Buying advice: X61s vs T60/T61

[pxa270]

Dear fellow ThinkPad fans. After a few years in laptop wilderness I'm ready to go back to Black. I'm in the market for either an X61s or a 14-inch 4:3 T60 or T61, but I can't make up my mind between them. Here are my current pros and cons, and I'm looking for some input/experience to see if I missed anything

T61(p)
+ best specs
- 4:3 SXGA+ are rare (I don't want widescreen or XGA) and most have nVidia boards with elevated risk of failure

T60(p)
+ no known design (board/chip) defects AFAIK
+ slightly prettier design than T61 (symmetric bezel)
- weaker specs, many have 32-bit Core Duo, while I'll probably like to run 64-bit at some point (I think a CPU upgrade is pretty easy?)

X61s
+ design (X40 is my favorite TP ever, this seems pretty close)
- XGA resolution

As can be seen, I'm mostly torn between the nice compact form factor of the X and the high-res goodness of the T. A few questions that might help me decide:

1. How do the keyboards of these 3 compare? I think the X61s is the same as the X60s, which I used for a little while and liked a lot (it was firmer and more clicky than my X40 kb). I never typed on a T60 or T61.

2. How much do the fan runs when idle?

3. Are there any known design flaws in the T60 that I missed?

Thank you!

(personal TP history: 240, 600X, T22, A31p, X40, Edge-13)

[pianowizard]

I suspect the best laptop for you would be a T61 with Intel graphics and SXGA+ (very hard to find but they exist), a 6-cell battery, an X-Series charger (lighter than the T-Series one), and the optical drive replaced with a travel bezel. I used to have a T42 and ran it on an X-Series charger for years without any issue.

You said you dislike widescreen. If that's simply because you find widescreen Thinkpads ugly, have you checked out the Z61t? It's a surprisingly good-looking Thinkpad and the 1440x900 resolution is not bad. The non-titanium version is about half a pound lighter than the 14.1" T6*. It sort of fills the big gap between the X and T series.

[pxa270]

It's not so much a dislike of widescreen, but a desire to get one last good 4:3. Everything in the foreseeable future has widescreen, so I'll end up with one at some point anyway (probably an X220/X230 or future hi-res variant).

I really love the X40 form factor, and I think I pretty much know what I'll get with an X61s. Which makes me simultaneously want and not want it. (I'm still using my X40 every day, typing on it right now.)

I haven't owned a T after the T20 series (didn't care for it much). I think I've read enough to want a T60/T61. Just like a confirmation if the keyboard is as good as the X6x. I've looked for an Intel SXGA+ T61 for a while now without much luck; I'd probably have to get a XGA and upgrade the panel myself, not sure if I'm up to it. I think I can live with a SXGA+ Core Duo T60, if no other cons come up.

[dr_st]

Getting a T60 with Core 2 Duo (64 bit) is not a problem - there's a ton of them on the market right now. The problem is that these machines are forever limited to 3GB RAM, which makes the advantages of 64bit moot. They are also limited to SATA1 speeds (T61/X61 can be unlocked to SATA2), although this is arguably a smaller drawback.

Pianowizard's suggestion for a T61 SXGA+ Intel board unit is probably the best option if you don't want to build your own frankenpad. You may be hunting for a while for one of those.

If you are willing to build your own, your options suddenly become much more interesting:

Option 1: 14" 4:3 T61 base with a 14" SXGA+ T60 lid - both saves you from having to hunt for the rare Intel/SXGA+ combo, and gets you a very pretty symmetric screen machine. Max out the CPU and RAM, and you've got yourself a machine that will be good for a few years to come.

Option 2: 12" X61s custom-fitted with a SXGA+ IPS screen from an X6x Tablet (assuming you can handle the SXGA+ resolution at 12.1"). Also gets you a much better quality screen.

[pxa270]

Option 1: 14" 4:3 T61 base with a 14" SXGA+ T60 lid - both saves you from having to hunt for the rare Intel/SXGA+ combo, and gets you a very pretty symmetric screen machine. Max out the CPU and RAM, and you've got yourself a machine that will be good for a few years to come.

Interesting option. Do the grooves on the base and the tongues on the lid actually fit together?
Also, from what I've seen, most are selling panels only. Getting a T60 panel+lid probably means getting an entire (defective) T60. Another con: many T60 still have the IBM logo, and a combination IBM logo on the lid and ThinkPad logo on the base seems like bad aesthetics.

Option 2: 12" X61s custom-fitted with a SXGA+ IPS screen from an X6x Tablet (assuming you can handle the SXGA+ resolution at 12.1"). Also gets you a much better quality screen.

This would be great if possible. But I thought the SXGA+ mod was only possible on the non-s X61? (And even that seems too difficult for me to do succesfully.)

I'm leaning towards a standard maxed out 1.8Ghz X61s now. On 12", I don't mind XGA that much (I just don't want XGA on 14"). But there's still the curiosity about the more recent 14" T that makes me want one. I used to have a T22 that didn't impress me at all (especially next to a 600X), but I heard the T4x and T6x were built much better.

Can anyone comment on the keyboard of the T6x compared to the X6x and T2x? I'll only consider one if it's significantly better than the T2x. (600X is probably too high a bar for any modern laptop.

[dr_st]

Interesting option. Do the grooves on the base and the tongues on the lid actually fit together?

Yes, in fact it's been done by some people on the forums.

Another con: many T60 still have the IBM logo, and a combination IBM logo on the lid and ThinkPad logo on the base seems like bad aesthetics.

The logos are just stickers and are completely interchangeable. You can put whatever you want.

This would be great if possible. But I thought the SXGA+ mod was only possible on the non-s X61? (And even that seems too difficult for me to do succesfully.)

A quick search found a number of posts on the boards discussing the mod being applied specifically to the X61s. Maybe I missed something though. Not an easy mod to do, for sure.

Can anyone comment on the keyboard of the T6x compared to the X6x and T2x? I'll only consider one if it's significantly better than the T2x. (600X is probably too high a bar for any modern laptop.

I never owned a T2x, and only briefly played with a T23, on which the keyboard struck me as so-so (but maybe my memory is deceiving me).

Having extensively played with T4x and T6x NMB keyboards - I can say that the T6x keyboard is great, T4x is a bit better still. Chicony keyboards may not be as good. X6x keyboard's feel is similar to that of a T6x to me.

[pianowizard]

A quick search found a number of posts on the boards discussing the mod being applied specifically to the X61s. Maybe I missed something though. Not an easy mod to do, for sure.

My understanding is that the SXGA+ panel plus the special ribbon are just a tad too thick for the UltraLight X60s/61s display assemblies, but they barely fit in the non-UltraLight assemblies. So it's doable for non-UL X60s/61s but it's definitely one of the more difficult mods that people on this forum have done. I wouldn't recommend it.

pxa270, have you considered getting a Panasonic Toughbook CF-Y4, CF-Y5 or CF-Y7? These have 14.1" 1400x1050 and an internal optical drive, and weigh between 3.37 lbs (for non-WWAN models) and 3.55 lbs (for WWAN models). The Y4 is cheaper and runs quieter while the Y5 is noticeably faster, has better build quality, and its HDD is much easier to replace. I just won a Y7 on eBay for $280 shipped and can't wait to find out how it compares to the Y4 and Y5. The Y7 has one obvious advantage over the other two: it uses a SATA HDD. These Y-Series Toughbooks give you T60 features and quality but not the shoulder/back aches associated with carrying a T60. The keyboards aren't as good as the Thinkpads' but I don't mind at all.

[wackyD]

It's not so much a dislike of widescreen, but a desire to get one last good 4:3. Everything in the foreseeable future has widescreen, so I'll end up with one at some point anyway (probably an X220/X230 or future hi-res variant).

I really love the X40 form factor, and I think I pretty much know what I'll get with an X61s. Which makes me simultaneously want and not want it. (I'm still using my X40 every day, typing on it right now.)

I haven't owned a T after the T20 series (didn't care for it much). I think I've read enough to want a T60/T61. Just like a confirmation if the keyboard is as good as the X6x. I've looked for an Intel SXGA+ T61 for a while now without much luck; I'd probably have to get a XGA and upgrade the panel myself, not sure if I'm up to it. I think I can live with a SXGA+ Core Duo T60, if no other cons come up.

My stable currently includes an X60s, an X61 and a widescreen T61. I also have a few T60's lying around that I am working to refurb for a mission group I work with.

I like the responsiveness of the keyboards on all of these machines. They are not as firm feeling as my former collection of A22's (my primary old TP benchmark).

Even with Arctic Silver, clean fans and reduced wireless output, I can still get the temps up on both x-series machines when downloading/uploading large files, while updating software and browsing online. I do have the processor at normal voltages and allow it to run at adaptive on battery and on A/C. I had it up to 70 degrees C last night uploading a few gigs of pcitures from a recent vacation while downloading windows updates and surfing. Since it is a regular X61 with a 2GHz processor, the heat makes sense. The T61W has the same processor (by number, socket vs BGA of course).

The only way I can get the T61W (intel) up to the mid 60s is to encode video for a few hours.

Similarly, any of the intel based 4:3 T60s I have worked on have run very cool - even when foolishly used in my lap. The ATI based T60's show hotter GPU temps in basic tasks, but generally not painful. A T60p should show up today and I'll try to give additional feedback.

After playing with the 4:3 T60's and working on the T61W, I think I would be a happy camper with a 4:3 T61, possibly frankenpadded with a SVGA+ screen or lid from a T60.

Between TuuS and BobA, I would think you could get that pulled together fairly easily, along with a handful of other folks that could do it for you.



For fan noise, I set up a tpfancontrol that has the fan on most all the time, though always slowly and only running fast when the temp gets high. I have gotten so used to having a quiet fan, that it is noticeable when the fan comes on a the relatively slow 3 speed setting. And that is typically not often at average tasks.

That said, my quiet home systems make my company issued Toshiba unbearable.


While I will not be giving up my X series machines, should I have to start from scratch, I would be inclined to go for the 4:3 T61, with an upgraded screen or even just XGA - you might find it is a reasonable size to live with if you are used to the X40.

Good luck!


Daniel

P.S. I would certainly like to borrow an X61 with the upgraded screen - just not yet bold enough to convert one of mine.

[pxa270]

Thanks for all the tips so far. They seem to be making things both easier and harder for me to decide.

pxa270, have you considered getting a Panasonic Toughbook CF-Y4, CF-Y5 or CF-Y7?

I haven't and I won't.
I'm on and off other brands all the time (and probably will get others besides this one), but this is one for keeps, so it must be ThinkPad

Between TuuS and BobA, I would think you could get that pulled together fairly easily, along with a handful of other folks that could do it for you.

I was actually really tempted by this one. But in the end, I decided that XGA in 14" is a deal breaker.

Anyway, the responses haven't really narrowed down my choices. So I think I'll just wait for a while, and see which of these models comes along in good condition at the right price. As I said, making things both easier and harder

[pianowizard]

I'm on and off other brands all the time (and probably will get others besides this one), but this is one for keeps, so it must be ThinkPad

Well then do what I suggested above to minimize the weight of the T61. While still much heavier than an X61s, it's certainly portable. On this forum I am notorious for hating to carry laptops over 4 lbs. However, there was a half-year period when the lightest laptop I had was a 14.1" T42 modded to have 1600x1200. I did exactly what I suggested above and I survived that half year just fine.

Anyway, if you plan on buying other laptops besides this T61, be sure to give the Toughbook Y Series a try. I have had 45 Thinkpads and the Y5 trumps them all!

[pxa270]

Update: my plan of wait and see if something nice comes along paid off nicely. I picked up a barely used X61s (1.8Ghz L7700!) locally for a nice €150. It has 1GB RAM, 80GB HDD, but those are of course trivial to change (I'm planning to upgrade to 4GB Ram + 500GB Seagate Momentus XT hybrid, already installed Middleton's BIOS).

I'm still in bliss about the condition of the machine for this price. The keyboard has no shine at all, the shell looks barely touched, and the 8-cell battery is still at full capacity with 20 load cycles. I don't like the protrusion of the big battery, so I'll probably buy a cheap 4-cell as well.

The only downside is still the XGA, which of course I knew all along. But this one should easily serve me well for another 2 years, when I can make one big leap to super-hires displays, and super fast and efficient Broadwell/Skylake CPUs.

I'm very happy so far