Classic legacy TPs

[futurethinkpadowner2]

My brain is overloaded with the overwhelming numbers of older IBM Thinkpads. I am enjoying reading and watching as many videos and reading about the IBM Thinkpads prior to Lenovo taking the helm. I would be willing to spend between 100.00 to 150.00 or so not much more. I will be installing Linux. Looking at all the typical places Ebay thinkpad depot, etc..People like the T/X60 and 61s pretty good. I just would like any comments to help this future Thinkpad owner. Thanks
Stu

[Medessec]

Welcome to the forums!

If you're looking to actually use the machine-you'll probably be looking at the T30, or T4x series. But by far the best and most interesting legacy Thinkpads in my opinion are the 760 and 770.

The 760 was the first to feature the "Ultrabay" system, flipping the keyboard up revealed an interchangeable Hard Drive bay and Battery bay, and an "Ultrabay" which could accommodate a CD drive, Floppy drive, or second battery. 760s are extremely commonplace, cropping up every once and awhile on ebay. Nice ones are hard to come by... took me awhile to piece together a nice one. 760s can also be a bit of a pain to work with first off-you need to boot floppies with them and installing a Linux OS I imagine could bring some troubles.

The 770 was the first Thinkpad and probably one of the first laptops to use USB. Because of this-the 770 by itself is a pretty handy machine, with Win 2000 or XP on it(which 770X and 770Zs can run pretty fine despite their age) they'll instantly pick up most USB hardware. Installing Linux on a 770 would be much more of a treat because of the much more capable hardware- Even the earliest 770 has a 233 MHz Pentium I at worst and they can boot CDs off the bat.

600s are a penny a piece-everyone has one. Except me Thinkpad 600 is the T-series' root ancestor. Those are pretty capable machines too.

T2x and T30 are legendarily reliable, solid built machines. I had a T30 in that was an absolute cosmetic wreck-cracks and blemishes everywhere, and there were keys not registering and a booting error. Turns out there was a huge lasagna spill-the keyboard was far from salvageable, and some had gotten on the motherboard underneath. Cleaned it all up with alcohol, installed a spare keyboard and the machine was 100% ready to suffer life again. The T4x are a tad bit more fragile, particularly the T43 with the no longer passively cooled graphics chips.

Another legacy Thinkpad you might take interest in are the A-series, A2x and A3x. I haven't had the chance to touch one yet, but the A31/p is one of the most sought after old Thinkpads.

There's also the G-series... but, please don't buy one, look up pictures and stats first and judge for yourself if you want to get one. The G-series are hit-n-miss with a lot of Thinkpadders.

Stay away from the R-series. Please.

[Adda]

The T4x are a tad bit more fragile, particularly the T43 with the no longer passively cooled graphics chips.

Stay away from the R-series. Please.

The T43 is the most reliable of all the T4x machines as GPU failures are rarer, the X300 doesn't get very hot at all, and later generation V3200's run cooler then FireGL T2's.
R50p's had a passively cooled FireGL T2, so did some Radeon 9000 equipped T4x's, bad choice as they run extremely hot, the long cooler might not be perfect, but a great improvement over passive cooling.
All Radeon 7500 T4x and R5x machines have no GPU cooling at all.

R5x series ThinkPads are as good as T4x series, same hardware, different chassis, there is more space inside the R series though, so they tend to run a bit cooler, if the same cooler is used.

A30/31's tend to burn their GPU's as they barely have any cooling, just a thermal pad on the underside of the PCB, same goes for T30's, and on top of that they tend to loose a memory socket.

I say, go for a T43 or R52 with intel graphics and pair it with the LXDE desktop environment.
Old Radeon GPU's are no longer supported by ATi/AMD so you have to use the opensource driver on linux, and I donno why, but the people writing that driver still haven't managed to get basic things like power management to work, useless for anything but pre Radeon 7500 GPU's, but they are failure prone.

[Medessec]

R5x series ThinkPads are as good as T4x series, same hardware, different chassis, there is more space inside the R series though, so they tend to run a bit cooler, if the same cooler is used.

I would have to agree on the R5x, being a pretty nice playground for T4x/R5x parting and modding. However- he inquired about legacy Thinkpads... for me, the R3x and R4x come to mind, which are horrid machines. The R3x I would argue is possibly the worst of all the Thinkpads, because they're not even worth the time to peel apart.

I wasn't sure the T2 was hotter running than the V3200... but whatever one you rally with, they end up taking some wild abuse, because if you use your T42p/43p for daily tasks, the demands of modern web-content and media put the chips through a constant gym workout they weren't designed to endure. Because they're Thinkpads, both stick it out, but I've heard more sob stories of the V3200 coming undone on T43s rather than the T2s, but I'll take your word for it. I've only been doing research on T43s lately...

[Adda]

I would have to agree on the R5x, being a pretty nice playground for T4x/R5x parting and modding. However- he inquired about legacy Thinkpads... for me, the R3x and R4x come to mind, which are horrid machines. The R3x I would argue is possibly the worst of all the Thinkpads, because they're not even worth the time to peel apart.

I agree completely stay away form R3x and R4x, they where made by Acer.

I wasn't sure the T2 was hotter running than the V3200... but whatever one you rally with, they end up taking some wild abuse, because if you use your T42p/43p for daily tasks, the demands of modern web-content and media put the chips through a constant gym workout they weren't designed to endure. Because they're Thinkpads, both stick it out, but I've heard more sob stories of the V3200 coming undone on T43s rather than the T2s, but I'll take your word for it. I've only been doing research on T43s lately...

This thread explains it:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107720

Last post in this thread, explains the solution in a more simple way:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=111794

IF the heatspeader problem with FGL T2 GPU's was fixed, they might run cooler then V3200's with the same mod, who knows.

Edit: With IBM_ECW's GPU tweaking features and CPU undervolting, you can make the R9600, T2, X300 and V3200 run very cool indeed, if combined with the cooler mod, don't expect temps much over ~70C, normal temps around 45-55C, no problemo!
You need 128MB of video memory for Flash acceleration.

[Adda]

Oh one more thing, many modern Linux distros require PAE, the oldest ThinkPads with PAE are the T43, R52, X41, Z60, in other words, Pentium M with DDR2.

[Adda]

It seems I might have been wrong about power management for old ATi GPU's on Linux.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ATI

I HAVE to try this, if this does indeed work, my T43p will have many more years of goodness left.

[Adda]

It does indeed seem to work, my V3200 just switched powerplay mode in a Lubuntu live session using the following command:

echo low > /sys/class/drm/card0/device/power_profile

[pianowizard]

However- he inquired about legacy Thinkpads... for me, the R3x and R4x come to mind

When I think "legacy", I think even older, like the 240, 600 and 570 series. But it doesn't matter what we think. The OP is thinking of something much newer:

"I would be willing to spend between 100.00 to 150.00 or so not much more. I will be installing Linux. Looking at all the typical places Ebay thinkpad depot, etc..People like the T/X60 and 61s pretty good."

The T60, X60 and X61s were all very good, though they were not IBM Thinkpads. If you want IBM Thinkpads with DDR2 RAM, you need to look at the T43, X41, R52.

[futurethinkpadowner2]

I am very impressed with the overwhelming responses to my question! You all all awesome! My birthday is soon and Im asking for an older TP. I am hooked even tho I havenot one yet in my possession. I will keep all informed! Thanks
Stu

[futurethinkpadowner2]

I have found a TP 770 in nice condition. I dont think it has an ethernet port.

[futurethinkpadowner2]

I have found a TP 770 in nice condition. I dont think it has an ethernet port.

[Adda]

What will you be using your future ThinkPad for? if you plan on browsing the web, a 770 will make your life seem way too short.

[Medessec]

Yeah- The 770 is an interesting machine to play with, but if you plan to actually use it as your main machine, I wouldn't recommend it. The graphics chip has no native driver in Windows NT installations(Windows 2000, XP) and even if you find luck getting full capabilities of the hardware with Linux, modern web-browsing and videos will always be really bogged down.

The 770 didn't feature an Ethernet port standard. You'll have to get a PC card that gives you one, or a USB to 10/100 Ethernet device.

[pianowizard]

I have found a TP 770 in nice condition.

If you can find a 770X or even 770Z with a 13.7" 1280x1024 screen, that would be a much better model to collect. They are newer and thus faster, but more importantly, the screen resolution is quite unique.

but if you plan to actually use it as your main machine, I wouldn't recommend it.

I agree. The fact that the OP wanted Ethernet suggests that s/he does plan to use it to get online, and it would be very painful to do this on any Pentium II or older machine. futurethinkpadowner2, please tell us more about how you intend to use this Thinkpad so we can give you better advice. If it does become your machine computer, even Pentium III, Pentium 4 or early Pentium M would be too dated, and you really should restrict your search to the T43, T43p, and R52. Avoid the X41, which is bogged down by its ultra slow hard drive. A maxed out T43p with a 15.0" 1600x1200 IPS screen would be ideal, and Medessec happens to have one for sale right now: http://67.214.227.38/~thinkpad/forum/vi ... 1&t=112069 . This particular unit isn't maxed out but you can easily upgrade the RAM yourself.

[ajkula66]

A maxed out T43p with a 15.0" 1600x1200 IPS screen would be ideal, and Medessec happens to have one for sale right now: http://67.214.227.38/~thinkpad/forum/vi ... 1&t=112069 . This particular unit isn't maxed out but you can easily upgrade the RAM yourself.

Agreed. That's probably the oldest usable machine amongst IBM's batch of ThinkPads...

OP could get away with a higher-end T42 (Radeon 9600 GPU) , but that would be the *really* oldest ThinkPad that could still serve as a daily driver.

[Neil]

Hey futurethinkpadowner2, take a look at the ThinkPad history page here:

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_History

Then tell us what features interest you most, and like others have said, what you plan on using it for, and we can give you more useful info to narrow your choices down even further.

[Medessec]

That Thinkpad History page is pretty handy. And I do agree that the T42/43 is pretty much the last "all-IBM" machines you can use as a daily driver without ripping your hair out all the time. They are also loads of fun as a Linux playground, most modern distros work like a charm and people have posted countless topics on here and articles all over the 'net about Linux on these laptops.

[ZaZ]

If I recall correctly and I may not, Lenovo took control during the T43, R52, Z60 and X31/X32 reign. You have to figure the T60 et al were on the board before Lenovo assumed command, which makes them to me the last "IBM" ThinkPads and a heck of a swan song.

[Medessec]

I know the transition between IBM to Lenovo was very vague, but most like to believe the T43 to be the last IBM machine. A lot of people who worked on the T4x still worked on the T6x, which is why the T6x takes a lot from it's predecessor. You'll also notice some X6x and T6x laptops have different badging- Some have the large traditional IBM badge and some have the newer silvery Thinkpad badging.

[ZaZ]

most like to believe the T43 to be the last IBM machine.

You determined this how? I certainly don't. Lenovo took the helm in the summer of '05 in the middle of the T43 run. It takes a long time to bring these to market and the T60 looks a heck of lot like the T43. To me the first way Lenovo made their presence known when the price of the T60 dropped like a rock half way through its run. When it was first released, the T60 was a $1,500 machine, but at the end of its time, it's was sub $1,000.

[Medessec]

You determined this how? I certainly don't. Lenovo took the helm in the summer of '05 in the middle of the T43 run.

Well... the T43 and the T60 do strongly relate in many ways, the 14"/15" model designs for one, the slim, elegant design, etc. But many people prefer the solid feel of the T43 much more than the T60. After working on both the T43 and T60, the T60 just feels a bit flimsy(compared with the T43) in some ways, especially when taken apart. It's held together with a lot less, and there are clear compromises here and there. Don't get me wrong, they're both fantastically engineered machines, but it just seems to me that Lenovo's influence was very apparent in the T60's design. Especially when they started introducing widescreen models of the T-series, and the absolutely bonkers price reductions you mentioned.

Regardless... you might be more right, and I was 12 in 2005, so I probably wouldn't be as qualified to talk about the transition. However- the issue here is that people usually ask to look for a finite point in the Thinkpad timeline when Thinkpads stopped being IBM and became Lenovo. Really-the transition wasn't instant at all.

[ZaZ]

many people prefer the solid feel of the T43 much more than the T60.

Personally, I'd say you have the backwards. The T4x had one of the better more recent ThinkPad keyboards and were slimmer, but less rigid, which lead to the GPU and Southbridge failures. The T60 were more stout and had no major problems like the T4x machines, though were not as slim and sexy.

[Cigarguy]

^^^ Bingo! Doesn't matter if the machine "feels" more solid when it is known to have a fault. The T60 series suffers no known faults which in my books trumps it over the T4x series. T61 was also a nice series but the Nvidia issues is a turn off for me. A T60/1 (Frankenpad) on the other hand is in my books almost the ultimate. Only thing that will beat it is the much dreamed for T50. Really like the T500 but not so much the T400 for some particular reason that I can't explain. For some particular reason I am always drawn back to my trusty T60s.

[RealBlackStuff]

From my experience I would also say that the T60 is the best and last of the true IBMohicans.
Frankenpadded, they are even better in performance.
T4x machines are way too flexible, which caused the earlier mentioned problems with GPU and Southbridge.
T43/T43p/R52 were the best of their range, because they could receive a SATA-mod (up to 1TB drives).
The IDE drives (max. 320GB) for the original T4x models are getting rare and expensive, and (strangely enough) have not been mentioned as a disadvantage...
T60 and up all use SATA hard drives.

Which now leads me to ask: who invented the Z6x-series, Lenovo?
Z60 is a SATA-enabled, wide-screened sister-model of the T43.
Z61 is wide-screened sister-model of the T60.
Both model numbers are decidedly wrong!
Probably Lenovo's fault.
I assume it was their start into making (ever crappier) widescreen laptops...

[ZaZ]

If you ask me the Z61, particularly with the titanium lid, is a handsome notebook. The Z61m review unit I had years ago was rock solid, if a bit heavy.

[pianowizard]

There are three ways to draw the line between the "IBM era" and the "Lenovo era":

1) The time when Lenovo officially took over the entire PC division. As Zaz mentioned, this happened in mid 2005, when the T43 was the current model.

2) The Lenovo web site has a tawbook.pdf file that lists all the "withdrawn IBM Thinkpads" and an ltwbook.pdf file that lists all "withdrawn Lenovo Thinkpad". The T41, X31 and X40 are the most recent Thinkpads listed in the former, whereas the latter starts with the same three models. In other words, from Lenovo's point of view, all Thinkpads started to "belong" to Lenovo in the fall of 2003.

3) I will just quote ZaZ: "It takes a long time to bring these to market and the T60 looks a heck of lot like the T43." In other words, since the T60 retained many of IBM's design principles, and since some of the people designing it had been IBM employees, it should still be considered an IBM Thinkpad.

I prefer using #2 as the IBM-to-Lenovo transition, because I find #3 too arbitrary (e.g. one could say "the T420 still looked a lot like an IBM Thinkpad and five former IBM employees contributed to its design, so the T420 was the last IBM Thinkpad"), and I don't know enough about what happened in the fall of 2003 for me to go with #1.

[Adda]

Just the stir the pot a little, I'll add another way to distinguish IBM from Lenovo.
It's a Lenovo if it caters to one OS above others, so when the windows keys where introduced, it became Lenovo.

And lets not forget the change from blue to silver eject buttons, and volume keys that where painted(!) silver.

[Cigarguy]

Personally I don't think anyone really knows during the long transition from IBM to Lenovo. I just go with the sticker on the lid. If it says "IBM Thinkpad" it's IBM. If it says "Lenovo Thinkpad", it's Lenovo's. To me it doesn't matter anyways. What matter is design philosophy and design characteristics. Up until the T410/T510/X201 series, as far as I'm concern, these were "classic" Thinkpads with regards to design and philosophy.

[Adda]

~Cigarguy

Yeah it's so easy to overcomplicate things, as long as it has the ThinkPadness it's a ThinkPad.

The first dramatic step away from ThinkPadness must be the the introduction of widescreens, then the loss of the clamshell design, then the loss of the keyboard, and finally the ruined trackpont.

I think the T410, T/W510, T520 and X201 still has enough to make it, after that, reliability problems seems to become too common.

But then they are pretty much the same design as the T400s (except X201).

Ah I keep remembering things, the W510 is definitely NOT without it's own problems.