports for printers is legacy technology. Even for the most conservative corporate places it is time to move on. Use networked printers. And if you really do have to have printer on your desk, there's USB or (worst case) a parallel port on a docking station ...

Sven

[Kenn]

The only solution would be to drop the parallel port. Most corporates would then have a big problem.

Parallel ports for printers is legacy technology. Even for the most conservative corporate places it is time to move on. Use networked printers. And if you really do have to have printer on your desk, there's USB or (worst case) a parallel port on a docking station ...

Sven

Beeblebrox is right. The thing is, we're not just talking about upgrading 5-10 printers to the $50 USB-enabled Epson printers. Corporations that order hundreds/thousands of thinkpads (with service contracts) often have a myriad of requirements. For example, some departments have old parallel-port plotters that are hard to replace or may cost $50k each to do so. Some departments have legacy or custom apps that require parallel port dongles in order to work - updating the program could requiring hiring a team of developers who know Fortran or Cobol for 6 months, who knows. Some may still need to use parallel or serial ports to communicate with proprietary workstation/mainframe hardware, something that would take literally millions of dollars and several years of engineering time in order to overhaul. That's not the same as just replacing a dozen inkjet printers!

My point is just not to over or underestimate the scope or scale of what many large corporations need. It sucks that we're stuck with a huge honking 25-pin port that we will likely never use (then again, I'm at my GF's apt right now, and she has a relatively recent HP Laserjet 1100 which only has a parallel port connection - and I'm glad the T42 still supports it), but as a "business notebook" the TP has to support the lowest common denominator determined by existing business needs, and unfortunately the TP will be one of the last notebooks to drop these legacy requirements because of its primary target market!

[trikster2]

Beeblebrox is right. The thing is, we're not just talking about upgrading 5-10 printers to the $50 USB-enabled Epson printers. Corporations that order hundreds/thousands of thinkpads (with service contracts) often have a myriad of requirements. For example, some departments have old parallel-port plotters that are hard to replace or may cost $50k each to do so. Some departments have legacy or custom apps that require parallel port dongles in order to work - updating the program could requiring hiring a team of developers who know Fortran or Cobol for 6 months, who knows. Some may still need to use parallel or serial ports to communicate with proprietary workstation/mainframe hardware, something that would take literally millions of dollars and several years of engineering time in order to overhaul. That's not the same as just replacing a dozen inkjet printers!

My point is just not to over or underestimate the scope or scale of what many large corporations need. It sucks that we're stuck with a huge honking 25-pin port that we will likely never use (then again, I'm at my GF's apt right now, and she has a relatively recent HP Laserjet 1100 which only has a parallel port connection - and I'm glad the T42 still supports it), but as a "business notebook" the TP has to support the lowest common denominator determined by existing business needs, and unfortunately the TP will be one of the last notebooks to drop these legacy requirements because of its primary target market!

Then we agree to disagree. We are not arguing that the printer port be eliminated, just that it be moved to the dockingstation.

If a corporation can afford a $2k thinpad for its 50K plotter and can't afford a $179 docking station it has more problems than parallel ports.

Dell has removed the printer port from it's top of the line business laptop, the Lattitude D810, and it's also removed from the similar top of the line business mobile graphics workstation the M70.

But then dell can make a profit on it's PC business. Maybe they do that by not catering to every "lowest common denominators".....

[beeblebrox]

I know, that the parallel port is the "reptilian" part of modern notebooks. I would get rid of it rather sooner than later.

Sure, the printers are on networks. But even in my firm, whenever we are on a business trip or transferred to another office for a project, we have problems to get the network printers working. So we always used the few laser printers for the pass-byers.
Those were not connected to any network, just parallel port. For a 2 day office stay nobody bothers to harrass local CIO to get the network set up for the particular visitor.
Yeah, the printers could be connected to a docking station. Makes sense.
But again, parallel ports are dying out, it just takes a few years like the good old floppy disks.

I am sure, that tiny HDMI port in the next notebook generation will solve all problems.

[kev009]

Since parallel ports seem to only need to be used by few, it'd be nice if they were moved to the dock and USB dongles. USB parallel port dongles can be fetched for next to nothing and meet all the requirements of legacy users.

[Kenn]

Then we agree to disagree. We are not arguing that the printer port be eliminated, just that it be moved to the dockingstation.

If a corporation can afford a $2k thinpad for its 50K plotter and can't afford a $179 docking station it has more problems than parallel ports.

Well, don't constrain yourself into thinking that it's purely an economical problem. It's not just about cost, or even short-term cost, but also convenience, productivity, and sheer utility - why did companies get "thin and light" notebooks to begin with, if their employees will be forced to 1) bring a huge docking station along with them throughout the corporate campus and while on the road, or 2) have to look around for a free docking station or requisition one from IT every time they need to use a parallel port? If this was a once-a-month task for one employee in the whole company, OK. But obviously the fact that company requirements still include parallel ports as standard suggests that it's more common, or worth more to the company than you think. In the end, what's worse, including a port that your employees use 5% of the time, or eliminating the port and having multiple occurrences where people forget their dongles (it happens a LOT, ask the DVi-to-VGA presentation folks, or in the ethernet-dongle-on-PC-card days), can't get a docking station, or can't bring one with them, and then they're completely SOL?

Also, as a frequent traveller, I've often ended up in hotels and needed to print things, and the only printer available is an old laser with a parallel port connection. In a pinch, and business is often about being in a pinch, it's much safer and cost-effective to spec out a machine that has an important requirement included rather than force employees to deal with extra baggage that either cannot be moved or is easy to lose.

And I think it's also fair to point out that thinkpads are marketed as business notebooks, and they exist to fulfill the requirements of their target market. I'm sure IBM isn't complaining about the fact that some "regular consumers" love and buy them as well, but right now it's asking a lot to suggest that they marginalize the needs of their primary market in favor of a minority.

But I think we both agree that eventually, everyone will be happy to see the parallel port go the way of the serial and PS/2 ports.

[Kenn]

Since parallel ports seem to only need to be used by few, it'd be nice if they were moved to the dock and USB dongles. USB parallel port dongles can be fetched for next to nothing and meet all the requirements of legacy users.

Remember, that makes a lot of sense for home computing uses, but we are in the minority as thinkpad purchasers. On the flipside, for large corporate purchase/lease requirements, the axiom is rather, "since parallel ports seem to be needed by enough users some of the time, it makes sense to include them on the machine so we don't have to worry about dealing with including dongles, ordering extra ones because people lose them, shipping dongles out to employees on the road, etc." For a company, that all amounts to a lot of minor headaches that can be so easily fixed by simpling including the parallel port on the machine as long as people need them.

Don't worry, in a few years even the thinkpad will drop them. Until then, let's not forget that of the many people these machines are primarily targeted for, a large percentage have requirements that are very different from our own!

[trikster2]

Since parallel ports seem to only need to be used by few, it'd be nice if they were moved to the dock and USB dongles. USB parallel port dongles can be fetched for next to nothing and meet all the requirements of legacy users.

I did not realized this Kev009. For around $10 you can get a parallel port to USB cable, much better solution than putting a port on a laptop that 90% of people do not use.

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?price ... ce=between

Looks like Dell (for a change) is on the right track on this issues. We brought a ton of Lattitude D800's and I'm sure we will buy a ton of parallel port free D810s.

[Kenn]

Looks like Dell (for a change) is on the right track on this issues. We brought a ton of Lattitude D800's and I'm sure we will buy a ton of parallel port free D810s.

Well that's the point right? If you don't need a parallel port and don't want one, anyone is free to buy a laptop that doesn't waste space/money including one. But you just need to recognize that there do exist users that do need it, and because there are enough of them out there, IBM decided to include it.

Just as your company shunned the thinkpad for the D800, thousands of corporate purchasers would have shunned the thinkpad if it didn't include a built-in parallel port. People with different needs buy different products, that's all. And in the end, having that choice is a good thing.

Also, I've used parallel and serial-to-USB converters before, and believe me, depending on what you're trying to use it with, driver and compatibility issues abound. It's not a magic bullet in any sense. And most companies would disagree with it being a "better solution" at all, when you consider the fact that people tend to lose and misplace dongles faster than they lose bic pens. Having a laptop that includes the port is a much better solution than wasting an entire day at a client site because you forgot to pack a $10 dongle!

[skuehne]

As a related question: Does anyone know if there are covers for the parallel and VGA port?

Sven

[qwasy]

As a related question: Does anyone know if there are covers for the parallel and VGA port?

Sven

Since they're standard ports you'll problably find plastic covers for them. IBM does not provide anything like this.

Concerning the parallel port discussion:
The last projects I've been involved in we always had to work with parallel port printers. As some mentioned above you cannot always expect to get a networked printer. The parellel port solution always works without any problems - afair from project work neither the usb-2-parallel nor the network printer thing does.