A contrarian viewpoint

[JonathanGennick]

Much is made of Lenovo's drift away from the trackpoint as primary pointing device. I've been thinking about this lately while laptop-shopping. Lenovo should go "all in" on the touchpad. The world is changing. Touch and gesture are the future. Trying to straddle an ever-widening gap leads only to mediocrity as viewed from either side -- no one is happy.

The current, floating touchpad is a compromise solution that increases complexity, adds another breakable part, and probably will end up getting filled with grit and being difficult to clean. Touchpad users won't like the movement. Trackpoint users won't like the loss of the buttons. Just be done with all that. Go to a high-end touchpad like on the Apple machines, one that is fixed in place.

The pointing-stick is dead. Long live the pointing-stick.

I'm serious though! Lenovo should cut the tie and go all in. They would have a more reliable and durable machine that would appeal more strongly to a wider audience.

If they like, they can do one or two, very high-end and premium models having only trackpoints. The audience who really, really wants a trackpoint would pay the price. It's like in Apple-land. If you want discrete graphics you've got to bump up to the most expensive retina model. If I were Lenovo, I'd do the same for the trackpoint. Make it available in a high-end sku with one configuration and a high price.

I like my trackpoint very much. I'm using it now. But it is not the future, and the compromise solution on the current models is a negative, a reason to avoid them.

It's time to go through the grieving process, and then move on.

[ajkula66]

They can't do away with the TrackPoint completely. Yet.

I'm dead certain that they would love to, but will have to wait a couple of more generations for that to happen, since many users would rather accept a crippled TrackPoint than deal with none at all.

Which leaves us with one major question: once the TrackPoint is entirely removed, why would anyone buy ThinkPads in the first place?

Not a flame, but a serious question that one is.

I'm done with ThinkPads, but there's a lot of folks who are not as rigid as myself, and still on the fence. Does Lenovo really want them going to the competition? I wouldn't be surprised, but...what do I know anymore?

Mind you, HP's own rendition of trackpoint is *very* decent, especially when a "real" ThinkPad cap is mounted...and they still maintain physical buttons.

[JonathanGennick]

Which leaves us with one major question: once the TrackPoint is entirely removed, why would anyone buy ThinkPads in the first place?

I believe there are, or at least their *could be*, some very good reasons. I'm thinking of durability, of a subdued and timeless look, of durability, and yes I said that one twice , and of serviceability, and there is also the idea of having a nice keyboard.

I like the Trackpoint. However, I won't make it a single issue. I would be *more* likely to buy if there weren't that floating touchpad design. It might be ok-ish, but I'd rather just go all in.

Think about liquid spills. Just visit the forums on macrumors.com, and they are littered with users in a panic over spilled tea. I've had my share of coffee spills, and the Thinkpad has endured every one of them with grace. That means a lot to me. The working world is a messy place. Bumps and spills and similar things happen, and it means a lot to have a machine that I don't need to obsess over.

CRUs mean a lot to me too. The ability to remove my keyboard and rinse it in the sink after dousing it with Coca-Cola last. That was money in the bank on the day that it happened. Had I been using a Mac, I'd have had to panic and ship it off for a few days for service, and hope like heck it wasn't totally fried. Instead, I spent 15 minutes rinsing the keyboard out and putting in my spare one.

[ajkula66]

I believe there are, or at least their *could be*, some very good reasons. I'm thinking of durability, of a subdued and timeless look, of durability, and yes I said that one twice , and of serviceability, and there is also the idea of having a nice keyboard.

Test out the new keyboard and come back to me. I wasn't impressed by one on the T440p that I tried out, and found it to have a shorter travel than what was seen on the *30 series. Dell's Precision series has excellent keyboards, BTW.

"Timeless look" is gone IMO. As is serviceability for the most part.

Think about liquid spills. Just visit the forums on macrumors.com, and they are littered with users in a panic over spilled tea. I've had my share of coffee spills, and the Thinkpad has endured every one of them with grace. That means a lot to me. The working world is a messy place. Bumps and spills and similar things happen, and it means a lot to have a machine that I don't need to obsess over.

While I've never personally spilled anything on any of my laptops, I do understand the sentiment. Having said that, I'm fairly certain that competition (Dell and HP) is up to par in this respect.

CRUs mean a lot to me too. The ability to remove my keyboard and rinse it in the sink after dousing it with Coca-Cola last. That was money in the bank on the day that it happened. Had I been using a Mac, I'd have had to panic and ship it off for a few days for service, and hope like heck it wasn't totally fried. Instead, I spent 15 minutes rinsing the keyboard out and putting in my spare one.

And how many CRUs are really left?

Macs are nice, but they are consumer-grade machines with consumer-grade warranty. Those are the reasons that I rarely compare ThinkPad with them, and have yet to buy a (newer) Mac myself.

My business has gone to Panasonic and HP, and that's where I'm steering my clients towards as well.

[Adda]

Aww ajkula66 was faster then me, I agree with him completely.

When the things that make a Thinkpad are gone, there is no reason to call it a ThinkPad anymore, and there are no reasons to buy it rather then some other laptop.

Well unless you like the "brand" even though what made the brand worth anything is gone.

I don't care about "new" or "the direction things are going in" I care about usability, and gestures are just complicated hotkeys.

[pianowizard]

Much is made of Lenovo's drift away from the trackpoint as primary pointing device. I've been thinking about this lately while laptop-shopping. Lenovo should go "all in" on the touchpad.

As you may know, I am one of the handful of forum members who are as comfortable with the touchpad as we are with the trackpoint. In fact, I prefer the touchpad over the trackpoint. However, I didn't realize how counter-productive a super-sized touchpad can be until I bought my Sony Pro13 several weeks ago. Before getting this laptop, all my previous laptops had small touchpads, at most about 4 square inches in area, because they were all fairly old machines. This Sony is the first laptop I've used that has a huge touchpad, and I find my palm accidentally touching it quite often while typing. This causes the pointer to move randomly, and sometimes I even unintentionally click on something.

So, I am a touchpad fan as long as the touchpad is reasonably small. Enlarging the touchpad is a stupid trend. The proper way to go is to keep the touchpad small (so as not to interfere with typing) while speeding up the pointer, so that even a small swipe will get the pointer to move far. Making the touchpad super large in order to swipe less is a dumb idea. And yes, I also hate to have to depress the entire touchpad in order to click. Please bring back dedicated touchpad buttons!

While I've never personally spilled anything on any of my laptops, I do understand the sentiment. Having said that, I'm fairly certain that competition (Dell and HP) is up to par in this respect.

I agree. When Thinkpad fans compare their favorite Thinkpads with HP and Dell laptops, they tend to compare top-of-the-line Thinkpads (i.e. the T and X Series) with HP Pavilions and Dell Inspirons, which is obviously an extremely unfair comparison. Even a comparison with the HP Probooks and the Dell Latitudes is a bit unfair, because their best business laptops are the Elitebooks and Precisions. When comparing Thinkpads with Elitebooks and Precisions, the gap almost disappears, because the latter are also durable, serviceable, and have "timeless" professional looks. BTW, I once spilled a can of sticky orange juice onto an el cheapo HP Business netbook, which survived fabulously. What's more, this happened while I was on a plane, so I couldn't clean up the netbook right away, and it was soaked with orange juice for about 5 more hours.

[kony]

I was waiting for T440p, but when it was almost out I bought T430, just because T440p doesn't have trackpoint buttons and Express Card. I have worse display with T430 and a bit lower performance, but I would rather suffer that than lack of proper trackpoint buttons.

It doesn't matter how large or with how many gestures trackpad is, they are all crappy and unusable for me. Just like digital keyboards on smartphones - I only get a smartphone with a physical one, although they are all underperforming and cost more than their counterparts with no keyboard.

[JonathanGennick]

ajkula66, I take your points about the current lineup. I was more speaking in terms of what could be, not so much in terms of what is.

I remember when I first spent my own money on a Thinkpad. It was the high-end X30 model, with Bluetooth, which cost me fortune, because Bluetooth was only in the top model. I bought in partly because my company-issued A31 had proven so durable, and because I had been reading stories about the legendary service that IBM gave to Thinkpad users in need of parts or whatever. Those were the key things: durability and meaningful service. Could a brand story not be built around such things?

Ironically, it is now Apple that gives the best service. I was stunned when I sent in my phone for a warranty swap last fall. I phoned them. They gave me no hassle. A box showed up the next morning(!), which is costly where I live. I put the phone in the box and returned in the afternoon Fedex pickup. About 30 hours later, just after midnight the next day, I received an email saying that the replacement phone was being shipped. I figured I'd need to wait overnight, but it was at my door that morning(!). Stunning service, and not at all painful to get. Can HP or Dell or Lenovo match that? I doubt it.

My daughter lives in a region where there is an Apple Store. She's got an even easier time of it.

It's ironic, but Apple's got the fast service just plain nailed.

Anyway, it wasn't the Trackpoint that drew me to Thinkpads. It was robust build quality and fast and easy service when I needed it. And since I'm spending my own cash these days, I also want style and good looks.

[ajkula66]

Can HP or Dell or Lenovo match that? I doubt it.

Yes they can, and they do, as well as Panasonic. It's called NBD on-site when laptops are concerned. Those are the warranties that one should get for a business-grade laptop IMO, although the depot ones - at least when it comes to ThinkPads - have worked well for me in the past.

Anyway, it wasn't the Trackpoint that drew me to Thinkpads. It was robust build quality and fast and easy service when I needed it. And since I'm spending my own cash these days, I also want style and good looks.

Well, looks are a matter of one's personal preference so there's really nothing to debate in that respect.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the T440p that I sampled did not feel like a ThinkPad at all.

Happy shopping and good luck.

[Adda]

Ironically, it is now Apple that gives the best service. I was stunned when I sent in my phone for a warranty swap last fall. I phoned them. They gave me no hassle. A box showed up the next morning(!), which is costly where I live. I put the phone in the box and returned in the afternoon Fedex pickup. About 30 hours later, just after midnight the next day, I received an email saying that the replacement phone was being shipped. I figured I'd need to wait overnight, but it was at my door that morning(!). Stunning service, and not at all painful to get. Can HP or Dell or Lenovo match that? I doubt it.

My daughter lives in a region where there is an Apple Store. She's got an even easier time of it.

It's ironic, but Apple's got the fast service just plain nailed.

A friend of mine has a sister who owns a MacBook Air, after 1½ years of use, the SSD dies suddenly.
She contacts Apple care, and they say that they cannot replace parts that malfunction due to WEAR and TEAR?
Apple thinks that the lifespan of an SSD is a little as 1½ years...

This goes against Danish law and common sense.

[JonathanGennick]

I'm still of the opinion that Lenovo only loses by continuing to straddle. Holding on to the Trackpoint is an error. They should not anchor their brand to a specific implementation. Other attributes are more important.

[ajkula66]

Holding on to the Trackpoint is an error.

Maybe, but HP and Dell are doing the same thing on their business-grade machines...

They should not anchor their brand to a specific implementation.

The problem here is that they're not anchoring their (?) brand to anything at all, which is a fireproof way of creating mediocre products. Apple did the *exact opposite* and reaped a huge success.

Other attributes are more important.

Sounds plausible, but let me ask you this: at what point is ThinkPad no longer a ThinkPad in your opinion? What else do they need to remove from it?

[JonathanGennick]

Sounds plausible, but let me ask you this: at what point is ThinkPad no longer a ThinkPad in your opinion? What else do they need to remove from it?

I'm honestly not sure. I don't think I really want to frame the issue in quite those terms. The Trackpoint is iconic, but I'm willing to let it go. Preserve it's memory as a red dot over the letter "i".

I think my previous replies really say it all from my own viewpoint. Thinkpad as a brand to me meant robust laptops that could stand being knocked around in travel and work, and that were easily serviced at home -- for example, I could swap out a keyboard when it got cruddy, and I could (and do!) keep a spare keyboard on hand for just that reason. There was also the concept of getting fast and easy service when I called in for it, and by someone who would generally respect my level of tech knowledge and not run me through a script, or at least not too tedious of a script.

A business-first focus was part of it too. No gimmicks needed, though today I want good sound and video, because even a business traveler needs to be able to enjoy some downtime in a hotel room.

[ajkula66]

I'm honestly not sure. I don't think I really want to frame the issue in quite those terms.

Fair enough.

I think my previous replies really say it all from my own viewpoint. Thinkpad as a brand to me meant robust laptops that could stand being knocked around in travel and work, and that were easily serviced at home -- for example, I could swap out a keyboard when it got cruddy, and I could (and do!) keep a spare keyboard on hand for just that reason. There was also the concept of getting fast and easy service when I called in for it, and by someone who would generally respect my level of tech knowledge and not run me through a script, or at least not too tedious of a script.

A business-first focus was part of it too. No gimmicks needed, though today I want good sound and video, because even a business traveler needs to be able to enjoy some downtime in a hotel room.

Everything you've stated above describes any business-class notebook and the service level that is available for customers who purchase such an item nowadays.

Which again brings us to the fact that ThinkPads are not really special anymore, not in a meaningful sense anyway.

[BillMorrow]

FWIW..
don't like touchpads at all..
don't care for touchscreens much.. too prone to small inaccuracies when not exactly "on point" so to speak..
trackpoints are excellent but since my right thumb is kinda worn out joint wise a trackpoint is sometimes not the best solution..
a discrete wireless mouse is what i use most of the time when using a thinkpad but i always fall back to using a trackpoint..
one hand does it all without moving all over the place..

what makes a thinkpad a thinkpad is a trackpoint and the ability to "frankenpad" it when one wants..

and the easy ability to home service my thinkpads..

so chat on but there you have my humble opinion for whatever its worth..

[Q-Ball]

If they like, they can do one or two, very high-end and premium models having only trackpoints. The audience who really, really wants a trackpoint would pay the price.

Which is what we've been asking for all this time.
Sure, some people like that useless island keyboard and that counterproductive trackpad; there's nothing with giving them what they want.
Name it the R or Z series and be done with it.

And you've already gotten your wish.
Witness the new ThinkPad 11e:

[Summilux]

I'm done with ThinkPads, but there's a lot of folks who are not as rigid as myself, and still on the fence.

You may not be as rigid as me : I swore I'd never buy any Lenovo product, new laptop or smartphone, until they release a proper TP (i.e. never).

I believe there are, or at least their *could be*, some very good reasons. I'm thinking of durability, of a subdued and timeless look, of durability, and yes I said that one twice , and of serviceability, and there is also the idea of having a nice keyboard.

Ditto with Ajkula.

Durability? Other companies have improved, Lenovo has regressed, and people are no longer focused on that part anyway.

Looks? Ha ha. Once I got a remark regarding my "old" laptop. My T60 was merely a year old at a time where Macbooks weren't ubiquitous. And now everyone's used to Apple designs, even businessmen and government officials who are playing daily with their Iphones and Macbooks.

Serviceability? Non-business users don't want to deal with any remotely technical stuff (except for those having a geeky side), business users could make do with Dell or HP hardware. But in any case, the thinner it gets, the less serviceable it becomes.

Keyboard? No comment...

Any way you look at it, there's no Thinkpad appeal anymore. Of course, since they've been stripped of their most valuable assets. Compare this situation to 10 years ago, when you could easily tell apart a TP from almost all other laptops on the market. No other machine combined the durability, looks, functionality, serviceability, keyboard and trackpoint of a TP, save for the business-grade HP which came close.

From exceptional, TP have become plain, and are increasingly being irrelevant. That's the reality.
At this point, the only way Lenovo could make them special again would be by somehow merging them with mobiles... be it from a hardware perspective (Asus has already tried this approach) or a software one (think of a Canonical approach). Flexible/folding screens will bring up many possibilities in that regard. Expect a "Thinkpad Butterfly" à la Lenovo.
But even then, this won't bring back a proper keyboard and trackpoint. Sigh.

[Summilux]

Witness the new ThinkPad 11e:

Supposedly there's no trackpoint because it's an education model destined to children. But I don't buy that. If they wanted, they could have come up with a non-removeable "cap".

[sir_synthsalot]

I agree, Thinkpads are irrelevant nowadays. They stripped out just about all the features that made Thinkpads Thinkpads. Next they will change the colour to white or something.

I don't buy the common arguments people are making like changing market conditions and hardware being cheaper. What is really happening is Lenovo wants to follow and do what's safe rather than lead. Apple is a company that leads, and is able to sell premium laptops that are different from everyone else. Lenovo and the Thinkpad brand on the other hand went from having an excellent and unique product to fading into mediocrity. And some people are calling that progress.

[elray]

Lenovo should go "all in" on the touchpad. The world is changing. Touch and gesture are the future.
...

It's time to go through the grieving process, and then move on.

If Lenovo doesn't own up to its mistakes, and restore the mouse/touchpad/trackpoint buttons, as well as, preferably, a traditional keyboard option on models thick enough to support it, I will certainly be "moving on".

If I have to remove one finger from the keyboard for lack of a functional trackpoint and buttons, I will indeed, have a "gesture" for Lenovo.

I don't mind paying a premium to have a "classic" keyboard and trackpoint and removing the touchpad and palmrest - but I thought we already were, buying the flagship product.

Doesn't Lenovo market two consumer lines, Ideapad and Essential?

Who are these marketing and design loons with a massive case of Cupertino-envy who feel the need to fix what isn't broken?

[BillMorrow]

<sigh>
so many of the remarks here are true..
though I DID see at least two Lenovo thinkpads on the international space station while channel surfing and catching the NASA channel where a woman astronaut was giving a tour.. there they were, on arms bolted to a bulkhead.. looked like T500 or thereabouts series..
trackpoints HAVE to rule in space (zero gravity) situations..

but back to the thrust of this thread..

I have a really bright and beautiful h/p notebook but when I use it I use it with a mouse attached..
WHY have a palmrest that sports a device that sees your palm as a mouse movement..?

so I picked up a new netgear AP router and had an X300, T60, thinkpad android tablet and two iPads with keyboards on the kitchen table while setting this router up..
without a trackpoint on the thinkpads I would have had mice running all OVER the place..
well, ok, only two..

but I must say that if I am ever presented with a thinkpad with NO trackpoint that will truly be IT..

anyone want to buy a nice website..? low mileage but somewhat aged..? still functional though..

[laowai]

Ironically, it is now Apple that gives the best service. I was stunned when I sent in my phone for a warranty swap last fall. I phoned them. They gave me no hassle. A box showed up the next morning(!), which is costly where I live. I put the phone in the box and returned in the afternoon Fedex pickup. About 30 hours later, just after midnight the next day, I received an email saying that the replacement phone was being shipped. I figured I'd need to wait overnight, but it was at my door that morning(!). Stunning service, and not at all painful to get. Can HP or Dell or Lenovo match that? I doubt it.

My daughter lives in a region where there is an Apple Store. She's got an even easier time of it.

It's ironic, but Apple's got the fast service just plain nailed.

A friend of mine has a sister who owns a MacBook Air, after 1½ years of use, the SSD dies suddenly.
She contacts Apple care, and they say that they cannot replace parts that malfunction due to WEAR and TEAR?
Apple thinks that the lifespan of an SSD is a little as 1½ years...

This goes against Danish law and common sense.

See: Reasons I still refuse to bother with SSD. With a standard hard drive, I have a lot more space, I know when it's working, I know when it's failing, and when it finally does fail, I can more likely than not coax most~all the data out of it. With SSD... it's just gone.

[BillMorrow]

IRT SSD's..
should have one with TRIM implemented..
I understand this extends the life of an SSD..
what is an SSD anyway but a lot of flash memory in a small box(so to speak).. with many tweaks to make it work reliably all the while thinking it is a HDD..

[pkiff]

If I have to remove one finger from the keyboard for lack of a functional trackpoint and buttons, I will indeed, have a "gesture" for Lenovo.

Ha ha ha!

but I must say that if I am ever presented with a thinkpad with NO trackpoint that will truly be IT..anyone want to buy a nice website..? low mileage but somewhat aged..? still functional though..

Awwww, Bill! Please don't despair!
Lots of negativity here, and lots of it is well-deserved, I guess. Though I'm not sure things are quite as dire as some of you seem to think.

I'm still using the previous generation of Thinkpad, before the new keyboards were introduced, but I recently bought an external USB keyboard with TrackPoint in the new chiclet/island style. It's not such a terrible keyboard and it still has a Trackpoint. I prefer the old keyboard, but I would still consider the new keyboard to be an excellent implementation of the chiclet/island style, and I thnk they innovated when they made it (the smile profile at the bottom of each key, the attempt at coming up with alternate key placements)...it's not just innovation for innovation's sake, even if I prefer the old style.

Those who bemoan the lack of innovation in Lenovo I think are perhaps just not happy with the kind of innovation Lenovo is trying. Maybe I'm not happy with all their directions either, but IBM sold the Thinkpad line because it was in danger of becoming a loser as far as consumer lines go. They didn't sell it because it was on the verge of becoming the next Mac Apple iPayWhateverYouAsk series. Lenovo was bound to try to move the Thinkpad into consumer territory. And I thought that Lenovo's recent sales figures show that they have actually been successful at increasing their market share world-wide. Maybe the direction of the Thinkpads has not made everyone in these Forums happy, but I expect they have brought in more than enough new customers to fill the void all the same.

I'm one of those who sees the TrackPoint as necessary, and it is one of the primary reasons I like Thinkpads. I haven't tried the new button-less versions, but if they suck as bad as people say, then I bet Lenovo will come up with a better solution. They are definitely trying to innovate in the area: the pseudo-Trackpoint on the Tablet (Android and Win 8 ) keyboards are another example of them trying to find their way. I disagree with the OP and others who think that Lenovo should just cut ties with the TrackPoint altogether. I see no reason why they can't continue to have a mix, and why they won't be able to come up with some models that have an excellent integration of a new style TrackPoint (with or without a TrackPad or Touch Screen or whatever).

I also like Thinkpads because of the CRUs (Consumer Replaceable Units? errr... you can get lots of replacement parts!), as others have suggested. Unlike many competitors (including especially Apple products), a Thinkpad is designed to be easily opened up and modded by a user, and you can still find pieces and functional drivers for machines that are 10 years old. Try doing that with a Mac (Do you know ANYONE who is still running a Mac that is not compatible with OSX 10? And most people have also given up on machines that won't run 10.7+ as well. To Apple, these machines might as well be landfill now).

Phil.

[Adda]

I'm still using the previous generation of Thinkpad, before the new keyboards were introduced, but I recently bought an external USB keyboard with TrackPoint in the new chiclet/island style. It's not such a terrible keyboard and it still has a Trackpoint. I prefer the old keyboard, but I would still consider the new keyboard to be an excellent implementation of the chiclet/island style, and I thnk they innovated when they made it (the smile profile at the bottom of each key, the attempt at coming up with alternate key placements)...it's not just innovation for innovation's sake, even if I prefer the old style.

How many time does it have to get just a little worse then the previous generation, before you get fed up as well?

I also like Thinkpads because of the CRUs (Consumer Replaceable Units? errr... you can get lots of replacement parts!), as others have suggested. Unlike many competitors (including especially Apple products), a Thinkpad is designed to be easily opened up and modded by a user, and you can still find pieces and functional drivers for machines that are 10 years old. Try doing that with a Mac (Do you know ANYONE who is still running a Mac that is not compatible with OSX 10? And most people have also given up on machines that won't run 10.7+ as well. To Apple, these machines might as well be landfill now).

Phil.

Not as easy as it used to be, how many times does it have to get just a little worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5knRRHbBbk

Edit: I'm not going to reward a company for making products, that are not as good as the previous generation (by buying their stuff).

[pianowizard]

I thought that Lenovo's recent sales figures show that they have actually been successful at increasing their market share world-wide. Maybe the direction of the Thinkpads has not made everyone in these Forums happy, but I expect they have brought in more than enough new customers to fill the void all the same.

There are at least four reasons for these impressive sales figures, not all of which have to do with "the direction of the Thinkpads":

1) There is no doubt that on the whole, Lenovo has improved the looks of both Thinkpads and non-Thinkpad laptops, and many people do want to buy good-looking laptops.

2) Compared with its competitors, Lenovo has far better access to the most rapidly growing market in the world, namely, China. Had HP or Dell or Toshiba been based in China, they too would have impressive growth in sales.

3) Lenovo has benefited greatly from the Thinkpad name. The high quality of IBM Thinkpads made them the most revered laptop brand, but their high prices prevented them from selling very well. Lenovo managed to dramatically reduce the prices of Thinkpads by, for example, using cheaper material, spending less on quality check, reducing warranty durations and coverage, reducing profit margins, etc. Many people who had always wished they could afford Thinkpads began to buy them with a vengeance, including Thinkpad-branded devices that aren't really Thinkpads.

4) Finally, the ignorance of the general public. For the average consumer, it's easier to remember "Lenovo", "Dell", "HP" or "Toshiba" than to distinguish specific laptop lines such as "Thinkpad", "IdeaPad", "Inspiron", "Latitude", "Pavilion", "Elitebook", "Satellite", "Portege", etc. When they come across positive reviews of Lenovo Thinkpads, they tend to remember "Lenovo" but not "Thinkpads". Thus, at some point, consumers started to associate the reputation of Thinkpads with all laptops bearing the "Lenovo" badge. For about two years, I was fairly active on the NotebookReview sub-forum where people who know little about laptops seek recommendations from veterans. Even within such a short time span, I noticed a significant increase in the number of advice seekers saying "I have heard that Lenovo laptops are good, so please recommend one for me". Not surprisingly, the veterans would invariably jump in and inform them that "The Thinkpads are indeed good, but the regular Lenovos are nothing special".

I'm not going to reward a company for making products, that are not as good as the previous generation (by buying their stuff).

Same here. This is why I stopped supporting the Thinkpads after they went widescreen, and Dell's Latitudes after the first "E" generation.

[pkiff]

How many time does it have to get just a little worse then the previous generation, before you get fed up as well?[....]Not as easy as it used to be, how many times does it have to get just a little worse...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5knRRHbBbk

!! Well, I obviously have some things to learn about the new generation of Thinkpads, if that is now the norm for hard drive replacement! Maybe I'll get fed up sooner than I thought.

[JonathanGennick]

I also like Thinkpads because of the CRUs (Consumer Replaceable Units? errr... you can get lots of replacement parts!), as others have suggested. Unlike many competitors (including especially Apple products), a Thinkpad is designed to be easily opened up and modded by a user, and you can still find pieces and functional drivers for machines that are 10 years old.

CRUs and FRUs were a big draw to me as well. More than once I've been saved due the easy ability to keep a spare keyboard on hand. This advantage is fading though. The market wants stylish and thin machines, and the ability to open up a laptop for service isn't something that is thought about much at the time of purchase. (I'm speaking in broadly general terms here). Some of the newer Thinkpad models are also approaching the Macbook in terms of how easy they are to service. XD

[Ibthink]

Some of the newer Thinkpad models are also approaching the Macbook in terms of how easy they are to service. XD

Thats not true. Is there any ThinkPad with a glued down battery? Fully soldered RAM (apart from the X1 Carbon)? Non-standard SSDs? Or a screen that breaks if you try to swap it?

MBPs are impossible to service - MBAs are nearly as bad. To serve ThinkPads is easy - the newest ones also. Even if you consider X240/T440s more difficult to serve, it still easy, because after taking of the back-cover, you have access to everything. W540/T540p/L440/L540 still have the normal design with smaller back-door for hard-drive access, and the T440p is maybe the most easy to serve T-Series yet...

2) Compared with its competitors, Lenovo has far better access to the most rapidly growing market in the world, namely, China. Had HP or Dell or Toshiba been based in China, they too would have impressive growth in sales.

China isn´t that "rapidly growing anymore" it seems... http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 90962.html

[JonathanGennick]

Thats not true. Is there any ThinkPad with a glued down battery? Fully soldered RAM (apart from the X1 Carbon)? Non-standard SSDs? Or a screen that breaks if you try to swap it?

I did say "approaching". Less ability to service is the direction I see things moving. Does a non-glued down battery matter if I can't easily order a replacement? Does Lenovo make it easy to order an internal battery for, say, the T440s? Is one listed for sale on their website? I am not finding one.

I'll admit, my view is probably colored by the models I've been looking at. I hadn't been aware that the T440p and the W series retain their ease of service. I stand corrected on those.