I have lost my faith in the Thinkpad Brand.

[dxps26]

I Have always regarded Thinkpads as the ultimate portable computer, ever since I laid my eyes on a T-series back in the day, I knew I wanted one. it is really disappointing to see my faith being shattered like this, after 12 years of lusting and longing.

I bought a Brand New T420 (4178-6VU) on the 14th of March, and I supplemented the 3-year warranty with a Thinkpad Protection Plan on the 31st of March, within the stipulated 90-day period. The TPP was bought over the Phone, and my Credit card was charged in exchange for a Case number.

Within 2 weeks of taking possession of the system, I began to notice quality problems throughout -

1. Warped Plastics above the Thinkvantage Button and Delete Key
2. loose, free moving and flexing palmrest above the HDD bay
3. at least 3mm of flex on the keyboard in the lower right corner
4. a buzzing right speaker - it would pick up digital interference from the motherboard and amplify the signal - and this is a machine that boasts a whole platoon of certifications.
5. worst of all, a failing Trackpoint that would start jumping all over the screen on its own.

despite the overwhelmingly positive feedback about the T420, I think this is a poorly put-together system. I can forgive a single part failing suddenly within the first two weeks (as they often do- HDD's fail early or really late) but this computer just feels tardy and unworthy of a $1200 price tag.

I shipped the system to Memphis, TN on the 6th of april, and had to talk to 5 different people to confirm that I was covered by TPP - this was the worst part- nowhere in lenovo's records did my $163.65 spent translate to a TPP for my system. I was told by a Sales Rep from GA that i need to register my TPP with the unique serial number that is issued to every TPP sold, and linked to that machine. Nobody told me this until after i had to beg for my money's worth. Even after talking to people on two continents, I have not received an email from anybody confirming my Coverage, no mention of a Serial number, and I feel my money has been STOLEN by Lenovo. The Thinkvantage tool still shows my base 3-yr warranty, and no word of TPP.

So I recieved the system today, and this is what I found -

1. Keyboard Replaced - the 3mm of flex is still there.
2. Speaker replaced - the speaker still picks up interference from the motherboard
3. LCD bezel Replaced - This wasnt even a problem area to begin with. Why this was replaced, i have no clue.
4. palmrest replaced - indeed - with a part that DOES NOT belong on the 4178-6VU - no Fingerprint Reader, and no Bluetooth!!!

After calling 1800-883-9902, the Rep asked me if i'd like to send the machine in again.

Having worked in the hospitality service industry, I have the tenets of Service Recovery baked into my bones by now. This is not how an organization should respond to negative feedback. when your customer feels that your services have been wanting, you don't simply repeat the process and hope for the best. you take it up without worrying about what the customer is eligible for, and respond proactively.

I asked for a Total Refund, of both the Machine and the TPP I have purchased, and i was simply brushed off to take it up with sales.

How can an organization that deals with business customers have such a 'that's not my department' attitude? My desk is littered with post-its to help me deal with the crisis of owning a Lenovo Product. I have no confidence in the abilities of Lenovo, both engineering-wise and business-wise.

If a Lenovo Rep is reading this, be aware - this is how you lose goodwill. the Thinkpad brand will lapse into irrelevance soon if this sort of thing goes on.

BUYER BEWARE.

UPDATE : 17/4/12

Mark Hopkins, The Program Manager for Lenovo Social Media, has been in touch with me. A new case number has been assigned from both Atlanta (where some poor chap had to get an earful from me - Sorry He was very professional in the face of my verbal dive-bombing) and also from Mark. I just sent him a PM updating him about all this.

UPDATE : 22/4/12

I got a call from a representative from Lenovo USA, (name redacted on the advice of others on this forum) who was very patient in dealing with me.
I have asked for a replacement machine, along with an upgrade to On-Site services, as I am not confident in EasyServe's ability to carry out any repair work. He emailed me to say he will honour my request for on-site service, and send a replacement machine too.

Do replacement machines tend to be Refurbs or new machines? I understand an older model like a T60 or T400 in need of replacement may be substituted with a Refurbished machine, as it is no longer in production, but what about machines that are currently coming off the line in the factory??

[Kaze22]

This is what happens when you go from Laptops costing 2 grand to laptops costing 900 dollars.
Where do you think the 1100 dollars went? It went to the lowest bidders able to manufacture the cheapest parts, even if IBM still owned the Thinkpad line, it would be the same thing with these market prices. When I first saw the T420, my first impression was the built quality has declined since the T60 days.

The T420 is now considered a lower end Thinkpad now, if you wanted to impress, then you should have gone with the T420s. The built quality between the T420 and the T420s are night and day.

There's an old saying "You get what you pay for."

I bought a X301 back it was first released for almost 2 grand. Still using it to this day. Now that was quality, 2000 dollars worth of quality, ask someone to pay that now for a laptop and you'd be laughed out of the room. Not even Macbooks can command those prices nowadays.

Lenovo still makes good Thinkpads you just have to dig deeper into your wallet to get them.
The T420 is big and bulky, and not very well built. But then again what do you expect for those prices.
For a few hundred dollars more you can get the T420s which is closer to what you'd expect from a Thinkpad.

[dxps26]

Kaze22,

i know what you are saying about the decline in quality. the cultural shift is to have disposable machines. it seems all laptops are built the same these days, with the exception of macbooks. That, however, is no reason to offer poor services to customers.

I found the T420s to be slimmer and lighter, but that's about it. build quality-wise it felt just like the T420, and with its abysmal battery life and poor port selection(eSATA is a lifesaver) it made no sense. plus, the T420s seems to be evenly priced with the T420.

however, all the above is moot, because it does not offer any redress of the issue at hand. what is to be done, only Lenovo can tell.

[dr_st]

I've seen a few T420 units. And a lot of T410. They are well built. T410s/T420s are of course slimmer, lighter and more impressive machines. They don't cost more because they are built better (they are not), but because of the extra engineering/technology required to have such a powerful system, a large screen, and a device bay, in such a small package.

And yes, in a fiercely competitive economy, where everybody cares only about how to slash prices down and still make a profit, it's not only engineering that suffers, but also (and often foremost) customer services, that gets outsourced to someone totally incompetent. Yes, I've had similar experiences with Lenovo's departments, both sales and post-sales, and have heard countless stories even worse than my own.

That's the downside of living in the modern world where ever improving technology is offered at ever declining prices.

[dxps26]

dr_st,

Until the issue can be suitably resolved, I don't see how debating T420 versus T420s, or accepting a lower standard of service helps.

The economy may be fierce, but the Prices for Components have come down considerably in the last ten years across the board. To simply accept the quality of service as it stands only lowers the bar for Vendors. Unless the balance-sheet shows a loss due to poor after-sales service, this trend will continue. Allowing the vendor to get away with making grave errors such as removing functionality from a customer's machine (which is what they did after the nixed my bluetooth and fingerprint reader) will not eat into profits until we make it happen. Only then can Lenovo realize the true cost of unprofessional services.

[dr_st]

Who talked about letting anyone get away with anything?

By all means, pursue what you deserve, harass them until they give it to you, and don't accept partial solutions.

Just saying you shouldn't be surprised with the situation.

I've only dealt directly with Lenovo, and Lenovo is who we talk about on these forums, but the situation is probably not very different with other vendors as well.

[Kaze22]

The best way to describe the quality issue is if you put a mint condition T61 next to a brand new T420, you would think the T61 is a newer laptop.
Everything from the size, to the material used to house the chassis is superior. All you have to do is flip the laptop around and you'll notice that the expensive highgrade matte finished base plate that used to house all the old T series latops has now been replaced by what I would call "GIJOE TOY PLASTIC". In other words the cheapest low grade plastic you can find.

All the things that you mentioned about the hinge, the fan noise, the flex, I can think of 10 things to add to your list. (Size, Weight, Chassis Plastic Quality, Battery Latch, Lid Latch, etc, etc, etc. All these things that have declined in quality are directly due to the fact that these machines that used to use only the most expensive grade A part, are now built with only the cheapest grade material. The price of PC parts have declined, but quality cost money. Plastic is plastic, and steel is steel. There's low grade plastic, and low grade steel, and if you don't have money you have to buy low grade everything. The quality decline of these machines are not internal hardware related they are mostly on the external, such as the plastic and steel that harbors the unit, these commodities do not decline in price regardless of how cheap PC parts becomes. Grade A plastic will still cost the same, and grade A steel will still cost the same. This where we are seeing the biggest impact on the new Thinkpad builds.

This is happening across the board, and it's not just Lenovo. Even the customer service department is outsourced, I just had an argument with a customer service agent last week over some issue I had with one of my brand new Thinkpads. The guy was a wannabe graphics designer, and insisted that he knew what he was talking about, and kept telling me that he does graphics design on the side of his telemarketing job and that he was an expert on all these graphics related, and that I was an amateur and had no idea what I was talking. This is the kind of service you are now dealing with.

[pianowizard]

There are still quite a few "expensive" laptops. Some of these are expensive because, as pointed out above, they are relatively challenging to design and/or manufacture. Many of the super-light-and-thin laptops fall into this category (e.g. the T420s and the Sony Z2), and these laptops may actually not be built any better than cheaper laptops, since the extra cost goes into the design and the manufacturing process, rather than into the material. On the other hand, some of the expensive laptops currently on the market aren't particularly thin or light or stylish. In fact they are quite bulky and often ugly, e.g. the Dell Precisions, the Dell Latitude E6220 (which is very ugly IMO), and HP's workstation-class Elitebooks. I haven't owned any of these myself but based on my limited exposure and on what I have read, these appear to use truly top-notch material. Not sure if they really can withstand more abuse, but in terms of fit and finish, these are indeed better than most cheaper laptops. Panasonic's business-rugged laptops are even more expensive, and I believe their high costs are due to both better designs and better material.

I don't see how debating T420 versus T420s, or accepting a lower standard of service helps.

I am obviously in the minority here, but I do accept a lower standard now than I used to when I paid more. Except for the handful of pricey laptops that are still sold (e.g. those mentioned in the previous paragraph), the vast majority of today's laptops are pretty much intended to be disposable.

[dr_st]

The best way to describe the quality issue is if you put a mint condition T61 next to a brand new T420, you would think the T61 is a newer laptop.

I find this particular comparison difficult to agree with. Maybe it's because I never liked the T61 (I find them the most repulsive and badly designed laptops in Thinkpad history). I can't tell you exactly which plastics they used then and which they use now, and which kind is better than the other, so I guess I can take your word for it. Although if you look at Lenovo's Tabook/Ltwbook documents, they will state that the base materials have not changed (they are still Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic). But maybe there are different grades of CFRP, I don't know.

Granted the T410/420 series has not been around long enough to see how the materials hold with time, but so far it doesn't seem to be worse than the T6x series. Some of the things on your list I may agree with, but not all. Hinges on T61 are terrible and the lid starts to wobble like crazy after about 1 year of normal use. Size and weight wise the T410 and esp. T420 are significantly superior to the clumsy and heavy T61. Are you sure you want the T61 as the gold standard of Thinkpad quality?

[Kaze22]

The T420 is MASSIVE. When I first saw it I swear i thought it was a W520.
The T61 when placed side by side to a T420, is actually smaller. I don't know how the T420 got bigger since all the internal components should be smaller than 4 years ago.
The Tablet Laptops have not changed, I agree but then again, the Tablets have not dropped in price.
They are still expensive luxury laptops.

My new X220T is the same material as my old Tablet. So yes that part is true.

But man, has the T420 changed. They changed the Matte finish lid, it used to be made of some special material that allowed for better Wireless penetration. If you look at the old T61 or T60, you'll notice that the matte finish actually has small sparkling dust like particles in it.
The bottom baseplate has been replaced by GIJOE plastic the stuff they use to make MacDonald kids meal toys.
It used to be made of a highgrade material that was very similar to metal. The X301 actually used a metal backplate with matte paint over it.
The new hinges are gigantic compared to the old ones, and etc.

Oh and the fingerprint readers. How can I forget about that.
The old Thinkpads had the most regal looking fingerprint readers on any laptop. They had shiny steel bevels, and a sophisticated dark brown tinted glass overlay. They looked like something Batman would use.
The new Fingerprint readers look like something you get free from a CrackJack Box. Batman would not approve.

I wish I had a picture of the old reader vs the new reader. If anything says it all, its the fingerprint readers, the old ones looked like it was made in Sweden, the new one looks like it was made by the cheapest manufacturer in China. The fingerprint reader says it all.

[Ibthink]

Hm? I don´t think there is big difference in the chassis material. The T420 uses a Carbon-Fiber-Reinforced bottom and a Glass-Fiber/Carbon-Fiber-Reinforced top with a magnesium roll-cage in the bottom. The difference in the case is not that big (you can see that in this videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek1XMQdVlZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xxMJRVjVRc

[Kaze22]

I had a T420 side by side with my old T61.
Big difference. T420 is bigger bulkier, bigger metal hinges, bigger gap on the LCD bezel, they replaced the baseplate material with the same plastic as the palmrest material, used to be the baseplate was a matte black finish, now its just regular plastic. All in all it feels cheaper.
Those videos are useless for comparison, you need to physically have the two side by side to compare.

X220t on the other hand still retains all the old Think pad material even the baseplate is high quality.

Coincidentally the T420S has the smaller hinges, and magically the baseplate is back to the old matte finish material. Hmmmmm...did Lenovo purposely design the T420 to be lower quality?

[dr_st]

You must have been looking at a different laptop or you have skewed perception. T420's width and depth is the same as a T61 (in fact it's less deep with a similarly sized battery, and it is much thinner than a T61. No matter how you look at it, it's a smaller, thinner, lighter and better looking machine. The hinges are beefier on the T420 for sure, maybe this created the illusion of it being "massive" as you say?

[pianowizard]

You must have been looking at a different laptop or you have skewed perception. T420's width and depth is the same as a T61 (in fact it's less deep with a similarly sized battery, and it is much thinner than a T61.

I bet he was comparing a 4:3 T61 with the T420.

Like you, I think the widescreen T61 was among the ugliest Thinkpads ever!

[wolfman]

The T420 is MASSIVE. When I first saw it I swear i thought it was a W520.

Having carried a W520 for work for a while... compared to my T420 (which replaced a T410 - I personally like both of these machines) to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen "T420, you're no W520" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senator,_y ... ck_Kennedy).

My W520 is noticeably bigger than the T420. Let's not even get into the 170 watt adapter vs. the 65 watt adapter...

[dxps26]

wow, this has really snowballed into a nostalgia fueled debate!

In related news, i spoke to 3 different people today. first off, the sales dept. based in bangalore were not useful to me at all, since they handled only web-based sales. i asked the operator to tell me who to speak to, and he pushed me onto warranty dept.
the warranty dept. was also nonplussed at my cries for justice. for them, the laptop could only be repaired again. i was redirected again to Atlanta GA, and finally the person on the line broke the news that i simply could not get a refund. having admitted defeat, i asked what can be done, and the person in-charge asked me to re-send the machine to be diagnosed again. so tomorrow, the laptop goes out again to be worked upon by unqualified people who cannot see obvious physical problems.
the operator assured that this time(this time?? why not every time) the machine will be looked over by an engineer, and if necessary, a replacement machine will be sent to me.

its not the quality of plastics, CFRP vs. Rubberized metal debate that bothers me, it is this circus that makes me want to burn the laptop and forget i invested $1365 into a pile of toxic ash. give me the CFRP lids and GI-JOE plastic anyday, as long as you can back it up with support.

[ajkula66]

wow, this has really snowballed into a nostalgia fueled debate!

so tomorrow, the laptop goes out again to be worked upon by unqualified people who cannot see obvious physical problems.
the operator assured that this time(this time?? why not every time) the machine will be looked over by an engineer, and if necessary, a replacement machine will be sent to me.

its not the quality of plastics, CFRP vs. Rubberized metal debate that bothers me, it is this circus that makes me want to burn the laptop and forget i invested $1365 into a pile of toxic ash. give me the CFRP lids and GI-JOE plastic anyday, as long as you can back it up with support.

In all fairness, Atlanta center was there in the IBM days, and most of the people one deals with over there are *very* qualified.

If you push hard enough, presuming that your T420 turns out to be a real lemon, you might get it replaced.

Support...OMG...that is next to non-existent nowadays in any industry, I'm sorry to say...and no, I don't think it's right, or that it gives Lenovo - or anyone else for that fact - the right to treat their customers unfairly...

Good luck.

[Kaze22]

give me the CFRP lids and GI-JOE plastic anyday, as long as you can back it up with support.

Just so you feel better my expensive W520 also has the GIJOE plastic. Yes, it uses the same build as the T420.
But I still love it.

What are you gonna do?

[vinuneuro]

Make a thread in Lenovo's forum, and with the same thread title. There are Lenovo employees there to help resolve these customer service issues correctly, and they actually do.

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-a ... _ThinkPads

[AIX]

I don't think my T60 has better quality than my T420s, nor my T41 has; the bottom baseplate of T420s is magnesium alloy, top is H CFRP. I can even see that "sparkling dust like particles" on the top lid cover. Yes, the T420s' fingerprint reader looks cheaper than the fingerprint of T60 but it never miss a read - so, as functionality I consider it better.

[dxps26]

Make a thread in Lenovo's forum, and with the same thread title. There are Lenovo employees there to help resolve these customer service issues correctly, and they actually do.

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-a ... _ThinkPads

thanks for the idea. I made a post last night, and got some sympathy, but little else. shiiping the laptop back to the depot tomorrow. i will be attaching a few notes to the machine describing the issues, so that the engineer (hopefully) can look into the problems.

[dxps26]

Made a quick video to show the problem areas before the system ships out tomorrow.

http://youtu.be/s8EoETbLvTY

[mdclow]

If you purchased with a credit card perhaps you consider requesting a charge back from your credit card company?

[Kaze22]

That flex in the keyboard is not right.

[dxps26]

Mdclow, I may have to end up trying to go that route if Lenovo fails to replace my machine. It is obvious that the system is permanently flawed, and I don't want to get stuck in a months-long negotiation for my money's worth. I don't know if Bank of America has the kind of customer protection that Amex has.

[dxps26]

Somebody mentioned the Sony Z series. Truly wonderful screens and SSD RAID paired with a horror of a keyboard.

[djlukasek]

The T420 is now considered a lower end Thinkpad now, if you wanted to impress, then you should have gone with the T420s. The built quality between the T420 and the T420s are night and day.

Does the same apply to T520 ? T520s is not available here though

[lophiomys]

Hi dxps26,

Full ACK. That is outrageous bad quality (service and hardware) for such
an expensive machine and extra service plans.

Great video on Youtube. IMO thats the right way to go.
Instead of talking to useless sales reps, invest your time in
documenting the problem to the public, e.g. some newspaper
and a consumer protection organizations.
With this you have a good chance, that Lenovo will become pro-active
and put in efforts to solve it for you ASAP.

Some years ago, I had to made similar, unpleasant experiences with Thinkpads
under warranty and to me the behavior of Lenovo is just unacceptable.

[sysiphus]

I'm sorry to hear that the original poster has had so many troubles.

I would absolutely agree that today's T-series feels very cheap next to, say, a T60. Both T60 machines I had (14" 4:3) had fantastic build quality, the keyboards were flex-free, the plastics felt high-end, and the metal-reinforced lid helped the unit feel solid and secure. By contrast, the T520 I had felt light and hollow, the keyboard had (minimal) flex, and the plastics were clearly cheaper. The T60 also was a more costly machine, and it's no shock that the money went somewhere with regard to the quality of the machine. Beyond that, consider that the competition (HP Elitebook, Dell Precision) offer high-end IPS displays, while Lenovo takes a pass (save the X220).

However: it is easy to idealize the past. The T4x series, which seems to tie the T60 for most-favored-T-series in many circles, had serious engineering flaws (Northbridge, GPU issues), and cost even more. The 14" T60 had shockingly bad displays (though I'd love to get a 4:3 SXGA+ display of any sort new today), and the cooling on the T60p was barely adequate.

I do wish I could go out and buy the equivalent of a T60p today--it's just not there, at least from Lenovo. Blame it on the corporate shift (the T60/4:3 T61 was the last IBM-designed T-series), blame it on cutting costs, some combination of the two...whatever. Like it or not, the high-end mainstream laptop is anything but common today, at least in what's readily available in the US market. (The Dell Precisions aren't fabulous either--just ask an M4600 owner how they feel about the display bezel, and the M4400 was notorious for inadequate cooling to the point of throttling.) Still, today's T-series is still way ahead of the average consumer-grade machine. I may pick up a (cut-cost T520 again after Ivy Bridge machines hit the market, just because I miss the user-servicability and still-above-the-average keyboard as I sit here using a Macbook Air.

The OP got bit by a lemon, and I'm sorry to hear it. You ought to have gotten better, and you still may yet be disappointed by what a "perfect-to-spec" current T-series is like. However, for what they cost, and compared to the competition, it's still a solid deal.

[dxps26]

YUP, EASYSERVE SCREWS UP ONCE AGAIN.

installed fingerprint reader, but not the bluetooth daugtherboard that goes under the palmrest. wonderful.

failed to see that the screw holding down the palmrest onto the mag-alloy rollcage is stripped, and is loose again.

'fixed' keyboard rattle by shoving a couple of wires between the keyboard and the Rollcage. modern technology, folks!!

enjoy the circus once again.

This poor screw has been turned about so many times, the head looks chewed off. As per the works manual, Lenovo is supposed to use Fresh Screws every time a repair work is done.
This is besides the fact that the screw shows free vertical movement, a sureshot indicator that the threads in the Mag-alloy Rollcage have been stripped off due to excessive torque applied (JUST LOOK AT THAT SCREW HEAD!!!)


http://i42.tinypic.com/zoi3ab.jpg

how to fix keyboards, apparently.

http://i40.tinypic.com/107jk8p.jpg


(for those who dont know, the Keyboard unit is a CRU, so i don't void any warranties by removing it.)