Buyer's Remorse

[drs]

Thought I'd revisit this now that I've had time to use this computer for a while. Basically, I still am not thrilled. The T410 just feels clunky -- not helped by the fact that typing on it while it is on my lap it sounds hollow. The fan is loud sometimes, and louder the rest of the time. The DVD player rattles and makes so much noise that I can't watch a movie with it. The HDD cover by the left palm rest does not fit properly, and when I put my palm on the computer it squeaks and pops out. And I still don't like the keyboard -- too clicky or something -- not as smooth as the T60. So overall, I just don't like the feel of it and find it to be a big step backward from the older Thinkpads. The one thing I like about it a lot is running multiple XP machines on Windows 7, but that's Windows and not Thinkpad, other than the need for the fast computer.

I took my old T60 to my office where I use it primarily for writing, where its taller screen and better keyboard are useful and where I don't need the speed of the new computer. I also picked up an X61 that came with a 2G processor, 2G of ram, XP, and a docking station, and I use that for traveling, going to coffee shops, sitting on the sofa, etc. and it is really the computer I always wanted, so I'm pretty happy with that. I also use the X61 for music listening as the fan in the t410 is too loud. Thus, the T410 is relegated to times I need something fast, which means Illustrator, Photoshop, CAD, etc. and frankly I could get a faster computer for a lot less money by getting a desktop for these functions.

[Vempele]

The DVD player rattles and makes so much noise that I can't watch a movie with it.

There is (or was in the T60) a BIOS setting for this.

[Colonel O'Neill]

Try reseating the keyboard. Maybe it's not making proper contact with the chassis, hence the hollow sound.

Set the fan to Balance parameters in Power Manager. Then while you're reseating the keyboard, clear out some of the dust inside. Also make sure your BIOS is up to date. If that doesn't work, use TPFanControl and a custom fan profile.

There is indeed a setting for the optical drive in Power Manager under advanced options. I have it set to Silent, and the one time I used my DVD drive to play a movie, the drive itself was about as loud as the hard drive.

[RaysMD]

you are definitely NOT alone. The best thinkpads were the T4x series. They were the thin, under 5lbs, had great battery life, and the keyboard was great. The T6x's are not bad either. It's too bad I sold my T42p and bought the last of the T61p 4:3. Even still, I don't use it much and have left it to my wife.


These new T4xx models are horrible. Too thick and clunky. Guess, where I ended up? MacBook Pro. I've had one since 2007. Now, it's time for another upgrade. Took a look at the T420 and guess what? Just ordered another MBP 15. It's too bad. I always liked the Thinkpad. The Macbook Pro does have it's disadvantages. The reason I'm getting another one is because I happen to damage mine by being a little careless. I don't think I could say that about the Thinkpad though. They can take a beating and keep on going.

Hope you can find something you like.

[ZaZ]

The best thinkpads were the T4x series. They were the thin, under 5lbs, had great battery life, and the keyboard was great.

They also had a serious flaw with the rigidity and the GPU. I'd take a little more thickness if it hold up better.

[sir_synthsalot]

There is (or was in the T60) a BIOS setting for this.

You can change the speed between Silent, Normal, and Fast on most Thinkpads which slows down the drive so it makes less noise. I find that DVD drives in general seem noisier nowadays than a few years ago. I recently picked one up a new one for my desktop and it makes noises similar to a floppy drive when reading disks. My old drives never did this. It's become a cheap and disposable component.

[PIP33]

I just ordered a T410 after reading a lot of great reviews online. I guess I will just have to wait and see what I get.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums

[PIP33]

Is it true that the T410 does NOT have the protective rollcage of its predecessors? I recently read that somewhere but don't know if it's true.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums

[ThinkRob]

Is it true that the T410 does NOT have the protective rollcage of its predecessors? I recently read that somewhere but don't know if it's true.

Half true. It doesn't have the magnesium skeleton in the lid that the T400 had, but it does have the same sort of endoskeleton in the base.

[PIP33]

Half true. It doesn't have the magnesium skeleton in the lid that the T400 had, but it does have the same sort of endoskeleton in the base.

Yeah, I ended up "googling" the info. Had I known that (my fault) before ordering, I don't know if I would have. Lenovo is just messing with too much, IMHO. All of the things that have made Thinkpads great seem to be getting omitted with each iteration.

-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums

[dr_st]

Yeah, I ended up "googling" the info. Had I known that (my fault) before ordering, I don't know if I would have. Lenovo is just messing with too much, IMHO. All of the things that have made Thinkpads great seem to be getting omitted with each iteration.

Well, you have to give Lenovo some credit for introducing the roll cages in the first place. I guess they just concluded that the one in the lid is not as important for durability as the one in the base, although I haven't seen any published research on the matter.

[ThinkRob]

Yeah, I ended up "googling" the info. Had I known that (my fault) before ordering, I don't know if I would have. Lenovo is just messing with too much, IMHO. All of the things that have made Thinkpads great seem to be getting omitted with each iteration.

I wouldn't let that worry you:

1) Lenovo actually introduced the "rollcage" in the first place. I wouldn't really say it's one of the things that made the ThinkPad great.

2) Lid roll-cages made a lot more sense when LCDs had CCFL backlights, as the CCFL tubes were fragile and prone to cracking. LED backlights eliminate that problem, thus the screen requires less protection.

3) It's worth noting that a number of previous ThinkPads had plastic lids as well.

4) The T410's lid is actually pretty resilient. I've had a T410 for several months now, and in addition to being my primary work machine it's been on a number of trips with me (plus day-to-day travel). It's held up exceptionally well, and the screen is in great condition. Definitely as durable in practice as the T4x series, and certainly moreso than many of the X series.

5) Yes, it's possible that very strong pressure concentrated on a specific spot could cause damage to the LCD. That's also pretty darn rare, and isn't the sort of thing that the "roll cage" would protect against anyways. If you a machine that can survive heavy impact concentrated on a small area (such as, say, blows from a hammer) you should probably be looking at ToughBooks instead.

6) Less metal near the wireless antennae means less signal attenuation. This is good.

Executive summary: Lenovo introduced the lid roll cage because CCFL backlights required it. The move to LED backlights means that HEPC or CFRP can protect the screen well enough for typical business use, and the move from magnesium lid casings improves wireless performance.

[dr_st]

An interesting thought about the lid roll cages... I've seen a number of Thinkpads (T42, T60, X32) which after ~1.5-3 years develop subtle wear spots in the screen (which look like a hole in the panel with the backlight peering through, interestingly observable almost exclusively on light backgrounds). I haven't seen any of these on the rollcage-equipped Thinkpads, but then again I haven't owned any.

Question is whether this syndrome can in principle be alleviated by the lid roll cage. It obviously is a wear of the panel itself, so it has nothing to do with the backlight bulb type. However, someone on this forum suggested once that these spots are not due to pressure, but due to long-term panel wear caused by it moving a little inside its enclosure (in which case a lid cage would make no difference).

Anyone knows what I'm talking about? Anyone seen these on the lid rollcage models (e.g., T/R61/400, T/W500)?

[Amika]

I agree that other brands have improved quite a lot from the users perspective.
HP's are decent machines, but their keyboard and trackpoints are not as good a on ThinkPads.
Dell's are nice as well, the new models even seem to mimic the ThinkPad look, but unless they have improved the keyboard but especially the touchpad and trackpoint, they are barely usable without a dedicated mouse.

But when you take HP's and Dell's apart it becomes obvious that they are not nearly as thoroughly designed as ThinkPads are.
I'm only talking about business models of cause.

MacBook's are not business machines so I leave them out, they have not been made to be used, but to impress.

comment about HP = $100
comment about dell = $ 200
comment about HP and dell = $ 400
comment about Macbook = priceless.. hahahaha

[Colonel O'Neill]

Heh. What ThinkRob said.

Different approaches to different problems.

[ThinkRob]

An interesting thought about the lid roll cages... I've seen a number of Thinkpads (T42, T60, X32) which after ~1.5-3 years develop subtle wear spots in the screen (which look like a hole in the panel with the backlight peering through, interestingly observable almost exclusively on light backgrounds). I haven't seen any of these on the rollcage-equipped Thinkpads, but then again I haven't owned any.
[...]
Anyone knows what I'm talking about? Anyone seen these on the lid rollcage models (e.g., T/R61/400, T/W500)?

I have indeed seen these wear marks, and while I've never owned a "roll cage"-equipped machine which had them, I have seen a few T61s, R400s, and T400s which did -- but it certainly seems to be far less common with those models than the X40 series. I suspect that the "roll cage" helps to prevent this, but it clearly isn't a complete solution.

[PIP33]

I wouldn't let that worry you:

1) Lenovo actually introduced the "rollcage" in the first place. I wouldn't really say it's one of the things that made the ThinkPad great.

2) Lid roll-cages made a lot more sense when LCDs had CCFL backlights, as the CCFL tubes were fragile and prone to cracking. LED backlights eliminate that problem, thus the screen requires less protection.

3) It's worth noting that a number of previous ThinkPads had plastic lids as well.

4) The T410's lid is actually pretty resilient. I've had a T410 for several months now, and in addition to being my primary work machine it's been on a number of trips with me (plus day-to-day travel). It's held up exceptionally well, and the screen is in great condition. Definitely as durable in practice as the T4x series, and certainly moreso than many of the X series.

5) Yes, it's possible that very strong pressure concentrated on a specific spot could cause damage to the LCD. That's also pretty darn rare, and isn't the sort of thing that the "roll cage" would protect against anyways. If you a machine that can survive heavy impact concentrated on a small area (such as, say, blows from a hammer) you should probably be looking at ToughBooks instead.

6) Less metal near the wireless antennae means less signal attenuation. This is good.

Executive summary: Lenovo introduced the lid roll cage because CCFL backlights required it. The move to LED backlights means that HEPC or CFRP can protect the screen well enough for typical business use, and the move from magnesium lid casings improves wireless performance.

I hear you. My new machine arrives today, and I'm still pretty excited. I'll finally get a chance to have it up close and test the heck out if.