Buyer's Remorse

[miscthree]

I have to say, complaining about 16:9 is one thing, but to buy a laptop with something you know you won't like isn't lenovo's fault.

[drs]

OK, to hopefully put this thread to rest. I decided in the end to keep the T410. In fact, I am typing this post on it. But, after a few days of use, and carrying it across several airports in the last few days, I stand by my comments that it is too big, particularly for the loss of usable screen size, and it is too thick to be a good travel machine. And no, I don't think it ridiculous for me to be surprised that it got thicker. The T60 was right at the size limit for me to comfortably move around. The 410 just seems oversized -- call it the Pontiac Aztec of laptops Oddly, this seems to me, and perhaps only to me, to be a size and not weight issue. The t410 fels clnky where the T60 feels solid. Not sure I can explain that, but it is what it is.

Also, while I know that the 4:3 thing is a lost battle, with the change in screen size, I find that the keyboard is now too close to the screen, and the screen is too low to the desk -- I feel like I am hunching over and looking down more. If I were designing one of these, I think I'd drastically shrink the left and right bevel, move the screen higher (by shrinking the top bevel and increasing the bottom bevel), lose the speakers, and move the keyboard back a bit, basically giving the form factor of the T60 even with the dumb screen.

I did think about picking up an X300 or something, but while the form factor is alittle better, I think it is just too slow for what I need. I guess I'll look forward to the X320. Also, I went and tested a Dell, and the keyboard and mouse were horrid. While I think the T410 keyboard is a step back from the T60, it is way better than the Dell. And, for writing, I guess I get an external monitor and turn it sideways.

So, I guess I live with this for a while, and probably rather than keep it for 4 years, I'll keep my eye out for something better. We'll see what turns up. Maybe I'll learn to like it, but for now I have lost some faith in the Thinkpad name.

[dr_st]

Also, while I know that the 4:3 thing is a lost battle, with the change in screen size, I find that the keyboard is now too close to the screen, and the screen is too low to the desk.....I did think about picking up an X300 or something, but while the form factor is alittle better, I think it is just too slow for what I need. I guess I'll look forward to the X320.

Keep in mind though, that with a 13", the keyboard will probably be even closer to the screen, and the screen even closer to the desk.

BTW, you are not the only one who felt surprised at the T410 being thicker than previous T series. It looks like Lenovo somewhat addressed it with the T420, but most (all?) of the thickness savings come from the thinner LCD lid (a-la T410s). Not sure folks would like that.

[Adda]

Also, while I know that the 4:3 thing is a lost battle, with the change in screen size, I find that the keyboard is now too close to the screen, and the screen is too low to the desk -- I feel like I am hunching over and looking down more. If I were designing one of these, I think I'd drastically shrink the left and right bevel, move the screen higher (by shrinking the top bevel and increasing the bottom bevel), lose the speakers, and move the keyboard back a bit, basically giving the form factor of the T60 even with the dumb screen.

Yeah, widescreen laptops are a major cause of backpains and headaches, since they are so low.
It is worse with a very thin laptop though, from an ergonomic point of view, a thick laptop has a huge advantage, it's the reason why the A30 is so comfortable to use.

[drs]

it's the reason why the A30 is so comfortable to use.

Yeah, and this laptop basically feels like my old A series. Great desktop replacement, a little big for travel.

[pianowizard]

I find that the keyboard is now too close to the screen, and the screen is too low to the desk -- I feel like I am hunching over and looking down more.

To some forum members, I must be sounding like a broken record when I say this: Use a desktop computer whenever possible. Desktops have so many advantages over laptops, and what you said above is just one of them. Believe it or not, saving desktop space is another major advantage of desktops, because the CPU box can be put on the floor and you can push the monitor all the way to the back of the desk, thereby freeing up most of the desk for other things. For a laptop, the screen is so small and the pixel density is so high that it's impossible to place it very far from you.

[makaveli559m]

I hope I dont get buyers remorse, I won a T500 on bid on eBay my current system at the moment is a new R61 out of the box with 6GB of RAM, the T500 is also coming with 6GB of RAM. I would be disappointed if it would suck.

[Adda]

T500's quality varies a lot, the early ones have cheap plastics, flexy keyboards and weak screen hinges, the later models are every bit as good as a T61.

[ThinkRob]

T500's quality varies a lot, the early ones have cheap plastics, flexy keyboards and weak screen hinges, the later models are every bit as good as a T61.

Uh... AFAICT the only changes made to the T500 were the keyboards (some of the T6x series keyboards were used as interim replacement FRUs) and the addition of a keyboard support. I don't believe any other FRUs were changed.

[Adda]

Uh... AFAICT the only changes made to the T500 were the keyboards (some of the T6x series keyboards were used as interim replacement FRUs) and the addition of a keyboard support. I don't believe any other FRUs were changed.

Apart from the keyboard differences, they also come with at least two different kinds of plastic.
A cheap looking very dark gray, smooth type that tends to get deformed with age, and a more textured, black variant that doesn't get deformed, it also looks nicer.

[Colonel O'Neill]

I don't think I've ever seen the smooth type online.

[Adda]

The smooth type does have texture like all Thinkpads, but it's very fine.

[ThinkRob]

Apart from the keyboard differences, they also come with at least two different kinds of plastic.
A cheap looking very dark gray, smooth type that tends to get deformed with age, and a more textured, black variant that doesn't get deformed, it also looks nicer.

Do those parts have different FRUs?

[Adda]

Do those parts have different FRUs?

I have not checked, I don't have my T500 anymore, it was the one with poor plastics, it was made august 2008.
My dad has a late 2009 T500, can't remember the month, but it has a Windows 7 license, it has the black textured plastic.

[T7TrainingSystems]

This is exactly the experience I wish to avoid. Instead I just bought another T60 to back up my current T60.

Frankly, I can't even consider upgrading to newer model Thinkpad until Lenovo stop putting huge bezels around the screen. I mean, small bezels on T60 --> large bezels on T420... at least they're not off-centre like some of the models a few years ago were. I know it doesn't bother some people, but how can big/off-centre bezels be good for Thinkpad's image in the year 2011? I really don't get it.

[dr_st]

Do you know of a company that puts small bezels around their screens?

[ssd_thinkpad]

Do you know of a company that puts small bezels around their screens?

Panasonic toughbooks / let's note models have bezels as small as you can imagine. For their new B model they even use special hinges so the 15 inch display is that low you can use the notebook on the plane.

[pianowizard]

Do you know of a company that puts small bezels around their screens?

The 17" MacBook Pro has pretty small bezels. Not amazingly thin, but significantly thinner than those of the W700 and W701 Thinkpads.

IMO, for portability, weight is obviously the most important parameter, and footprint size is #2, whereas thinness hardly matters. Minimizing a laptop's footprint means minimizing the display bezel.

[craigmontHunter]

that's one thing I have noticed in the t420 pictures - there seems to be a huge bezel at the bottom - almost like they did not adjust the size of the frame for the smaller (height) screen, and just filled in the extra space with plastic while the T61 has a large bezel, it is narrower than other systems I have had, so I can live with it (the 4:3 computers seemed to have narrower bezels - does anyone know why they had to change the widescreen?)

[ThinkRob]

that's one thing I have noticed in the t420 pictures - there seems to be a huge bezel at the bottom - almost like they did not adjust the size of the frame for the smaller (height) screen, and just filled in the extra space with plastic while the T61 has a large bezel, it is narrower than other systems I have had, so I can live with it (the 4:3 computers seemed to have narrower bezels)

I'm sure they were aware, but I would suspect that the large bezel is due to not wanting to reduce the keyboard footprint or decrease the size of the trackpad.

When 4:3 screens were common, horizontal space was at a premium, hence the reduced-size layouts on the X series (smaller non-alpha keys, reduced key cap size, etc.). With the move to 16:10, the keyboards could be full size (or at least closer to it). With the move to 16:9 though, reducing the bezel to fit the panel might pose a problem for laptop designs that include both a keyboard with full size keys and a spacious trackpad. I'm willing to bet that this is why the bezel on the T420(s) seems so large; Lenovo is trying to keep the large, well-liked trackpad and the keyboard intact, but they're already using almost all of the vertical space that they've got.

does anyone know why they had to change the widescreen?

How many people do you know would pay a several hundred dollar premium for 4:3? How many businesses? That's why.

The fact that the ThinkPad line is (mostly) enterprise laptops is both a blessing and a curse for us. On one hand, we get reliable, well-designed, classy, durable machines with great keyboards. On the other, features that hold little to no appeal for businesses can and will get dropped from the line as soon as they impose too much of a cost burden. In the case of screens, keeping 4:3 would be fairly expensive, and (apparently) Lenovo's business customers simply didn't care... so out it went.

[craigmontHunter]

The point about the horizontal space makes sense, but IIRC the Z61t had a narrow bezel, and it was a widescreen. The T61 just looks like a step back (as does the T420...)

I was not asking about why they changed the aspect ratio, that has been beaten to death more times than I can count, I was just wondering why they changed the size of the bezel.

[ThinkRob]

The point about the horizontal space makes sense, but IIRC the Z61t had a narrow bezel, and it was a widescreen. [...]
I was not asking about why they changed the aspect ratio, that has been beaten to death more times than I can count, I was just wondering why they changed the size of the bezel.

Ah. Perhaps they needed more space in the bottom part of chassis for larger trackpads, more ports, and better cooling?

[dr_st]

Ah. Perhaps they needed more space in the bottom part of chassis for larger trackpads, more ports, and better cooling?

Indeed this is true.

The Z61t and contemporary Thinkpads had a smaller touchpad than recent Thinkpads, so it was possible to make the Z61t shorter, by squeezing every millimeter of space around the keyboard.

However, it caused some other design constraints - they had to move the hard drive to the left, since it would no longer fit next to the optical drive. As a result, all 3 USB ports were on one side (right), and two of them very close together - inconvenient.

With recent Thinkpads (T410), the deeper chassis allows for more ports overall. People like more ports.

The T410 has 4 USB, eSATA, Firewire, and DisplayPort, none of which are cluttered.

The T420, in comparison, is every so slightly wider and every so slightly shorter than T410. And that already caused some constraints on port placement - one of the USB ports is now combined with eSATA.

[Adda]

Having a wider bezel below the display can be a good thing, because it elevates the display higher above the table improving ergonomics.
Widescreen laptops need all the height they can get.

[Colonel O'Neill]

Widescreen laptops need all the height they can get.

Concur wholeheartedly.

[TTY]

Panasonic toughbooks / let's note models have bezels as small as you can imagine.

The last Panasonic Toughbook i looked up, which was the CF-Y5, had the wireless antenna in the notebook's base, next to the keyboard. If a manufacturer puts the wireless antenna in the notebook's base, it's probably easier to make the display bezel thin. I suppose that the reason for Lenovo to put the antennas in the display lid is
- to improve the antennas' transmission characteristics, and
- to place the antennas as far away from the user as possible.
Both seem to be good ideas.

[craigmontHunter]

while the t61 had a wide bezel for the antennas, the T4x (and possibly others) had the antenna in the screen, along with narrower bezels. I think that the comments about the extra depth are the most accurate reason (I never really looked at the space use along the side of my T61 - there is no empty space).

[Colonel O'Neill]

One of the reasons the T61/T400/T500 had the offset screens was to accomodate an antenna on the left side for the purposes of routing signal around the metal lid roll cage. Now that the lid protection no longer relies on metal, it's no longer an issue.

[TTY]

while the t61 had a wide bezel for the antennas, the T4x (and possibly others) had the antenna in the screen, along with narrower bezels.

When comparing new models to older ones, one should keep in mind, that
- models prior to T61 didn't have the WWAN antenna integrated in the bezel. Older models with WWAN had an external, rather large WWAN antenna, and
- 802.11n might require more antennas than 802.11 a, b or g. More antennas need more space, which means wider display lid bezels.

[Adda]

The 450Mbit wireless cards require 3 antennae while those below 300Mbit only needs two.