Thinkpadders, do NOT Rejoice, WEEP and/or DESPAIR!

[jcvjcvjcvjcv]

I would love to see a nice 4:3 ThinkPad but people need to realize that it's not happening. Unless a TINY iPad-sized display is used, there isn't a viable 4:3 display at the correct size. It can cost millions to invest in new panel R&D and manufacture; without many, many guaranteed orders it makes no sense for an LCD manufacturer to begin production of a new model. For the most part, they make what they can sell.

Pfff, the nonsense. There is huge a mount of different screens out there. A lot of tablets with screens you don't see anywhere else. The X220 can be modded with a FHD panel from a Dell, etc. etc. etc. The only reason it wouldn't happen if Lenovo decides against it; it's that simple. There also isn't any R&D whatsoever. All they need to do is to apply current LCD technology to a aspect ratio that they are barely making now.

Apple (that what Lenovo tries to clone all the time, to our great sadness) has multiple MBP screens that aren't used anywhere else.

16:10 and 3:2 are our best options going forwards, at least for a first version of a laptop like this. Asking for 4:3 might give off an impression like, "They really want 4:3 displays, and we can't do that; is the project worth it if we can't fulfill people's wants?"

They can do that, and the only reason they wouldn't is because they wouldn't want to.

I hope the survey can help narrow down this sort of thing, but some people are making ABSURD requests in the comments. A "5-core AMD processor with liquid cooling"? Dual Ethernet, on a laptop? AMD graphics? Fanless CPU setups? An LCD in the touchpad!? What are people smoking? Do they want to diverge the project to death? If Lenovo can't get a somewhat clear vision of what people want, it will discourage this sort of project!

They just took a huge dump on their most hard-care fanbase over the past three years with the stupid 6-row keyboard, the endless 16:9 stuff, the missing IPS options, the low-resolution, etc. stuff they put out. The missing shortcuts on newer keyboards, etc. etc. All those stupid changes were because Lenovo "figured out" what "people" want.

You can see Lenovo's attitude problem in David Hill's blogpost;

[quote="David Hill] As with all change, there are people who welcome it and others who are most comfortable without it. It’s unlikely that anyone would want a ThinkPad today that matches the 700c’s original thickness of 56mm, but some loyalists miss the 7 row keyboard. ThinkPad design, however, must continue to evolve to attract new customers and align with shifting market dynamics. With design, it’s nearly impossible to please everyone. Or is there a way?[/quote]

It has nothing to do with "change", but with general crappyfication of everything. The would-be Apple buyer isn't buying a ThinkPad just because you copied Apple's crappy keyboard. More likely, the Thinkpad buyer will just buy an Apple, because if the keyboard is going to be useless, at least the screen will be good.

Imagine a blue enter key, 7 row classic keyboard, 16:10 aspect ratio screen, multi-color ThinkPad logo, dedicated volume controls, rubberized paint, exposed screws, lots of status LED’s, and more.

In large part that's exactly like EVERY Thinkpad before 2012

Although not for everyone, I’m certain there’s a group of people who would stand in line to purchase such a special ThinkPad model.

Yeah, because Lenovo can't keep up with supply? Makes me think of the Thinkpad T61 4:3 with it's waiting line. Then scrapping 4:3 because of "no demand". 100% bull[...].

All in all I hope they do the right thing, and don't cheap out on $0.1 options this time, but I'm not putting any money on it. If the price is decent I might buy it, but not if it's something useless. Skipping the forward/back buttons, like shown on the blog, is one of the $0.1 options that they better not screw up.

[Norway Pad]

Pfff, the nonsense.

Let's refrain from referring to other's views and opinions as nonsense, shall we?

[lead_org]

David Hill is actually a very nice person. Please don't pass judgement on him without actually knowing him in person. Also, if David Hill didn't take the initative in getting rendering and blog done, we will still be looking at the current ThinkPad design.

[BillMorrow]

3. hackable bios, to allow removal of wlan/wwan whitelist.

i've seen several requests for this..
can not be done..
these things need to be certified by the FCC for the USA market and i imagine other nations similar agencies that control RF and the like..
there will always be a need for some sort of white list..

you guys can hack if you wish but lenovo can not..

saw another comment taking on the name "retro"..
ok, its only a sort of internal name at this point..
i like "classic" and a few other names i can't recall at the moment..

[Puppy]

ests for this..
can not be done..
these things need to be certified by the FCC for the USA market and i imagine other nations similar agencies that control RF and the like..

Does Acer sell in the USA ? Do they have wireless BIOS blacklists ?

[lophiomys]

I am all in for such a "Classic Thinkpad",
similar to the UXGA 133DPI T43p and T42p
or the X300 with a better screen. (EDIT)

4:3 (= 16:12) would be even better than 16:10 .

coreboot (LinuxBIOS) and a legacy BIOS option would be great,
same a full LINUX support.

[bhtooefr]

The problem is, a screen in production "not so long ago" is already gone, and I wouldn't be surprised if the tooling's gone. Tiny margin industry, you don't keep things around taking up factory space that you're not using.

Also, I'm pretty sure that 2880x1620 existed somewhere other than Lenovo. Even if it is custom, it makes sense to build a custom panel if you know you're going to sell a lot of it. This is how Apple got their panels - they only have one model that they advertise in each respective size class (with the exception of the 13" class, and those models are quite a bit different), and only one display option per model. Let's use the 15" MBPR as an example, if it were a ThinkPad (let's assume it stayed 16:10), it'd have 1440x900, 1680x1050, 1920x1200, and 2880x1800 panel options, and most customers would buy 1680x1050 or 1920x1200. Apple only offered 2880x1800, if you didn't like that, go somewhere else, and that's how they got the volumes up. (At the MBPR's launch, they did also offer a model with a 1440x900 panel and an optical drive, but still.)

How many people would really buy a 4:3 T60/T61 homage? It'd be this forum, basically, and there's not the economies of scale to do that, unless Lenovo discontinues, say, the entire T series, and probably the L series too, except for this retro machine to force people to buy it, or hides the T and L series deep within their site where nobody can find it. That's the kind of move that Apple makes to sell a machine that requires high economies of scale, and it's a kind of move that Lenovo can't actually afford to do, I suspect.

This doesn't explain the Chromebook Pixel's 3:2ish panel, but then the Chromebook Pixel is incredibly expensive for the hardware you get, and Google might be subsidizing it to push the Chromebook platform. I don't think Lenovo wants to do the $5000 laptop thing, because you know, it worked out so well when they sold an X61s wrapped in leather for $5000.

4:3 isn't happening unless you want a 9.7" screen. And, while that would actually be pretty awesome (although I'd still want something a bit wider than that to match the keyboard, as I don't want an impossibly tiny keyboard), it's a fundamentally different machine than a "T92" or "retro ThinkPad" should be.

For what it's worth, going below 14.1" (maybe 13.3" with the bezels on lower cost panels, because the 600 is narrower than a 14.1" 4:3 T-series) in 4:3 doesn't actually make that much sense - once the screen is narrower than the keyboard, it's time to make the screen shorter to reduce size, unless you want to shrink the keyboard, too (ala X-series before the X200). A 14.1" 4:3 display is 286.5 mm wide, a 13.3" 4:3 display is 270.3 mm wide, and a full-size keyboard as used in a ThinkPad is 285 mm wide. And, a 13.3" 16:10 display is also 286.5 mm wide.

It's worth noting that my idea of a 700C homage (but much thinner, of course) vaguely based on the X201 with a 13.3" 16:10 LCD uses a panel that has already been suggested in this thread as being available for use in the X301-esque retro concept. (My idea would be very tight - like XPS 13 with Infinity Display tight - mind you, given that IBM nor Lenovo never actually crammed a 14.1" 4:3 panel, which is the same width, into a 297 mm wide chassis - the narrowest they got was 304 mm in the T2x and T30.) And, while it's not 4:3, a 4:3 display in this chassis would leave a lot of bezel on the sides. I mean, just look at a 760XD: http://f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/ ... 085204.jpg

[600X]

If I recall properly, a number of laptops use the 3k panel. Not sure if it is the exact same Panasonic as used by lenovo, but I assume it is. After all, I would never expect lenovo to have a custom panel produced for them these days. There is way too much cost cutting involved for something like that to happen.

MSI uses the 3k display in their GT60 and GS60. Don't ask me to name all notebooks with this panel, but I know there are a few.

[ajkula66]

The problem is, a screen in production "not so long ago" is already gone, and I wouldn't be surprised if the tooling's gone. Tiny margin industry, you don't keep things around taking up factory space that you're not using.

I thought the very same thing until a couple of years ago, when my eyes were opened to the fact that there's a whole another industry that uses screens which are effectively laptop screens - at least for the most part - and is still hanging, with valid reasons, onto 4:3 format...produced by the very same factories that produce laptop LCDs.

Also, I'm pretty sure that 2880x1620 existed somewhere other than Lenovo.

I'm willing to accept that I was wrong about this particular panel.

How many people would really buy a 4:3 T60/T61 homage?

I have no real numbers to offer, but suspect that the number would be higher than anyone imagines right now...

This doesn't explain the Chromebook Pixel's 3:2ish panel, but then the Chromebook Pixel is incredibly expensive for the hardware you get, and Google might be subsidizing it to push the Chromebook platform.

Well, once again...I don't expect that we're going to be looking at an inexpensive system if Lenovo ever decides to release one...

I don't think Lenovo wants to do the $5000 laptop thing, because you know, it worked out so well when they sold an X61s wrapped in leather for $5000.

I'd argue that the reason that one had failed was the fact that it was *nothing but* a X61 wrapped in leather...not quite the same situation here.

A T6x 15" frame has enough space in it to accept a modern board with 4 RAM slots, improved cooling etc.etc. People who are crying for a workstation don't care about the thickness, or expect a 3lb unit. Not to mention that they are the ones who historically have no problem dishing out $3-4K every couple of years.

4:3 isn't happening unless you want a 9.7" screen.

The only reason why it wouldn't happen is the fact that Lenovo has no interest in developing such a system, which is well within their rights.

Let's face it: how many laptops are out there with a 16:10 LCD? Two Panasonics and a couple of fruity ones. That's it. So if Lenovo wants to "wow" the crowd with a panel in that aspect ratio, they might just have to come up with something new.

[bhtooefr]

I thought the very same thing until a couple of years ago, when my eyes were opened to the fact that there's a whole another industry that uses screens which are effectively laptop screens - at least for the most part - and is still hanging, with valid reasons, onto 4:3 format...produced by the very same factories that produce laptop LCDs.

How are the viewing angles and contrast ratios? Or, for that matter, the pixel densities?

I mean, some 1024x768 TN 12.1" panel from a piece of test equipment could WORK, but it wasn't good on a $5000 leather-wrapped X61s in 2007, and it wouldn't be good in a special edition retro ThinkPad today.

I'd argue that this machine probably needs to be in the $1500-2000 area for a base model if it has any chance of succeeding, and at that price, to have a 4:3 display and decent specs - that means more than a 32 gig SSD, I'm looking at you, Chromebook Pixel - it needs to be the volume model. Especially when there's expensive processes required to make the rubber coating more durable - it's probably more expensive to build a durable rubber-coated machine than it is to build a Mac. That means it has to be the T460, in all likelihood, and there'd need to be no widescreen model of the T460.

Now, a 14.1" 4:3 T460 with a, say, 2560x1920 panel, and a quad core with Iris Pro, and all sorts of nods to the T60? That would be a compelling machine. But, I doubt the economies of scale are there, and I doubt Lenovo wants to throw the 16:9 model under the bus.

[Summilux]

I hope the survey can help narrow down this sort of thing, but some people are making ABSURD requests in the comments. A "5-core AMD processor with liquid cooling"? Dual Ethernet, on a laptop? AMD graphics? Fanless CPU setups? An LCD in the touchpad!? What are people smoking? Do they want to diverge the project to death?

I haven't come across these sorts of wishes, they really must be isolated.

Because from reading the comments on the blog, there is a very clear consensus regarding the following points:

- Classic/pre-chiclets keyboard
- 16/10 or 4/3 (or even 3/2) screen ratio
- Around 14" screen size
- IPS and high DPI screen resolution
- Status LEDs aplenty
- Removable battery and DIMMs

If Lenovo revives the T60 or X300 (more likely) and implements these features, they will be assured a good success. In terms of sales I can't make predictions, but they surely will have delivered on their intention to restore the brand.

A portion of users like Ajkula will still be waiting for a powerful workstation, but for the majority, Lenovo can't go wrong if they implement these specs.

I'd personally prefer a screen on the smaller side (12" to 13") but I certainly could stretch up to 14".

I don't think Lenovo need to reinvent the wheel here. From the blog consumers want an X220, an X301 and at least a T420.
Would it not be more economical to use these basic chassis with new mobo and screen?

It certainly would, but marketing-wise, I don't think Lenovo can just bring them back without some sort of lifting. That'd be too much of a backtracking, I'd wager.

But overall, yes, it shouldn't take Lenovo a great deal of engineering to materialise this project. Everything is already there. As you said, they mainly need to work on making a new mobo and pick & fit a nice screen.

At this point, it's more a matter of commercial will.

[Summilux]

4:3 isn't happening unless you want a 9.7" screen. And, while that would actually be pretty awesome (although I'd still want something a bit wider than that to match the keyboard, as I don't want an impossibly tiny keyboard)

Modern 701, butterfly homage, woohoo!

[bhtooefr]

OK, point, a 9.7" screen would be fantastic on a modern butterfly. I don't see it ever being produced (no provision for a trackpad), but an X960 (X702, maybe?) with a 4 or 15 W CPU, an iPad LCD, and a butterfly keyboard... I'd buy that.

[lead_org]

https://youtu.be/XQtEZWXwpoo

If you look at the video at 37 minutes mark, you should get a hint of where ThinkPad Retro model might head in the future.

[ajkula66]

How are the viewing angles and contrast ratios? Or, for that matter, the pixel densities?

Have you seen any of the Hydis UXGA LED panels in person? These were not built for use in laptops, although they shipped with Lenovo firmware...

I'd agree that for a *really* great LCD nowadays, one would need something with better sRGB coverage than what these offer, but that's an obtainable goal.

I'd argue that this machine probably needs to be in the $1500-2000 area for a base model if it has any chance of succeeding

For Mr. Hill's current design I'd argue the same. For a workstation offering it could go *much* higher if properly spec'd.

But, I doubt the economies of scale are there, and I doubt Lenovo wants to throw the 16:9 model under the bus.

I don't believe that Lenovo keeping the 16:9 aspect ratio on their "mainstream" models would have anything to do with development of a "classic" line.

[bhtooefr]

I don't believe that Lenovo keeping the 16:9 aspect ratio on their "mainstream" models would have anything to do with development of a "classic" line.

Economies of scale. The more panels they buy, the cheaper they are per panel, and the cheaper the computer using the panel is, which increases sales of the computer.

It's my suspicion that they'd need to replace 16:9 with 4:3 to get the volumes high enough to get the price low enough for it to sell.

[pianowizard]

Wow, so many new posts in just several days! I scanned through all of them and could spend a full day typing up a long response to everyone's interesting comments. But since I don't have that much free time, I will just reply to 600X's response to my last post:

These days, it's hard to market something that doesn't have a retina-like resolution, so although I'd be very happy about 1920x1280 myself, I don't see that happening. Still, 2560x1600 isn't too bad.

1920x1280 on 13.3" (173.5 DPI) is just what I consider optimal for this hypothetical Classic Thinkpad. 1920x1280 isn't the only 3:2 resolution, obviously. Google's Chromebook Pixel uses a 12.85" 2560x1700 screen, which is sort of 3:2 (3.012:2 to be exact), and at 239.15 DPI, it's certainly "retina". So, if Lenovo wants something marketable, using the exact same screen as the Google Pixel might not be a bad idea. With a surface area of 76.10 square inches, this 12.85" panel is actually *bigger* than a 13.3" 16:9 screen, which is only 75.59 sq. in.

Looks like 4:3 still has a sizeable fan base, but if this Classic Thinkpad is 4:3, I would almost certainly not buy one. 4:3 is good for users who usually maximize the active window but is inconvenient when we want to view windows side by side, unless it's a huge high-res screen like 15.0" 1920x1440 (1600x1200 isn't wide enough). But such a laptop wouldn't be very portable.

I plan on buying a new high-end laptop in about a year. If this Classic Thinkpad turns out to be 3:2, around 13" and under 3 lbs (but not too light and fragile), I would seriously consider it. If not, the Microsoft Surface Pro 3 would suit me better.

[bit_twiddler]

David Hill is actually a very nice person. Please don't pass judgement on him without actually knowing him in person. Also, if David Hill didn't take the initiative in getting rendering and blog done, we will still be looking at the current ThinkPad design.

I'm inclined to give David the benefit of the doubt. It is hard to change the ways of these big companies, particularly when we're talking about niche markets. And, let's face it, power users that actually use their machines to get their work done are just a niche market. There are probably fewer than 5-10 million such users in the whole wide world. With all of their faults, Apple has simply done a better job listening to these customers than anyone else, and they have the guts to tell their supply chain what they need, instead of being jerked around by morons.

These big companies can fail. Look at Microsoft with Windows 8, or GM and Chrysler.

Let's hope that David Hill is successful, and support him, even if his first iteration is not perfect.
Otherwise, Lenovo will be gone as a supplier of serious business and engineering machines, at least in the States, and they'll wind up only being able to sell disposable tablets which were designed by Ashton Kutcher to bratty little kids on skateboards.

[600X]

Let's face it: how many laptops are out there with a 16:10 LCD? Two Panasonics and a couple of fruity ones. That's it. So if Lenovo wants to "wow" the crowd with a panel in that aspect ratio, they might just have to come up with something new.

Acutally, there is a Samsung Ultrabook with 16:10 as well: http://techreport.com/news/27573/samsun ... ga-display

Granted, it's just one addition, but with the low number of 16:10 laptops, as you have correctly pointed out, it is a significant addition.

[ajkula66]

Acutally, there is a Samsung Ultrabook with 16:10 as well: http://techreport.com/news/27573/samsun ... ga-display

Thanks for reminding me. I've completely forgotten about that one.

Granted, it's just one addition, but with the low number of 16:10 laptops, as you have correctly pointed out, it is a significant addition.

Which brings up another discussion point: two of these companies - Panasonic and Samsung - make their own LCDs. Apple uses - AFAIK - LG panels.

Where is Lenovo intent on getting the LCD for the upcoming 16:10 "retro" unit, presuming that's the ratio that they stick with if we get to see this laptop "live" in the first place? I'd tend to believe that Retina panels are locked under some sort of proprietary deal, knowing the way that Apple operates...

[hhhd1]

3. hackable bios, to allow removal of wlan/wwan whitelist.

i've seen several requests for this..
can not be done..
these things need to be certified by the FCC for the USA market and i imagine other nations similar agencies that control RF and the like..
there will always be a need for some sort of white list..

you guys can hack if you wish but lenovo can not..

Since T530 (the *30 series), Lenovo have started to not allow their laptops to accept any customized BIOS.

Lenovo should remain free to add the whitelist that they want, but ,what I am asking is to keep the option open for people who want to customize that BIOS, and possibly removing whitelist or modifying keyboard maps ..etc..

[ajkula66]

what I am asking is to keep the option open for people who want to customize that BIOS, and possibly removing whitelist or modifying keyboard maps ..etc..

No one keeps their BIOS "open" because they would be liable for all the warranty claims that would surface from end users playing with it. Let alone other - possibly more serious in the long run - damages.

Lenovo will stick with whitelists. Some of us here cried "foul" to IBM when these were first introduced on P4M era laptops, to no avail. The same trend continued with Lenovo, who now has more power than ever to lock the BIOS/UEFI area than ever.

In other words, they'll stick with their current path regardless of what people think about it. They've proven so in the past decade and we should honestly learn to live with these limitations at this point in the game, anticipate the end result and plan accordingly.

[lophiomys]

...

Granted, it's just one addition, but with the low number of 16:10 laptops, as you have correctly pointed out, it is a significant addition.

Which brings up another discussion point: two of these companies - Panasonic and Samsung - make their own LCDs. Apple uses - AFAIK - LG panels.

Where is Lenovo intent on getting the LCD for the upcoming 16:10 "retro" unit, presuming that's the ratio that they stick with if we get to see this laptop "live" in the first place? I'd tend to believe that Retina panels are locked under some sort of proprietary deal, knowing the way that Apple operates...

If this should turn out to be true,
that Lenovo would not be able to source some high res and high quality 16:10 or 4:3 LCDs,
then Lenovo would be doomed and its management would deserve a good punishment,
for not getting this defiency straightened out during the the last 10-years!

[bhtooefr]

Which brings up another discussion point: two of these companies - Panasonic and Samsung - make their own LCDs. Apple uses - AFAIK - LG panels.

Apple also uses Samsung panels, and my 15" Mid-2012 MacBook Pro Retina has a Samsung panel. (I checked, because I originally got one with an LG panel, but had to exchange it due to horrible image retention issues, combined with chassis machining defects.)

Where is Lenovo intent on getting the LCD for the upcoming 16:10 "retro" unit, presuming that's the ratio that they stick with if we get to see this laptop "live" in the first place? I'd tend to believe that Retina panels are locked under some sort of proprietary deal, knowing the way that Apple operates...

Most likely they'd get Samsung and/or LG to make a "custom" new panel that JUST HAPPENS to be a 13.3" 16:10 IPS panel. All of the layers except the very top layer (which Apple got full custom) wouldn't have to be custom, and I wouldn't be surprised if it did come from the same line as Apple's panels.

[600X]

There was some talk about the 13" MacBook retina Display being used in the retro. But no confirmation as of now. It's not much use speculating anyway because we don't know what the final specs of the machine will be.

[lead_org]

It is not that Lenovo can't source the screen, but rather the cost of these 4:3, 3:2 in the size and spec they wanted cost a lot of money. Using these panel will probably push 30 to 40% of potential buyers out of the market for this laptop. We don't want the retro ThinkPad become another ThinkPad Reserve model.

[ajkula66]

It is not that Lenovo can't source the screen, but rather the cost of these 4:3, 3:2 in the size and spec they wanted cost a lot of money. Using these panel will probably push 30 to 40% of potential buyers out of the market for this laptop. We don't want the retro ThinkPad become another ThinkPad Reserve model.

Let's just hope that there's no cutting corners on this model...

Personally, I feel that such an option - "would you pay an extra $500 for a 90% sRGB 4:3/3:2 IPS LCD" or something along those lines - should be a part of the survey, but obviously that's not my call to make...

[plympton]

Ok, that's it. I won't be happy unless it is a 3.14159:2 ratio. Anything else just won't do.

[ajkula66]

Ok, that's it. I won't be happy unless it is a 3.14159:2 ratio. Anything else just won't do.

I like the Pi that you've sneaked in there...

[600X]

That's a good idea actually. I'm sure the marketing team can use that somehow.