we design the next generation of the thinkpad

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eigh · #1 Post by **eigh** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:00 am

in this thread we post links (and maybe a short description) about advancements in notebook technology that we think should/will be implemented into future generations of thinkpads:

Hybrid hard drives: a hard drive that loads data into a temporary buffer (a gigabyte in size or so) then powers down to save battery. when needed the hd spins back up and loads to the buffer or to where it is needed.
bad idea since most of the time you would need to go to the hard drive for some small file access. the only way this would benefit is if it loaded everything a program would use into memory, every file in the games directory, so it would NEVER need to access the hd during that programs life. if looked at in the broader spectrum, would this include windows, most of your C:\ partition? where would that preloading stop?

WUSB (wireless usb):
the functionality and universal acceptance of usb, the target speeds of 480mbps, the target range of 10 meters, the death of bluetooth
(the standards and technology still need to be finalized, so the numbers you will read are all just target specifications)
some useres below stated concerns that this wireless standard would requre great ammounts of power to run (impractical for battery operated notebooks. does that mean bluetooth is still a viable short range wireless standard, low power consumption?) and that it would not be able to obtain anything close to 480Mbps, its theorhetical max speed.

Radeon x700:
i just know that in september other notebook manufacturer's will be coming out with models containing 128mb x700's
there were some hopes of being able to upgrade your video card on your laptop if you wanted to, just as easily (or close to it) if you were to upgrade the vid card on your desktop

Notebooks running off of fuel cells:
while a fuel cell doesnt provide the power needed to fully sustain a thinkpad, it can output a small ammount of power over a long period of time making a standard laptop battery last 8+ hours

Intel's Active Management Technology (AMT):
dont know the specifics, but the example i had read talked about being able to fix a notebook over the network through the bios, not windows (by fix i mean remotely cleaning a windows installation that was full of nasty viruses)

WIMAX (super long range wifi):
speeds of dsl or cable internet connections through a wireless connection (with the broadcast point up to 50 kilometers away from you!)

longer lasting batteries:
batteries taht are the same size, but made up of a different chemical composition. generating more electricity for longer periods of time (about twice as long)

the things that ive missed that i dont know any advancements in are:
screen
i have seen posts about OLED's below. some say that oled displays on a notebook would burnout every 2000 hours (or at least the blue coloring would) and are there for impractical for notebooks. other posts show lots of links to companies boasing of their magnificent oled screens

centrino chipsets

i would love to see what you think will/should be in the future of the thinkpad name.

(i can go ahead and rule out the oled optimus keyboard since it will be a power whore, impractical on a notebook, and just be pricy)

updated august 9th 2005

#2 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:27 pm

Be nice if I could get one that's not as thick as my arm and has modern specs (P4 and at least 512mb RAM) without having to give an arm or leg. (I'm a student and having 300 to spend on a computer would be nice, let alone 2000 or 3000 for the T series.)

Navck · #3 Post by **Navck** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:41 pm

Hopefully a better version of the Thinklight, possibly with adjustable brightness
Active light sensor, screen darkens/brightens on light

Thats all I'd need so far with the X600 or X700 (X600 is fine for me)

emorphien · #4 Post by **emorphien** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:45 pm

AlphaKilo470 wrote:Be nice if I could get one that's not as thick as my arm and has modern specs (P4 and at least 512mb RAM) without having to give an arm or leg. (I'm a student and having 300 to spend on a computer would be nice, let alone 2000 or 3000 for the T series.)

I'll take a dual core Pentium M over a P4 any day.

kaplanfx · #5 Post by **kaplanfx** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:08 pm

emorphien wrote: I'll take a dual core Pentium M over a P4 any day.

MMMM Yonah. Personally I think the Dothan rocks the single core P4 in a lot of ways as well.

-kaplanfx

eigh · #6 Post by **eigh** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:54 am

pent m mhz to pent 4 mhz, the pent m will win every time. id take a yonah over a pent d any day of the week.

the pent m's are just cooler, more efficent, and im not sure how, but better mhz for mhz (the p4 was made just because it could go faster, not necessarily better. after all we all know that the pent m was based off of the p3)

the T series is basicly an inch think, i think thats PERFECT, just tiny as crap for thinkness. unfortunately youd never get it for 300$.

one thing though, the only place selling 300$ notebooks (or anything close) is dell. for ibm (and other manufacturers) there is just a point where they are better off not making it anymore. it looks like if ibm cant make at least 1000$ (or 800 through the epp), it isnt worth them selling it to you. now while dell has started to make some celeron m's for 400-500$ there isnt much there. i think it would be great if you could get a p3 800mhz or pent m 800mhz thinkpad for like 300$. unfortunately they would rather sell you more than you need, and make more of a prophit. thats business, IF that would change, it will take a while.

bhtooefr · #7 Post by **bhtooefr** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:57 am

Hmm... go buy a refurbished T22 for around $450 direct from IBM

sethstorm · #8 Post by **sethstorm** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:54 am

eigh wrote: the things that ive missed that i dont know any advancements in are:
screen

Wouldnt mind seeing a CTO option on the T series for the large screen that the R50p's can get:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=495

Also, if it's even possible, a dual bay+dual pcmcia machine to return to the lineup that isnt neutered in some way (given integrated/low end discrete graphics and/or is XGA only as it is done to TCPA-less machines)? Something that's about the thickness of the R, but has the featureset of the A3*/A3*p as if they continued to the A40 series.

a31pguy · #9 Post by **a31pguy** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:47 pm

Hehehe - you asked. Welcome to the A51p

All-weather, All-purpose, All-in-one - do-everything laptop.

Dual-Core Pentium Ms
Dual-Channel DDR memory to 4 gb
Overclocking Support
ATI X700 PCI-E graphics in a modular graphics bay
WiMax in a Modular Bay
Bluetooth in a Modular Bay
Three Spindles (1 hard drive + 2 bays)
3 x USB 2.0
1 RS232-Serial Port (yes we professionals still use them)
DVI interface
Serial ATA drive support
RAID 1 support
True IEEE1394 support
Widescreen Display
Better airflow and thermal management
Trackpoint + Touchpad (with scrolling)
Anti-theft lock mount point
Hard drive with built in whole hard drive encryption
Anti-theft recovery software in BIOS (aka Lo-jack for the PC)
Thinklight
Built-in video camera
Built-in Microphone
Build-in speakers
SPDIF optical out
24-bit six channel audio (certified THX) dedicated sound processor
video in/capture via DVI
Facial Recognition Software + finger print reader.
PCMCIA cardbus (this time with fast drivers)
Fax Modem
SD card slot
Dual Battery (hot swappable)
Harsh environment capable (rubber port/slot covers, keyboard cover, HE Case) Stainless Steel Hinges, Blackened Titanium Case. Rain / Salt Water resistant.

Docking station

Modular expansion bay
IEEE1394 connector
1xParallel Port
PCI-E slot
DVI or Dual DVI ports
Serial ATA drive support with 1-touch backups/restores
2xPCMCIA
6x USB 2.0
Increase cooling to the thinkpad while docked for better thermal management
spare battery charger

Better bluetooth keyboard mouse for cable management of the workspace
DVD/BlueRay/HD-DVD burner with CD-R/CD-RW support

I don't care if it's 2 inches thick if it does better as a desktop replacement. Light and small is good but not at the expense of functionality. I can buy a tiny computer that doesn't do much almost anywhere.

Edit - looking it over, all it needs now is black thermal tiles and some solid rocket boosters.

bhtooefr · #10 Post by **bhtooefr** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:18 pm

Holee CRAP...

With all of those features, I think you mean the G50p...

That is ONE HELL of a lappy...

emorphien · #11 Post by **emorphien** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:58 pm

I can understand why someone wants those monster 2" 9 pound laptops, but they're not for me. I'm more interested in good mobility than uber performance (ok I lied my T43p seems to give me a lot of both!).

If I didn't get the huge discount on my laptop by ordering educational and doing RAM upgrades myself I would accept losing some performance to get a more portable machine.

I certainly wouldn't have paid normal price for my T43p.

Navck · #12 Post by **Navck** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:38 am

a31pguy wrote:Hehehe - you asked. Welcome to the A51p All-weather, All-purpose, All-in-one - do-everything laptop.

Dual-Core Pentium Ms
Dual-Channel DDR memory to 4 gb
Overclocking Support
ATI X700 PCI-E graphics in a modular graphics bay
WiMax in a Modular Bay
Bluetooth in a Modular Bay
Three Spindles (1 hard drive + 2 bays)
3 x USB 2.0
1 RS232-Serial Port (yes we professionals still use them)
DVI interface
Serial ATA drive support
RAID 1 support
True IEEE1394 support
Widescreen Display
Better airflow and thermal management
Trackpoint + Touchpad (with scrolling)
Anti-theft lock mount point
Hard drive with built in whole hard drive encryption
Anti-theft recovery software in BIOS (aka Lo-jack for the PC)
Thinklight
Built-in video camera
Built-in Microphone
Build-in speakers
SPDIF optical out
24-bit six channel audio (certified THX) dedicated sound processor
video in/capture via DVI
Facial Recognition Software + finger print reader.
PCMCIA cardbus (this time with fast drivers)
Fax Modem
SD card slot
Dual Battery (hot swappable)
Harsh environment capable (rubber port/slot covers, keyboard cover, HE Case) Stainless Steel Hinges, Blackened Titanium Case. Rain / Salt Water resistant.

Docking station

Modular expansion bay
IEEE1394 connector
1xParallel Port
PCI-E slot
DVI or Dual DVI ports
Serial ATA drive support with 1-touch backups/restores
2xPCMCIA
6x USB 2.0
Increase cooling to the thinkpad while docked for better thermal management
spare battery charger

Better bluetooth keyboard mouse for cable management of the workspace
DVD/BlueRay/HD-DVD burner with CD-R/CD-RW support

I don't care if it's 2 inches thick if it does better as a desktop replacement. Light and small is good but not at the expense of functionality. I can buy a tiny computer that doesn't do much almost anywhere.

Edit - looking it over, all it needs now is black thermal tiles and some solid rocket boosters.

No no no...
You're looking at XPS Gen 3, except its fragile

Quote froim a forum

1P3371C337 wrote: my prfect laptop would be dis
23 inch LSDs screen cuz its kewl
pentium 1337-megamobile
dualie nvidum 66666600000ULTRAMEGA cardz in qunintupplet slieee
1337l1t3s!!! with fireyWORKZ mode.
bazillion laayyr burner with blur-ay
1337 gilobite harderdrive
baaaziollionz of usb firewire n stuffz portZ!111

Notice utter lack of intelligence?
Lets hightlight
"23 inch LSD screen"
Wait, wouldn't that... Kill you?
Notice his name, hes trying to go 1337 and put PC in that.
"Dual 6666666660000000000000ULTRA"s
I'm guessing in the year 8750024602746742? And "Quinttupplet SLIS", seesh
"1337 GB harddrive"
No, I don't think you need to prove you're stupid any farther
"BAZZZILLIONS OF USB FIREWIRE"
I never heard of a USBFIREWIRE port, or the number "bazillion".
"Pentium 1337-M"
Wouldn't the heat from that thing kill you? (Pentium 4-m, hack cough hack)

I rather not mention the stupidity but don't become that guy.

#13 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:12 am

I think that guy was just trying to G37 0N y3r n3RV35 (get on your nerves) with that post.

Torque · #14 Post by **Torque** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:41 am

Navck

The post was most likely a joke. Get the irony.

a31pguy · #15 Post by **a31pguy** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:07 pm

bhtooefr wrote:Holee CRAP...

With all of those features, I think you mean the G50p...

That is ONE HELL of a lappy...

Hehehe - yeah - but I'm not happy with the way they've been going with the G50p.

a31pguy · #16 Post by **a31pguy** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:16 pm

You're looking at XPS Gen 3, except its fragile

Closer... but still too fragile. Can't tell you how many Dell's I've seen with cracked and broken hinges. I call them "expireware" instead of hardware since they should come with freshness dates.

My definition of a good laptop is one that you can rebuild and upgrade and continue to use. Laptop contain so much valuable information - you shouldn't have to completely nuke them every couple of years and start over!

So that's why the Ti case and stainless hinges. The case/frame/display should be top quality. Ideally they should be standardized like the ATX board/case spec.

Everything in my dream a51p contains modular bays for configuration flexibility and upgrades.

Navck · #17 Post by **Navck** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:21 pm

My post was a joke too

Minor note - There WAS an actual post (Exactly as I quoted) on the Gamefaqs forum...

Ground Loop · #18 Post by **Ground Loop** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:36 pm

eigh wrote:in this thread we post links (and maybe a short description) about advancements in notebook technology that we think should/will be implemented into future generations of thinkpads:

Hybrid hard drives: a hard drive that loads data into a temporary buffer (a gigabyte in size or so) then powers down to save battery. when needed the hd spins back up and loads to the buffer or to where it is needed.

I hear this often, but don't understand it. You're asking or a hard drive cache on the hard drive. If I had a gigabyte more of memory, I'd want it right where it belongs -- on the system bus, where it can be a cache of anything. Putting it on the hard drive just puts it on the slower ATA bus.

The problem here is entirely software. It's the frequent scribbling that Windows does to the hard which keeps it spinning, not re-reading the same data repeatedly. All these logs, events, registry updates, security checks -- they all seem to want to write something to the hard drive. Run SysInternals FileMon to see all the nonsense that gets "polled" on disk.

A huge on-drive cache wouldn't solve any of this -- the writes would still spin up the drive unless there was some smarter software caching them until they are periodically flushed.

WUSB (wireless usb):
the functionality and universal acceptance of usb, the target speeds of 480mbps, the target range of 10 meters, the death of bluetooth
(the standards and technology still need to be finalized, so the numbers you will read are all just target specifications)

Those kinds of data rates would require a much wider spectrum than is currently allowed in Part15. Quite a bit of power too.

Wire has the advantage of being inherantly private, and easier to "pair". Wireless always introduces the question of discovery, authentication, encryption, and so on.. those are heavy overhead.

Notebooks running off of fuel cells:
while a fuel cell doesnt provide the power needed to fully sustain a thinkpad, it can output a small ammount of power over a long period of time making a standard laptop battery last 8+ hours

This would be great, and seems reasonable if they can get the bulk down to a portable size. It would be like a constant low-wattage charger -- perfect.

Intel's Active Management Technology (AMT):
dont know the specifics, but the example i had read talked about being able to fix a notebook over the network through the bios, not windows (by fix i mean remotely cleaning a windows installation that was full of nasty viruses)

This is not far from the IBM "preboot" idea, whether from BIOS or reserved boot partition. A protected area that can restore the factory image is probably the most direct path here, and we have that already.

For screen, I'd like to see something that is less viewing-angle sensitive in the vertical direction. The darker colors the 14" T43 screen go totally nuts if you view them from too far up or down -- especially down. This makes casual movie watching a frustrating deal as I constantly have to tune the angle of the screen to get decent colors.

Soo.. more brightness, daylight viewing, and more pixels.

Dell has a 1920x1200 screen available on their 17" notebooks.. yow!

card reader
A CompactFlash and/or SD card reader would be much appreciated, especially now that we have only one CardBus slot.

legacy delete
To make space, they can delete the parallel port. And IrDA port. And make the 56k modem optional. Others may disagree.

Navck · #19 Post by **Navck** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:18 pm

*Chants*
Legacy! Legacy! Legacy! Legacy!

Sorry, IBM/Lenovo is the last remaining notebook manufacture who keeps legacy

lophiomys · #20 Post by **lophiomys** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:09 pm

I vote for a
silent & cool Thinkpad
for coding, typing, reading and thinking

no noise emmision at all,
max 25 °C outside-case temp, no hot-spots (thermal design!)
... with a "cool room"- mode to warm your fingers in winter

transportable and light-weight, whilst robust
15" screen with pivot function

solid state disk / flash memory
easy to use data security and one-touch encryption/backup
built-in, removeable 1 GB USB stick

8h battery live
hot-swappable batteries, with charge-level-dispay-leds

high-fi audio system for headphone output (simple speakers will do)
an integrated radio (FM and digital terrestrial)

linux support
all kinds of connectivity (usb2, firewire, sd-card, ..., bluetooth, wlan)

keep
* brilliant display
* keyboard/trackpoint layout
* legacy ports (serial/parallel)
* ThinkLight

Navck · #21 Post by **Navck** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:30 pm

T5x
Stay 1 inch thick
Thinklight
Harddrive protection
Carbon fiber below plastic, titanium frame for shape, and magesnium fiber lid
Keep keyboard layout
Trackpoint must be kept at all costs
A cover for touchpad/option to remove
Make it so lid is not tapered, but symetrical on both sides
Keep legacy
Keep IR
Add 1 USB port, by modifiying heatsink area, (Small part never exausts air, perfect for 3rd USB port)
Keep the LED design, make battery LED have multiple steps (So we can indentify what percentage its at, from 5%, 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%) Red = 5%, 25% = Orange LED, 50% = Yellow, 75% = Green (Dim) 100% = Bright green (To keep it simple)
Have original antenna, and antenna extension port
Intergrated Bluetooth antenna + Wireless extension antenna, can be pulled out (You pull it out about 10 inches, then rotate it up)
Brightness sensor (Can be used to change LCD brightness automatically, or disabled software/hardware wise)
4 LED in one module thinklight + Light spreader infront of both
100% waterproof keyboard (O Ring seals around keyboard, so if you spill, you tip it to release water)
X300 standard/X600/X700 "maximum" upgrade upgradable video. Possibly give it capablity to share system memory? Allow user to easily change from "power save/battery" to "full capablity" mode
Sonoma/Etc platform variants (For users who don't like extra heat or such)
Ultrabay slim
Ultrabay slim USB/Firewire port expansion bay
Ultrabay slim card reader (Possibly compact flash and some other more popular/common variants)
Capablity to turn backlight off
VGA out support
S-Video out support
Standard audio ports
Legacy ports. Just because.

#22 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:18 pm

Navck wrote: Notice utter lack of intelligence?
Lets hightlight
"23 inch LSD screen"
Wait, wouldn't that... Kill you?

You just don't understand, that LSD screen is just so addicting.

BigWarpGuy · #23 Post by **BigWarpGuy** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:58 am

I think the next generation of Thinkpads should have an OLED (organic light emitting diode/display). It would not require backlighting and would not use alot of energy but give a better display of colors. I have heard of different companies developing OLED screens.

BigWarpGuy · #24 Post by **BigWarpGuy** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:04 pm

It would be neat if the future Thinkpad would boot from non-volitile memory/ram? (similar to the way a pda does but where one can upgrade the operating system). It would load alot faster than the loading from the hard drive and probably not have to endure some of the problems hard drives encounter yet be treated like a hard drive.

Navck · #25 Post by **Navck** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:48 pm

OLED = Bad. First color dies out is either blue or green (VERY FAST), then the remaining color dies, you only got a RED screen now.
http://www.dansdata.com/iball.htm
"OLED" search for it

An OLED screen won't be useless even if its blue channel's completely dead, of course; any colour but pure blue will still be visible, just without the blue component. But, as I've said before, this problem still rules OLED out for long term video display purposes.

A flash player with a great video mode but an OLED screen is, therefore, not a brilliant option for watching a whole lot of stuff on, even if the screen's high res.

http://www.dansdata.com/gz044.htm

So OLED would mean replacing your screen every 2000 hours or so...

BigWarpGuy · #26 Post by **BigWarpGuy** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:00 pm

How you had a device with an OLED screen? Do you have experience with an OLED screen? I have heard of only a hand full of devices that use it and none - so far - are computers. I read that they are still in developement.

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1016892823512113/
"Sony says no OLED screens this year."

http://www.stargeek.com/item/11592.html
"Prototype of a 20-inch display from Taiwanese company IDTech that uses OLED (Organic Light-Emitting Diodes). These are going to be replacing LCD screens really, really soon, since they're brighter, thinner, use less power, and will eventually be cheaper to produce than LCDs."

http://news.softpedia.com/news/OLED-the ... -506.shtml
"The first generation of handheld devices that use an innovative new display technology will be in the shops soon, so be ready to forget about fuzzy, low-resolution screens on your mobile phone, digital camera or portable music player."

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050105-4500.html
"Samsung shows off 21" OLED display"

http://www.primidi.com/2002/10/31.html
"Roll-up computer screen set to debut soon -- but in 2005 or in 2012?"

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/1223/274_print.html
"The display screens of tomorrow may be no thicker than a piece of paper and brighter than any laptop screen. Richard friend thinks that's only the start for his supermolecules."

http://www.consumersearch.com/www/compu ... story.html
"If you're ready to upgrade your computer monitor, you might wonder whether to ... PC Magazine calls OLED "one of the most promising upcoming technologies."

some sites on the OLED.

#27 Post by **AlphaKilo470** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:19 pm

The current generation Toshiba Libretto has LED backlighting. While this concept might be impractical the larger 15 inch and some 14 inch model ThinkPad's, I'm pretty sure the 12" X series could benefit alot from LED backlighting. LED's are alot cheaper than CCFL's, alot more durable, alot brighter, alot less of a chance of burnout, LED's don't go dim and they are brighter.

wwarlock · #28 Post by **wwarlock** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:13 am

well if the blue in oled was a problem you would be having one already. most of the cell phone for about the last year are oled. and I have yet to hear of one that has the blue out in it. However I have read reports about the blue goig out in oled and yes it can go out. but the screen would cost like 75$ to fix so every 2000 or so hours of use and 75$ later a new screen might be worth it. I mean all of the new rear projection tvs have bulbs that go out about that offten and they coast 250 - 350$ and you dont hear people complaining or banning those do you? beside the coast of a new battery would offset the price of the screen in savings.

William

#29 Post by **GomJabbar** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:10 am

wwarlock wrote:so every 2000 or so hours of use and 75$ later a new screen might be worth it. I mean all of the new rear projection tvs have bulbs that go out about that offten and they coast 250 - 350$ and you dont hear people complaining or banning those do you?

I have a 40" rear screen Mitsubishi TV that I bought around 1988. It has been to the shop once, and it wasn't to replace one of the projection bulbs you mention. The TV is on nearly every day. Right now, the only problems with it are; that the amplifier is out for the built-in speakers, so I have to play it through my stereo system, and some of the buttons on the front of the set are broken. I guess that TV is really living on borrowed time.

bhtooefr · #30 Post by **bhtooefr** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:06 am

GomJabbar: Your TV is a rear projection CRT. wwarlock is referring to rear projection LCDs and DLP units.

we design the next generation of the thinkpad

we design the next generation of the thinkpad

Re: we design the next generation of the thinkpad

hehehe - you asked.

Re: hehehe - you asked.

Re: we design the next generation of the thinkpad

cool and quiet ... for thinking

Re: hehehe - you asked.

OLED Screen?

boot from non-voletile memory/ram?

How Many Devices with OLED Screen?

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