Help with T520 configuration (esp. SSD) – may help many

[hman]

I’m a long-time owner of a Thinkpad T42p which still works very well after 6 years of daily business use. After considering options carefully, I’m planning to upgrade to a T520.

I’ve read this forum extensively, and it’s helped a lot (thanks!) to determine most of the configuration that’s best for the use (business – office suite, some MATLAB, heavy Outlook use, usual web access – mostly the “publication” end of science work. Heftier calculations would be left to servers.

Note that I build my own PCs for home, but for the business laptop, I’m looking for a bit more simplicity, and high reliability. Reliability is key!

Here are my remaining questions. Can you please help to answer these?

Q1: I can’t decide on the HDD vs. SSD setup. Everything I’ve read, including the StorageReview review of the T520 (very nice), and the “self install T420 mSata drive” thread (also nice) leave me with questions.

So, here’s my first question. The T520 review raves about the mSATA 80Gb option for the boot drive and programs. This sounds like a good approach to me. BUT – the review also talks about SATA 6Gb/s being the ultimate in speed now. Is the mSATA 80GB option going to give this high bandwidth? If you don’t need 500GB of disk space, why not simply get a 128-256 GB SSD to replace the HDD, and have the highest SSD speed possible? Is this a cost consideration alone?

Q2: Up to now, everything I’ve read says to get the mSATA 80GB for OS and programs, and use the HDD for data. Assuming that is the best way, how is this best installed? The “self install T420 mSata drive” thread doesn’t really come to a conclusion.

Here’s my plan – is it flawed?

(i) Buy laptop with the lowest 7200 rpm drive (320GB) factory installed (note: as I’m thinking about replacing this eventually with an SSD, I don’t want to buy yet another HDD from 3rd party – this is why I’d go with the factory installed drive, but 7200 for higher speed.)

(ii) Partition the drive in two parts C: for system stuff and programs, E: for data

(iii) Install programs, and get OS setup as I like, etc.

(iv) Buy Intel 80GB mSATA SSD, and clone the C: drive and other system partitions (swap area, space for R&R) to this drive (Note that I have 39 GB for present OS and programs on present T42p system)

(v) Boot off of the SSD, and either erase the old C: area on the HHD, or hide that partition and keep it as a “backup” in case the SSD fails (reliability is key!). Data would remain on the 320 GB HDD. (Note: At present, I have 46 GB data, and so having 320 GB minus about 60GB for the OS clone still leaves me with plenty for data expansion.

(vi) Eventually replace the HDD with another SSD when prices come down.

Q3: I’m thinking that it would be nice to go all SDD right away (less power drain, faster speed, higher reliability, quieter operation big plusses!). Since I don’t need a ton of space for data, does it just make sense to just buy a single 256GB SSD now? I figure that if I go this path, and bought a Crucial 256GB SSD, it would cost $200 extra than if I go the mSATA SSD + HDD route. That’s not prohibitive. But, is it smart? Are the SSD of lower reliability after daily business use? Does TRIM solve all the problems of reduced speed over time?

It seems the simplest – set up everything on the HDD (even a stock 250 GB, 5400 rpm drive), then clone to a SATA 6Gb/s SDD once everything is set up.

I’m worried that I’m missing something. Are there issues with having the OS + programs on the same SSD? Can I still partition the drive as C: for OS and programs, E: for data?

This also leaves the slot in the computer open that the mSATA drive would occupy that might be used later.

(vii) What about going for the mSATA 80GB drive + either 128 GB or 256 GB SSD drive? Is this unnecessary, and slower than having a 256 GB SSD drive alone?

Sorry for asking so many questions with so much detail – but you guys are clearly pros and know all of the latest and best options, so please help out. I expect that the answers will help a lot of others as well.

Thanks much in advance!

Hman

FYI – present configuration is given below – expect to purchase very soon (in a couple of days), so RSVP at your earliest convenience.

p.s. Any other comments on the configuration below would be greatly appreciated.

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Lenovo Thinkpad T520
System components
Intel Core i5-2540M Processor (2.60GHz, 3MB L3)
Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64
15.6" FHD (1920 x 1080) LED Backlit Anti-Glare Display, Mobile Broadband Ready
NVIDIA NVS 4200M Graphics with Optimus Technology, 1GB DDR3 Memory
4 GB PC3-10600 DDR3 SDRAM 1333MHz SODIMM Memory (1 DIMM)
UltraNav with TrackPoint & touchpad plus Fingerprint reader
720p Camera
320 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm
DVD recordable multiburner
Express Card Slot & 4 in 1 Card Reader
6 cell Li-Ion Battery - 55+
Country Pack North America with Line cord & 90W AC adapter
Bluetooth 3.0
Intel Centrino Ultimate-N 6300 (3x3 AGN)
Integrated Mobile Broadband - Upgradable
Accessories
ThinkPad Battery 27++ (9 Cell Slice Battery - T410/420, T510/520, W510/520)
ThinkPad Mini Dock Plus Series 3 (US/Canada/LA)


Then add:
- 4GB RAM
- (possible) mSATA 80GB boot drive (for system and programs)
- and (possible) 128GB SSD – for data
- or (possible) 256GB SSG – as sole storage drive (for OS, programs, data)

[AMATX]

Well, I got lost about a third of the way into your voluminous question , so will just offer up a scenario I prefer...and, worth every penny you're paying for it, too

* Get a conventional SSD, skip the mSata. Too gimmicky for my taste.

* Order SSD from Lenovo, so the laptop is configured right out of the box. Much easier than messing with ordering a cheap drive and cloning to an add-in SSD. Get whatever's cheap or smaller, if Lenovo offers multiple sizes(at least 64G or 128G, though, so you'll have plenty of room for a system drive).

* Snag a large, conventional HD, say 500G-1T and run it in an ultrabay slot, if that's an option on the particular model. Will require ordering an ultrabay hard drive caddy, which you can get through Lenovo or elsewhere. Buy this drive wherever you can get the best deal.

* General strategy for many folks these days is to have an SSD for a boot/system drive, so the response is FAST, and a large data drive for archival and video stuff.

* Once you try SSD, you'll never go back...

* On the SSD system drive, I prefer to add/allocate a D: partition, on which I put the pagefile, and an E: partition for utilities, some software, and misc. stuff. NOT a data drive, though. This approach is partly a holdover from the very early days of the PC biz, but has worked for me. Speed-wise, this approach won't matter one way or the other, as w/SSD, accessing data is the same anywhere on the drive.

* Buy as much memory as you can afford. If you're gonna max it out -later-, then buy a smaller number of higher capacity individual sticks -now-, so you're not throwing away lower capacity sticks when you upgrade. For example, buy one 4G stick now, add another 4G later, and you'll not have to pull any sticks out to make room for the add-ons.

I value convenience over trying to skimp the last few bucks. Plus, if upgrading or migrating drives is new to you, plan on spending three times whatever amount of time you -think- it'll take. So, time=money...how much TIME do YOU have? It gets really old cloning the drive the third time cuz you can't figure out why it hasn't yet worked, etc. Plus, by time you buy a cheap HD, buy an after market SSD, you may not save a huge amount of money. And, btw, if you don't already know if you need 6meg speed out of the latest/greatest sata stuff, then you probably don't...

If you're stretched money-wise, I've found it better to wait a bit and buy the bestest,easiest thing for me, vs. 'gotta have it now'/instant gratification.

Your money, your decision.

[hman]

Thanks much Atmax. Sorry for putting so much detail in the question. Hopefully, you and others will reply further.

It's clear, and from what you say, that most people go with SSD + HDD.

But what if I don't need a very large HDD for what I'm doing. Would you/others suggest just one drive - the SSD
drive, and put the data there as well? Or, will having data on the SSD drive degrade it in time? (sorry if that sounds newbie).

If you suggest just one drive - the SSD drive for everything, then it seems to me buying the stock HDD, buying
SSD third party, and cloning/installing the SSD as the sole drive is the way to go (for the higher capacity/cost of the 3rd party drive and 6Gb/s SATA) . I do understand what you are saying about cloning and that taking time - I've been there.

At the moment, I have ~ 100 GB for everything on my present system. If I buy a 256GB SSD, I should have enough space with good enough room to spare.

I guess what I'm worried about here is possible repartioning a single SSD later in time. I would want to separate my OS partition from the data partition. But what if a need to change partition sizes later on? I used to do this on HDDs if needed, with PartitionMagic (rare - but it happened). But is this advisable with SSDs? Perhaps the latest version of PartitionMagic (or equivalent) can optimize for doing this on SSDs?

The beauty with all this is that I can simply order the machine with the HDD of my choice, and just buy/clone to SSD as I like. But since this stuff takes a while, it's best to do it once, and take the best approach. So, I need your help, gurus!

Finally - I wouldn't just write off the mSATA, or importance or 6Gb/s SATA. I want to know more about them. The StorageReview T520 review was pretty clear about each. But, I'm not sure if the mSata option will be slower than the 6 Gb/s "main" SSD option, or if it makes any sense to have an mSATA drive if I'm going with an SSD drive as the main drive.

Clearly, I need advice. Please reply people. At the moment, I have a 320GB 7200 rpm HDD in the "stock" Lenovo configuration, and I'd like to close this out and order it very soon.

Hman

[blackomegax]

Current msata drives barely saturate the SATA 3.0gb bus they use. 6.0 would be a waste until better tech comes along.

[hman]

Thx blackomegax

So, would you then say that mSATA is just not the way to go? Would you say - for someone
who needs ~ 200GB HD space, that a single 256 GB SSD is the way to go (no HDD, just one SSD)?

With all the talk about people going the SSD + HDD route, I suspect they use the HDD because
they need a lot more storage. But am I missing something? Instead, do people use the the SSD + HDD
combo because SSD's aren't so great handling a lot of re-writing of data, or are less reliable that way?

Replies appreciated.

[craigmontHunter]

there are theoretical limits on the number of writes a ssd has, the biggest reasons to have a second harde drive is that A) spinning disks are cheap, with a low cost per gb, and B) if anything happens to the os, all of your data is safe on the other drive. If you need lots of data with you all the time, I would reccomend the msata drive - ssds are still wicked fast, and you have a hard drive for your data.

In terms of the ssd running at 3.0gb/s, that is wicked fast (it scores 7.7 in WEI), has great performance for small writes (where it does not matter much either way), and the 6gb/s drive in the main bay will more than make up if you have large files to work with (along with being cheaper)

[hman]

Hi craigmontHunter, (and others)

Thanks much for the reply. So, do you see major flaws in this plan?

1) Have stock system set up by Lenovo on 320GB 7200rpm HDD
2) Create separate system and data partitions on the HDD (with PartitionMagic)
3) Add programs, etc. - set the system up as desired
4) install mSATA drive
5) Clone the system partition to the mSATA drive (this is the step I'm not sure about)
- can this be done? I believe someone did this using Acronis software (I need to
read the "self-install mSATA drive" thread again...)
6) Either erase, or simply hide the system partition that's on the HDD. Hiding it would
keep it in reserve in case the mSATA dies for some reason.

RSVP, and thanks.

[blackomegax]

from what ive read about how thinkpads are handling msata drives, you're better off taking the HDD out, installing the mSATA, clean installing win7, then adding the HDD and mounting it as D, and just use it for storage and bigger software installs.

[Dude]

Hman, thanks for putting this topic up. I am looking at a very similar situation with the T520. I may even need to put up a couple of set up Threads myself.

[amardeep]

Simplest scenario would be to get it with a 128Gb SSD direct from Lenovo, no messing with mSata, cloning drives etc. Your data and OS would fit on this at present with a little bit of room to spare, and it's not too expensive. I wouldn't worry about 6Gb/s, the "normal" SSD will feel pretty fast (I'm assuming you don't have any burning need to absolutely max-out I/O from the drive).

If you run out of space you can add a regular HDD in the bay (though this obviously means no DVD drive whilst using the bay for the HDD). Or if it happens in a few years time, treat yourself to a new 6Gb/s large capcity SSD to replace the original (taking advantage of then reduced costs / increased capacity).

I guess only you know whether you data is likely to grow, and how quickly, and how much the simplicity of just having to do nothing is worth to you (I'm lazy and wouldn't bother with all the faffing around with cloning drives etc !).

None of this actually answers your questions, instead it just presents another route to follow

To give you an idea of disk space usage, I have a 128Gb drive with Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, and Windows shows 70Gb free of 108Gb on C: and there is also a 10Gb Lenovo recovery partition which could be deleted and used for user data since I have made the recovery CD's using the Lenovo tool. Currently installed apps are : various small apps, Eclipse, Java SDK, Picasa, Open Office, Gimp, iTunes. My user account is 4Gb big at the moment.

[AMATX]

Simplest scenario would be to get it with a 128Gb SSD direct from Lenovo, no messing with mSata, cloning drives etc. Your data and OS would fit on this at present with a little bit of room to spare, and it's not too expensive. I wouldn't worry about 6Gb/s, the "normal" SSD will feel pretty fast (I'm assuming you don't have any burning need to absolutely max-out I/O from the drive).

If you run out of space you can add a regular HDD in the bay (though this obviously means no DVD drive whilst using the bay for the HDD). Or if it happens in a few years time, treat yourself to a new 6Gb/s large capcity SSD to replace the original (taking advantage of then reduced costs / increased capacity).

I guess only you know whether you data is likely to grow, and how quickly, and how much the simplicity of just having to do nothing is worth to you (I'm lazy and wouldn't bother with all the faffing around with cloning drives etc !).

None of this actually answers your questions, instead it just presents another route to follow

To give you an idea of disk space usage, I have a 128Gb drive with Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, and Windows shows 70Gb free of 108Gb on C: and there is also a 10Gb Lenovo recovery partition which could be deleted and used for user data since I have made the recovery CD's using the Lenovo tool. Currently installed apps are : various small apps, Eclipse, Java SDK, Picasa, Open Office, Gimp, iTunes. My user account is 4Gb big at the moment.

BINGO, we have a winner

Simple, fast, relatively affordable. NOT the absolute cheapest; but, otoh, you won't be up late three nights in a row trying to figure out why sumpin' ain't working. AND, if it doesn't work right out of the box, either have Lenovo fix it(for you) or return it and get another.

Time = money...

[Dude]

Could not agree more. There is a difference between being an Enthusiast and a Hobbyist with PC's. The Hobbyist aka Hack is a whole different bread of cat, and we owe them a lot of gratitude for all their heavy lifting on really technical solutions. But as Dirty Harry would say, "a man has to know his limitations, inspector"

[amardeep]

By the way, it seems the mSATA drives are not as fast as the regular SSD's :

[...] whether our latest generation of ThinkPad notebooks supports SATA 600 MB/s speed. The short answer is yes. [...] Your Ultrabay will also run at SATA 600 speeds if you choose to put a SATA 600 capable drive inside. If you buy one of our ThinkPads with a mSATA drive, note that this drive is connected via the Mini PCIe bus inside your notebook. Though the drive electrically is a SATA drive, it does not communicate at SATA 600 speeds. However, today’s mSATA drives are not designed to have the highest performance specifications like traditional SSD drives. This allows internal mSATA drives to be available as lower cost options. (You’ll still see significant speed improvements over a spinning hard disk drive though.)[...]

http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox ... notebooks/

[hman]

Thanks to all for replies. Two camps it seems:

1) Just order the SSD right from Lenovo as sole drive
2) Buy HDD + mSATA SSD

I am an "enthusiast" for my home computers - I've built all myself for years. But, for a work
computer like this, I do want to minimize making changes - to some degree.

That said, I find it tough to just order the SDD from Lenovo. Buying a Crucial 256 Gb SSD seems like
the much better path, especially as Lenovo only offers a 160 GB SDD, and it's pricey.

I'm leaning toward the single SDD - I like that solution as it completely eliminates the HDD.
Maybe that's a "compromise" position of the people that have posted?

That said - I'm still concerned about constant writes/re-writes of data to an SSD. I think I'll be doing
a decent amount of that - probably not excessively more than normal, but still considerable. I'm concerned
about the life of the SSD under those conditions. (should I be???)

I would partition the drive as I typically do - system partition and data partition. Then, there would be
the swap file area (in the system partition), and the R&R area. This is convenient, as the data resides on a separate partition.

I would set that upon the HDD, buy a 256 GB SSD, clone the entire HDD to it, use the HDD as an external drive..

So,

QUESTION: Is there an issue with putting data on the SSD in this way, OR should the data be put on an
HDD, given the present state of SDD technology? Very sorry of that's a newbie question (I am an SSD newbie),
but the answer will probably make the decision for me.

If I do stick with the HDD, I would rather install the mSATA as mentioned above, rather than give up the Ultrabay
to the HDD.

RSVP! and thanks in advance.

[own6volvos]

In regards to what drive to use, it really depends on your daily usage looks like. Personally when I end up deciding on a notebook (tossup between the T520 and W520) it will most likely use the mSATA drive for the boot drive. My plan is entirely based on having a selection of any drive I want to use for X amount of time out of our stash of drives in the office.

Now if you are shopping on price/performance alone and don't plan on speccing out the primary bay for a second drive (ultrabay is still doable) then getting a full-size SSD might be your best option. Higher capacities, more options, and potentially faster speeds. If you just surf the web and use MS Outlook would you notice the difference between a mSATA and the Vertex 3? Probably not. If you are an avid gamer, having double the read speeds and significantly increased write speeds would make a noticeable difference.

[hman]

own6volvoes (and others),

With 256GB enough disk space for the moment, the single SSD seems like a good solution, with
system / data partitions made for clarity. Seems good to order with an HDD, and clone or reinstall
on SDD.

Noticing the difference between HDD and SSD I figure would be boot up, coming out of hibernate,
launching applications, etc. Is there any issue with hibernating often - "wearing out" the SSD? I guess
I don't appreciate the reliability of SSDs yet - some reports say they are much more reliable than HDDs,
which is what I would expect.