ThinkPad production returns to Japan

[yak]

From the Verge:

As the ThinkPad gears up for its 20th anniversary later this year, Lenovo is planning to move some of the legendary laptop line's production back to Japan.

Read the full article...

[Shadowku]

Can we expect better quality thinkpads if they move to fullscale production in Japan?

[Puppy]

Does it mean that the legendary keyboard is back ?

[yak]

Does it mean that the legendary keyboard is back ?

You wish...

It's probably more of an image move than anything else.

[Shadowku]

I guess it will depend on where the parts come from and if the factories in Japan will have any influence on that.

The actual design of the thinkpads won't change either.. and I'm not happy with the new keyboards of the T430/T430s.

[ThinkRob]

Can we expect better quality thinkpads if they move to fullscale production in Japan?

No, because country of origin doesn't dictate quality like that.

I do, however, expect a perception of better quality ThinkPads.

It sounds like they're doing it for logistics reasons more than anything else, although I expect that import fees/taxes are also a consideration.

There's also no word on whether or not they're going to produce them there for US distribution. Keep in mind, back in the early 90s when ThinkPads were made in Japan they were also made in Mexico, with a large chunk of the latter being the ones sold here in the US. (See above: logistics.)

[khtse]

Probably just one or two top of the line or limited edition model. It doesn't make sense in terms of cost to move production back to japan. Country of Origin really doesn't mean much to quality. What matter are the design, and the time and money the company is will to spend in quality control. Apple, Lenovo, and Dell products are all made in China, but you can clearly notice the quality difference.

[pianowizard]

I do, however, expect a perception of better quality ThinkPads.

Indeed, much (though not all) of the supposed decline in Thinkpad quality is psychological. I experienced this firsthand when I acquired my first Lenovo-era Thinkpad, an X60s. As soon as it came in, I scrutinized it thoroughly for like half an hour to check for flexes and squeaks and unevenness and gaps. I found some of these issues and concluded that as soon as the brand was owned by an obscure Chinese company, Thinkpad quality went south. But guess what, just a couple weeks later, I got a mint-condition X40 and when I subjected it to the same level of scrutiny, I found just as many issues! Before getting that X60s, I had owned dozens of IBM Thinkpads but never bothered to closely examine their build quality because IBM was such a legendary brand name that I had just assumed that they were perfect. Other than build quality, certain aspects of Thinkpads have indeed declined though (overall screen quality, keyboard type and layout, design aesthetics, customer support, advantages over other brands, etc.) , which is why I said "not all" of the decline was imagined.

However, I also believe that much of Thinkpads' supposed superiority over other brands is psychological. Back in the 1990s, Thinkpads actually were several notches better than other brands, but in recent years, real differences among the various brands have virtually disappeared. The myth that Thinkpads are still better than other brands is perpetuated by this fairly widespread phenomenon: when a Thinkpad has a problem, people tend to think of it as an isolated incident, but when a Dell has the exact same issue, people would say "All Dells are garbage!" There was a striking illustration of this bias about 5 years ago when there were several reports of Dell and Sony laptops exploding at airports. Lots of people here jumped at the opportunity to blast those brands, only to learn several days later that many Thinkpads were exploding as well! In my opinion, nowadays the single most reliable predictor of quality is the price of a laptop, not brand or even business-class versus consumer-class. In other words, you get what you pay for, which makes perfect sense. On the other hand, if you can't live without the trackpoint, then of course Thinkpad remains the king of laptops, but other than that, all brands are now equivalent. By contrast, I am not "married to" the trackpoint and so 9 out of the 10 laptops I bought in the last two years were non-Thinkpads, and that sole Thinkpad (an X32 with a dead screen) was bought because of its integrated parallel port, not because of its trackpoint.

[RealBlackStuff]

that sole Thinkpad (an X32 with a dead screen) was bought because of its integrated parallel port, not because of its trackpoint.

I would have much rather had that X31 or X32 with a useful serial port, parallel ports are sooooo yesterday!

[pianowizard]

I would have much rather had that X31 or X32 with a useful serial port, parallel ports are sooooo yesterday!

If you are thinking of using parallel ports as printer ports, then I agree they are soooooo 20th century. But I am using my X32's parallel port to send a TTL pulse (generated with a Labview-based custom software) to a piece of equipment in my lab, very different from what you probably had in mind. I believe serial ports can't handle TTL outputs well.

BTW, this X32 doesn't feel any higher quality than the 9 non-Thinkpads I bought in the last couple years. In addition, the factory-installed bloatware makes it feel really slow.

[dr_st]

So you finally got an X32, pianowizard, even if not a fully functional one. Nice!

I like the X32, but I agree that it (nor the X30/X31 which share the design) does not give one the feel of superb quality. Somewhat thick and heavy for the size, with substantial amounts of play in the battery and in the hard drive cover, they feel a bit clumsy. They are also surprisingly fragile, especially if you open them up to transfer/upgrade parts. Keyboard bezels crack routinely. LCD front bezels easily break if you're not very careful, and quite a few of them (including one I had) seem to develop a "no POST" syndrome, which is usually due to some bad caps (as described in a few other threads).

They do have a few things which back in the day could be big selling points compared to other ultraportables, Thinkpads or not: 6-cell battery, an optional second battery, wide compatibility with docking stations, and higher performance of the X32 at least, due to standard voltage CPUs. But today, with so many faster, lighter laptops with long battery lives - these selling points are no longer relevant, and what remains is things which are mostly gone from laptops now, such as a native parallel port.

[ThinkRob]

Other than build quality, certain aspects of Thinkpads have indeed declined though (overall screen quality, keyboard type and layout, design aesthetics, customer support, advantages over other brands, etc.) , which is why I said "not all" of the decline was imagined.

I did much the same thing re: IBM vs. Lenovo, and I too figured out that both companies produced flawed machines.

Regarding the decline, I'd disagree about the screens actually. With the exception of the very brief period in which IDTech was alive and kicking, ThinkPad screens haven't been anything special. I don't think the ones in 2005-2012 models are any worse than those in the 1993-2004 ones (if anything, they're better now that passive displays aren't really made anymore...)

Keyboards... oh boy. Well, that's one heck of a subjective thing! I do think that a lot of the reputation is undeserved, although I can certainly confirm that the deeper throw does tend to make them feel better at least to me.

You're dead-on about the comparison to other brands though. Really the important difference nowadays is "business class vs. consumer class", not ThinkPad vs. EliteBook or EliteBook vs. Latitude, etc.

My preference for ThinkPads is for two main reasons:

1) I have plenty of spare parts.

2) I've had the best success with them when running Linux and FreeBSD (my two operating systems of choice). Other laptop lines are certainly supported, but IBM and Lenovo have a pretty good history of having sold laptops with sane hardware designs which (at least for recent models) are not too far from being Intel reference designs.

I have a couple other minor reasons (I like the appearance more than other laptops' looks, TrackPoint, etc.) but those are the two big ones.

If I could find a vendor that sold easy-to-maintain laptops with good OSS support that used, say, ARM instead of x86 I probably wouldn't own any ThinkPads by now. (Same for PowerPC, but sadly the only option there is old Apple machines...)

[ajkula66]

Regarding the decline, I'd disagree about the screens actually. With the exception of the very brief period in which IDTech was alive and kicking, ThinkPad screens haven't been anything special. I don't think the ones in 2005-2012 models are any worse than those in the 1993-2004 ones (if anything, they're better now that passive displays aren't really made anymore...)

I'm with PW on this one...it was Lenovo who brought us the atrocities shipped on X30* series, along with Samsung WUXGAs on T61p and W500 which were OMG horrendous. And the rest of the *00 series apart from well-known LG 15.4" WSXGA+ panel was really bad IMO.

As for Japan-built machines...anyone who feels like finding out what proper QC looks like on the inside of a laptop should open up a ToughBook...

Will Lenovo be able to mirror that? I don't know.

And as long as they keep up with the current keyboard layout, I really don't care.

[pianowizard]

Regarding the decline, I'd disagree about the screens actually. With the exception of the very brief period in which IDTech was alive and kicking, ThinkPad screens haven't been anything special. I don't think the ones in 2005-2012 models are any worse than those in the 1993-2004 ones (if anything, they're better now that passive displays aren't really made anymore...)

The widespread use of IPS screens on 15" IBM Thinkpads was just one of the reasons I said screen quality declined after IBM. Many of Lenovo's Thinkpads used *the* absolute worst panels available at the time. Granted, these panels were still better than those used on IBM Thinkpads of the early 1990s, but those early IBM laptop screens weren't the worst screens available at that time. ajkula66 mentioned several notoriously awful Lenovo Thinkpad screens, but the worst one I have seen was the R500's WXGA screen. I have seen two in two different stores, and OMG both were worse than all other laptops on display, by light years. I am glad that Lenovo seems to have started to value screen quality (e.g. offering IPS for the X220 and X230), but for a while they obviously didn't understand that the screen is the most important component of a computer -- it's the part we interact with the most. At both stores, I stood there for a while to observe how much people cared for those R500s. Not surprisingly, everyone took a quick glance at them and went straight for the next laptop.

Keyboards... oh boy. Well, that's one heck of a subjective thing! I do think that a lot of the reputation is undeserved, although I can certainly confirm that the deeper throw does tend to make them feel better at least to me.

I personally don't think the change from traditional to chiclet is a problem. Chiclet does feel a bit weird but I don't think it affects my typing speed at all. Last week, I replaced one of my desktops' keyboard with a chiclet one and the very first thing I did on it (i.e. even before trying to get used to this unfamiliar keyboard) was trying a few online typing tests. I averaged 85 words per minute, exactly the same as when I did the same tests on conventional desktop keyboards. But changing the layout of the other keys (Home, End, Del, arrows, F key gaps, etc. etc.) is highly disruptive and Lenovo doesn't understand that.

You're dead-on about the comparison to other brands though. Really the important difference nowadays is "business class vs. consumer class", not ThinkPad vs. EliteBook or EliteBook vs. Latitude, etc.

That's actually not what I meant. I tend to believe that "business class" versus "consumer class" per se doesn't matter much. Ultimately, it is price that is most correlated with quality, though there are plenty of exceptions. But of course, on average, business-class laptops are pricier than consumer-class ones, and so on average, the former have higher quality than the latter.

As for Japan-built machines...anyone who feels like finding out what proper QC looks like on the inside of a laptop should open up a ToughBook...

Yes, I too think that the main impact of producing Thinkpads in Japan would be better quality check. Most of the other things we have discussed (design, screen choice, customer support, etc.) won't change.

[kittyjessica]

I can't help but think that this is a good move, not just for Lenovo but also for it's Japanese manufacturing partners, while I realise that it makes little difference where a product is assembled these days but I do feel that this will help peoples perception of the quality, if that makes sense. I make no bones about it, I would rather have bought a British, United States, Japan or Mexican built, recent ThinkPad but if that's the way the cookie crumbles, so be it.

I've had people buy lesser laptops assembled in the UK, EU or US over Lenovo's products due the made in china label, many of these laptops were assembled from some of the worst UNIWIN/ECS components (module laptops kits) ever seen, laptops with next to no battery life, C grade AU optics panels and very inefficient cooling.

I truly thought the decline in quality was mostly psychological and my X61T seemed to confirm this, but sadly when I bought myself a T400 I really did notice a sharp drop in quality (especially in the wrist rest, drive cover and USB ports) when compared to my rock solid, been around the block T23 and 600 ThinkPads, I'm just hoping that my new T430 will be as solid and serviceable as my X61T, T23, 600 have all been in the same role.

I love my western made gear, I make no bones about it, from my Unicomp and Cherry keyboards to my IBM Power and Apple Ireland workstations and would love to see more companies build here (in the UK and the US especially) and it's a shame that more don't.

[bill bolton]

when I bought myself a T400 I really did notice a sharp drop in quality (especially in the wrist rest, drive cover and USB ports) when compared to my rock solid, been around the block T23 and 600 ThinkPads

Did you also notice the sharp drop off in price?

Vendors generally aim to supply at price points that the market will buy at, and that changes over time. The market on the whole nowadays will simply not pay the prices that are necessary for the cost-base that arises from manufacturing in Western nations.

The outcomes of that are entirely predictable.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[kittyjessica]

Did you also notice the sharp drop off in price?

Vendors generally aim to supply at price points that the market will buy at, and that changes over time. The market on the whole nowadays will simply not pay the prices that are necessary for the cost-base that arises from manufacturing in Western nations.

The outcomes of that are entirely predictable.

Cheers,

Bill B.

I noticed a decrease in price but then again I also noticed the decrease in component prices, so the question is how much of this decrease could have been due to component prices vs labour. I would have thought that the number of labour intensive stages would have been reduced by now, I mean back in 86, NeXT had a automated factory, so is it such a far stretch to think that Lenovo could have implemented something similar. Granted Labour and the EU didn't help the state of manufacturing in the United Kingdom and this is not taking in to account government policy, but it would make it possible at least, I would have thought.

Let's face it, the ThinkPad will never appeal to the lesser, price oriented, "value" end of the market and I would have thought that the professional would be prepared to pay that little more for something that feels substantial, not that I'm saying that my T400 doesn't feel substantial but it doesn't feel that right, if that make sense.

I'm not picking Lenovo out here, I really I'm not, if anything I think they have done much better than most, much better than Apple (since the Intel move) in my experience.

Sorry if this is a bit rambling, been burning the candle at both ends.

[lead_org]

the new ThinkPad X1 Carbon 20th anniversary model (500 will be built) is made in Japan.

[lophiomys]

interesting, are there any pictures of it already available?
Will it be different from the "normal" X1 Carbon? (Edit1: I wouldn't want to call it a Thinkpad, SCNR.)

[Radioguy]

If you Google it, some news comes up with some pics as well.

It literally comes packaged as a Bento box with chopsticks.

[Ibthink]

Lenovo has just opened their new factory in North Carolina, which will produce Think-products in the future: http://news.lenovo.com/article_display. ... le_id=1691

[ajkula66]

Lenovo has just opened their new factory in North Carolina, which will produce Think-products in the future: http://news.lenovo.com/article_display. ... le_id=1691

An excellent marketing move on Lenovo's end.

115 jobs. Nice. It would've been even nicer had they told us how many of these were *new* jobs.