Thinkvantage toolbox says my T-22 RAM can max at 1 GB

[nrsmith100]

Hi Everyone,

I just upgraded my Thinkvantage toolbox to the latest version. I looked at the information on my memory and it states that the maximum RAM is capable of 1GB. I just wanted to get some opinions, is the Thinkvantage toolbox wrong, or do I have some specially modified t-22?


Running XP Pro SP3, 512 RAM

Thanks!

Nate

[Neil]

As far as I know, there are no 512MB PC100 modules. But, some low density PC133 might work in a T22, and if they do then 1GB would be possible, if the chipset will allow it. The maximum RAM for a T22 is shown as "unknown" over at Thinkwiki...

[rkawakami]

The Intel 440BX chipset in the T22 is able to address up to 1GB of memory space but it requires registered DIMMs and I believe four memory slots. Since there's only two memory slots available in the T22 and it uses standard SDRAM, it's limited to 512MB. The largest (known to me) PC100/PC133 "low density", standard height, module is 256MB. A 512MB low density module would have to have 32 individual 16MB memory chips on them, assuming there's even enough control signals to arrange them in other banks. There were some Apple "double height" modules used in some of their systems which might be able to hold 512MB but I doubt you'd be able to shove them into the Thinkpad.

ref: http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/da ... 290633.htm (Page 4-2 for memory map)

[RealBlackStuff]

Maybe your T22 has a T23 motherboard?
How many USB ports does it have? (Only the T23 has two USB ports, the other T2x have only one).

[ozzymud]

There were some Apple "double height" modules used in some of their systems which might be able to hold 512MB but I doubt you'd be able to shove them into the Thinkpad.

Are these the apple double height ones you speak of? http://www.majormemory.com/apl144x512-5 ... -1gag.html

Obviously there is no room for those in a T2x, but I count 16 chips... are these low density?

If so, then aren't these: http://cgi.ebay.com/INFINEON-512MB-SDRA ... 43a8704ee1

he advertises:
Memory Size: 512MB
Memory Technology: SDRAM
Number of Modules: 1
Memory Speed: 133 MHz
Memory Standard: PC-133
Memory Composition: 32X8
Platform Support: laptop/PC
Form Factor: 144-Pins
Non-ECC: Yes
Unbuffered: Yes
ECC Reg: No
Low Density: Yes
Chips on both sides: Yes
Chips per side: 8
Total number of chips: 16


Man, I really need to learn all these XXxXX composition numbers

[rkawakami]

My presumption is that the MajorMemory module is high density. In order to be low density at the 512MB size, you'd need 32 chips (16MB x 32 = 512MB).

Despite what the eBay auction says about that Infineon module being "low density", I don't buy. To me the definition of "low density" is a module that uses 16MB chips. The reason being is that when the industry transitioned to 32MB chips, one of the more important specifications that changed had to do with "refresh". A 16MB memory requires 4096 (aka, 4K) refresh cycles in a specific amount of time (64ms). 32MB memory requires 8192 (aka, 8K) refresh cycles in the same amount of time. These refresh cycles are necessary for dynamic RAM (DRAM, SDRAM, DDR, etc.) to properly retain data. Putting a memory that requires 8K refresh cycles (i.e., high density) into a system that only generates 4K refresh cycles is asking for trouble. That's why there's a special memory on each module that is programmed to tell the computer it's inserted into what it (the module) is capable of doing. The memory size, the proper timing it requires and in this case, the number of refresh cycles it needs.

I read the "Memory Composition" numbers from the eBay seller's description as "32Meg addresses x 8 bits", or a 32MB part. Therefore, "high density". Many people mistakenly assume that when we are talking about "density", it has to do with the number of chips on the board. That's somewhat true but not in the way they think. They assume that 8 chips is "lower" than 16 chips. That's incorrect. Density, in this case, is referring to the number of bits of memory in each individual chip. A 16MB chip has a lower density (of bits) than a 32MB chip.

A 512MB module built with 16MB chips (low density) requires 32 chips (16MB x 32=512MB). The same 512MB module constructed with 32MB chips (high density) only needs 16 chips (32MB x 16=512MB). Similarly, low density 256MB modules need 16 chips (16MB x 16), while a high density 256MB module requires just 8 (32MB x 8 ).

[Neil]

I keep having thoughts come to mind about some discussion here a few years ago about Crucial having some PC133 modules that would work in these older ThinkPads that require PC100 Low Density modules...but that discussion was only about 256MB modules, wasn't it?

[rkawakami]

There are PC133 low density modules from several manufacturers, so yes, a 256MB PC133 module can work in the T22 and earlier T2x systems. It just needs to have 16 chips on the board.

[Thinkpad Lover]

I have this reference chart bookmarked. I don't know anything about the background of the author, but I've always found it accurate. Shows 512mb for T22. If Thinkvantage Toolbox shows 1GB max ram there's a good possibility, as suggested above, that someone put a T22 KB logo onto a T23, which is very easy to do:

http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/thinkpadspecs.html

Daniel.

[rkawakami]

I can only assume that the OP is talking about his T22 from five years ago: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=24627

If so, then since it appears that the system had a problem with high density memory, it's a T22.

@Thinkpad Lover: Well, there's some errors in that table. 600X is listed as having a maximum of 288MB. It's 576MB (64MB base, 2 256MB low density modules). 600E can take 544MB (32MB base, 2 256MB). The A31p I'm typing on right now has 2GB, not the 1GB in the table. Those figures are based upon the, then current, published maximums using the largest available memories at that time. Time marches on and now there's bigger memories and therefore in some case, higher maximums.

[Thinkpad Lover]

@Thinkpad Lover: Well, there's some errors in that table. 600X is listed as having a maximum of 288MB. It's 576MB (64MB base, 2 256MB low density modules). 600E can take 544MB (32MB base, 2 256MB). The A31p I'm typing on right now has 2GB, not the 1GB in the table. Those figures are based upon the, then current, published maximums using the largest available memories at that time. Time marches on and now there's bigger memories and therefore in some case, higher maximums.

Excellent. Thank you Ray for pointing out those discrepancies and pointing out the reason. I haven't double-checked everything on that chart, just keep it handy as an "unofficial" guide. I like the way it's organized. The 600E and 600X I've personally worked on so those figures are off as you said. I know those are distinguished from the 600 and able to take 2x256. They also use PC 100, 100mhz not PC100, 66mhz speed as the 600 does. The A31p I have no experience with. I'm sure there might be some other discrepancies on that chart. I see how maximum memories could even "change" as memory manufacturing techniques evolve. That's actually nice because some of these older laptop models might be able to hold more memory than previously thought.

Glad to point you and some of the other experts on this forum to that chart. I'm not an expert, just play around with laptops a little If anyone notices any other errors please point them out. Someone should also email the author of that chart. If we had a chart like this, with those corrections, and all the latest Thinkpad models listed (he stops at A31p R40 G40 T42P X30), I think it would be a useful resource for the Thinkpad community.

Daniel,
the little YP/teacher in NYC (who plays around with laptops on the side)

[Thinkpad Lover]

P.S. There seems to be a lot of confusion on the web about the 600e and its maximum- and it has to do with everyone assuming that you can always swap PC133 in place of PC100 and high density versus low-density:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30931 ... rade-issue

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/27310 ... ry-upgrade

The 600x everyone knows can take 2x256+ 64 built-in=576 . However, many sites have not yet updated their stats about the 600e- they still think 2x128+ 32 built-in=288mb is the maximum, even sites selling memory. (You would think they would know their own business better). But according to IBM itself: http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... E4RG3.html

(Seems they announced this since 10/25/99), the following models should all be able to take PC100 256mb low-density modules. Here's their official list from that link above:

The 256MB 100MHz NP SDRAM SoDIMM is supported on the following IBM systems:
Name Machine Type Model
ThinkPad 390X 2626, 2624 PC 100-compatible
ThinkPad 600E 2645 3Ax, 5Ax, 5Bx, 4Ax, 8Ax, AAx, 4Bx, 8Bx, BAx models only
Requires BIOS version inet26ww or later PC 100-compatible
ThinkPad 600X 2645, 2646 PC 100-compatible
ThinkPad A series 2628, 2629, 2633 All
ThinkPad T series 2647, 2648, 2649 All
ThinkPad X series 2660, 2661, 2662 All

(BTW, are they saying there are certain 600E machine type/models that cannot take 256mb PC100 modules and would remain limited to 288mb? Is that what they're saying about the 390X also?)

Know what this means? It means I just found another error on the chart I referenced above: http://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/thinkpadspecs.html It seems that chart needs a lot of updating. If anyone has a 390x type 2626 or 2624 looks like it can take 512mb (2x256 low density PC100) not just 256mb as listed on that chart. I suspect there are quite a few other errors on this chart since it does not take into account 256mb PC100 low density modules Can someone do some further research and put together a complete, simplified, accurate, up to date table with maximum RAM specs for these older laptops? Please distinguish between PC100 at 100mhz and PC100 at 66mhz, between PC100 and PC133, and low density versus high density. This would be of great benefit for those of us who sell (and sometimes donate) a few of these so we can know how to max out the RAM without experimenting or Googling all day. Would also be great for someone who owns one of these older laptops

Daniel,
the little YP in NYC.
"We had pizza in the Lion's Den "

[nrsmith100]

Thanks for the great info. My t-22 currently does have two Crucial memory chips - 256mb each. I assume they are 133mhz, I installed these about 5 years ago. I only have 1 USB port, I guess it is possible that it has been mislabeled since the laptop was originally donated to me by a large aerospace company when I was a Peace Corps Volunteer. I know that they custom ordered it because it literally has every possible bell and whistle you can fit into it, maybe the motherboard is a t-23. Only two RAM sockets, maybe the board can support more but with only two slots it is limited? I might just take a chance at finding some RAM chips to experiment with.

Thanks!

[rkawakami]

On the T2x series, one USB port = T20, T21 or T22. The T23 motherboard has two USB ports and would not fit in a T20-T22 base. Also there's the matter of the ethernet daughter card on the T23 motherboard. Located just "below" (towards the front edge of the laptop) the MiniPCI card slot, it doesn't exist on the earlier T20-T22 boards. Instead, if the T22 does have built-in ethernet capability, then it's coming from a combo ethernet/modem MiniPCI card. The memory modules indeed can be PC133 but they will "slow down" and operate at the PC100 timing that the motherboard generates. There's only room for two memory sockets on any of the T2x motherboards so that's it in the way of memory expansion.