Opinion on current ThinkPad trends for a feature story

[sriram00]

Hello all,

I am a contributor with Radio New Zealand and am working on a feature on e-waste and new trends in tech design where form is given precedence over function. ThinkPads have always been different, but they too are now joining the bandwagon of sealed batteries, soldered RAMs and parts that are not user-replaceable.

What do you all think of this as users? Does it matter to you if you can't gain access to the battery or RAM or swap the optical drive for an additional battery or storage disk? Are there any benefits with this design that you have encountered? What are the inconveniences you have come across with this kind of a set-up. Are you okay with having to give in your laptop for an extended period for a battery replacement? Do the advantages of sealed designs outnumber the disadvantages?

My story focuses on whether new products have shorter life-spans and durability. And whether their shorter life spans and more frequent changing/replacement cycles is increasing e-waste.

Please feel free to provide and discuss your inputs with the benefits or the inconveniences you have had to encounter with sealed designs.

I am still clinging on to the T42 (15 inch SXGA+ IPS), T60p (15 inch UXGA IPS) and an X60s.

For any of you wanting to know what Radio New Zealand is, here's a link to one of my previous stories and to the rest of the site.

http://thewireless.co.nz/themes/risk/ch ... ew-zealand

You could PM if you like, but ideally, would like your thoughts and discussions to be open to forum members. Your inputs would add a lot to my story.

Thank you all in advance.

sriram

[dr_st]

Nice project! Good luck with it.

Does it matter to you if you can't gain access to the battery or RAM or swap the optical drive for an additional battery or storage disk?

Most of the users on this forum, which is a computer enthusiast forum, probably do. I'd imagine the majority of the global user base does not, since most of them typically does not venture into such territories anyway.

Are there any benefits with this design that you have encountered?

Well, it allows the design to be slightly slimmer (which is a hot trend these days), and probably slightly cheaper as well. The tolerances may be a bit better as well - for example, not rattle/looseness which is sometimes exhibited with removable batteries / drive bays.

What are the inconveniences you have come across with this kind of a set-up.

Everything you mentioned (non-removable battery, no swappable drive bays, soldered RAM) can present an inconvenience for different users, and in different scenarios. However, I think they are not as crucial now as they were a few years ago. For example - the average laptop battery life is much better than it used to be, which diminishes the need to swap batteries. Optical drive usage has plunged, internal storage capacity has increased, and fast external storage can be connected via USB3/eSATA - which means the swappable drive bay is also less important. Soldered RAM is in most cases not an issue, if you get it maxed out during the time of the purchase, although sometimes becomes and issue down the road, when one may want to upgrade to more RAM that was available at the time of the system release.

Are you okay with having to give in your laptop for an extended period for a battery replacement?

Even though it is stupid to have to do so, personally I am not bothered so much by it, since I always have enough backup computers around to allow myself to go without one of them for a couple of weeks, for whatever reason.

Do the advantages of sealed designs outnumber the disadvantages?

In my opinion - no.

My story focuses on whether new products have shorter life-spans and durability. And whether their shorter life spans and more frequent changing/replacement cycles is increasing e-waste.

FWIW, I did not perceive reduced overall durability of electronics over the past decade / decade and a half. As far as shorter life-spans, it depends what you mean by it. There seems to be less of a trend to make new designs compatible with old ones - that's true. So many of the accessories you were using with your old laptop will not be compatible with the new one. This may lead to increased e-waste, but the question is - why are you replacing your old laptop with a new one to begin with?

I feel that is the key question. Is it because your old laptop broke? It may happen, but on average, as I said, I don't believe it happens more now than before. Is it because it no longer suits your needs performance-wise? That's even less likely, as in our day and age even 5-year old systems can still perform well and be usable for virtually any task. Or is it because it's trendy to upgrade your machine every 1-2 years, and with them being as cheap as they are, you can now afford it? My guess is that the last one is the more common cause.

So in my view - it's not the design trends that cause the increase in e-waste, but the usage and spending habits of people.

I am still clinging on to the T42 (15 inch SXGA+ IPS), T60p (15 inch UXGA IPS) and an X60s.

As do I, although not as primary systems anymore. The upgradability of these systems expanded their useful life to me for sure, although today's systems may live just as long without this upgradability.

[rkawakami]

I'd have to agree with dr_st about getting somewhat biased opinions from members of this forum for your story. A majority of the users here are tinkerers with their systems. That means we love having access to everything possible with our laptops. There's flexibility with being able to swap out several types of batteries if the desire is to have the lightest system or the longest run time. On long trips I've carried an extra battery or two. I don't think that I'd ever buy a laptop that I was not able to easily change out the battery. Hard drive? Memory? I could probably live with those restrictions, assuming it was possible to get to them by tearing down the system.

I have an Apple iPod Touch (well, actually two - 1st and 4th gen). The 1st gen I won in a contest. After using it for a couple of months I got hooked even though I loathe the fact that it's not very easy to change the battery. In a way, I fell victim to the Apple upgrade cycle. Many of the newer apps won't run with the older iOS and you can't update it. So I bought the 4th gen (used on eBay) simply because I wanted to continue running some apps. I didn't like the feeling that I was being forced into an upgrade so that's one of the reasons why I bought used instead of new; Apple was not going to get my money! (Yeah, I know... they are getting some whenever I pay $0.99 for an app.) The 4th gen's battery life is now only a few hours. I'll probably end up trying to change it myself given that there's plenty of tutorials on the net. Pay Apple to do it? At the moment, I don't know. The 1st gen? I still have it. I keep it on my desk at home plugged into an A31p (see below). It's main use is in running an app that monitors the home security cameras I have.

Getting back to Thinkpads... Operating system "improvements" and upgraded application programs typically mean that more and more memory is needed to maintain the same level of productivity. If one can't justify the expense to spec a new system with the maximum memory possible, waiting a couple of years allows the memory manufacturers to improve their designs and/or increase the density, all the while (generally) selling it for a lower cost. Having access to two (or more) memory slots means that the laptop can be upgraded and still be "useful". Soldered memory defeats this purpose and is something that I personally wouldn't want in a system.

Have a problem maintaining a good connection with your wireless card? Or maybe now it's too slow for your use? Has the industry moved ahead to some newer, faster protocol? Your X60s palmrest running a little bit too hot? Pop in the latest card and you can enjoy the progress that's been made. Industrious users around the net have even figured out a way to bypass the Thinkpad's "whitelist" of approved wireless cards. You wouldn't be able to easily do that if you had a sealed machine.

I like having the option to have an optical drive or a secondary hard drive in an Ultrabay. In fact for my home computer I use an A31p. It's ancient by today's standards but it has two Ultrabays, along with a nice 15" UXGA IPS screen (I see you are a fan of high resolution displays too). One Ultrabay I have loaded up with a second hard drive and the other I generally keep a DVD writer in it. At times I swap that out with another hard drive adapter when I have to back up my system or run diagnostics on a newly arrived hard drive.

I'm making a sweeping generalization here, but I think that most of the public does not look ahead and thinks about what will happen to their new toy when it is either not longer useful to them or it develops a problem. Back in the day of $2000 consumer laptops, people would probably spend the money to get it fixed if there was an issue. Or hang on to it for a little while longer before considering an upgrade (if only to justify/amortize the original expense). Today, with the same laptops priced for $400 or less, the public is starting to consider laptops and notebooks a "disposable" product, much like a transistor radio. It is becoming too expensive to pay a tech to troubleshoot and repair something that will cost almost as much as the original purchase price. The industry is helping this along by continuing to lower their costs using designs such as those you mentioned (sealed cases, no expandability, etc.). Maybe the public is helping this along by refusing to pay top dollar for a laptop/notebook I think that's one of the main causes for the increase in e-waste. It's up to the same public to increase their awareness of properly disposing electronics that are no longer needed, not just throwing them out in the garbage can. Occasionally schools in our area hold e-waste recycling/disposal events. The public can come and drop off their old computers, batteries, fluorescent bulbs, etc. Some hardware stores will also accept these items and properly dispose or recycle them.

Thinkpads have traditionally been considered business or enterprise class machines and therefore not something that the general public would consider buying. I personally have never purchased one new, and most likely never will. All of my systems (see .sig below) were bought off eBay and if they weren't already in running condition, have been restored to full operation or used/kept as spare parts. Recently I've been able to get a working T410 system (Windows 7 64 bit, 4GB, 320GB HD, DVD writer) for less than $170. In a small way I'm doing my part for recycling e-waste .

[sriram00]

Thank you dr_st, Ray. These are very valuable inputs and will lend good credence to my work. I have PMed you for some info.

And other forum members, do keep your inputs coming.

Thank you all.

[Medessec]

I'd just like to throw in here that I agree with most of the above... and there are extremely different views on technology. However... people can be easily convinced one way is better than the other, and I've seen people go from the classic American view to my personal view, numerous times, and very quickly.

I originally started out owning cheap Toshiba laptops as my main laptops to use. However... I love to tinker, and cheap Thinkpads were my usual favorite playtoy. But using both Thinkpads and the Toshibas, as well as other laptops around the house (Compaq/HP, Dell), and the Thinkpads, I eventually started using Thinkpads(the older ones, T43/T60/T61/T500) as my main laptops, and respecting their superior engineering and simple construction, making it easy for people to peel apart and change/modify/upgrade the insides.

A lot of my friends who went off to college like I did, got the typical brand new laptop from their parents, as a gift, to take with them for school. HP DV7s, Dell 15s, and Acer Aspires. Since then, most if not all have ran into numerous quality issues... the HP DV7 doing the worst. But the problems all were the same; the laptop runs hot under abuse, and the laptop isn't engineered to handle that long term... stepping on the laptop either top or bottom busts the screen, keys pop out and the mechanisms break, the motherboard shorts rendering the laptop useless, etc. Assortments of these problems hammer the laptops within a year of use.

So I present my friends with my laptops, running like champs for years on end with no outside help, and then some. Unique features not found on any other laptop(UltraBay, ThinkLight, TrackPoint) and slick, fairly slim(depending on the Thinkpad you buy), and solid feel. Picking up an HP or a glossy Dell designer laptop feels like you're picking up one of those cheap, plastic 10" tall trash cans from IKEA, that you can flex in your hands... picking up a Thinkpad feels like you're picking up something like the iron griller fittings that go on stoves, or those giant aluminum flashlights the cops use. It's solid, nothing rattles, and it just reinforces your trust in its build quality.

I've sold over 5 W500s to friends, and I may even sell a T60p to a friend of mine's Mom, who only does typing. They all had cheap, cutsy, bubbly, glossy laptops they bought from a Best Buy for $350. I sold the W500s to them for less than that, charger, Windows 7, and all. They are extremely pleased with them, and have pretty much been brought over to the dark side...(because Thinkpads are black? Get it?) Some of the friends I've sold to have even bought 2503 Advanced Docks, and other accessories such as UltraBay HDDs, UltraBay batteries, and Lenovo branded Webcams and Micee(mouses, dunno if the plural is different for computer equipment...)

But to sum up- people apparently have been trained and manipulated by modern marketing to continuously purchase... not just new laptops- but many different types of technological devices as well. Technology is moving so quickly, which is great and all... but if it means we have to buy a new laptop every 1-2 years and throw the old one in the garbage, then I don't know if we should do that. But it's what the companies want, because it means more money, more jobs, more on their end, basically. People will go down what they think is right, because most people just believe in wealth and bettering themselves. But some people are smarter than that, can understand the greater scheme of things, and don't have all opportunities to dump money into laptops at the moment(College students...!). Others are smarter as well, and those people can be sold my way, where you stick with an old machine that you can rely on to last. Because dr_st and rkawakami are both right. These Thinkpads run perfectly fine in today's world, and can even make good use of modern technological progress.

[elray]

As one who has ceased purchasing or recommending Thinkpads, I would hope that my "bias" as a member of this forum would be of greater concern to Lenovo than the sheep who continue to buy their product.

I don't object to the pursuit of thin-and-light, begetting sealed batteries, soldered ram and CPUs, and even six-row keyboards lacking real springs. On the plus side, we're starting, in some cases, to see higher resolution displays available - though quality thereof and preferably, a medium-resolution for older eyes, is still desired.

The only reason I have abandoned the company, in their pursuit of Apple, is the disaster that has become the buttonless clickpad nonsense, leading to the trackpointless "thinkpad" models.

I shudder to think, as this year I went four times this year alone, and nodded to Mom, "Yes, you should pay that much for an MBP...", but between Windows 8 and Lenovo, there is no reason left to resist.

[sriram00]

Thank you Elray, Medessec.

Medessec, your sum up about people getting trained to purchase... seems to be the root of all the findings I have come across so far. Thank you for putting it so well. I have PMed you for some info.

Elray, I have to agree with you here. I have been a ThinkPad user since the 600E. And have always been purchasing used machines and have found them to be extremely sturdy, reliable and long-lasting. As they age, they haven't been faultless, but I just replace the failed screen or fan or a weak battery, and they are good to go. However, I come across no new ThinkPad that I'd like to buy. In the course of my research, I spoke to big, bulk-level service technicians and even small hole-in-the-wall people who still custom-build Windows desktop PCs if you want. They all say that while you can hate Apple for their closed, sealed structure, they are the only ones who still make quality stuff with quality internal components that last long and are stable.

Currently, I am having a horrible experience with Lenovo for my T60p's fan. They sent me a wrong part and the only solution they offer is an 'escalation' of the situation. Thanks to forum members Johan and dr_st for pointing out the difference in part number.

My previous company had given me a 2010 Macbook Pro with the WXGA resolution. I never liked the glossy screen and the touchpad. And used to always file my stories in my T60p for the ergonomics. But going by reports of quality, I am now looking at a Macbook Pro retina in a couple of months. More so, considering a similarly-specced X240 or T440 or X1 costs way more than the rMBP 13, I do look back and smile at what have things come to.

[pkiff]

Like others in this thread, I like to tinker, and I like to open my machines, and replace parts myself. Some of it has nothing to do with efficiency - it's just fun for me sometimes, and I like to tinker and see how things work. But sometimes it serves practical, useful purposes as well.

I was a bit surprised and disappointed to discover the current trend towards sealed systems and more complicated disassembly in recent Thinkpads. I don't generally upgrade to a new laptop until there is a compelling performance issue that really cannot be addressed by simply upgrading components. So I hadn't noticed the trend until I started contemplating an upgrade to a more recent machine.

I have a couple stray thoughts I would add to what has already been said.

On Community
A "community" of tinkerers can sometimes become self-sustaining (like this one here on Thinkpads.com), but it requires a particular kind of hardware design to support such a community. I wonder if the community of laptop tinkerers will end up gradually shifting to some other system over the next decade or so. Maybe to another product or company, or maybe to some kind of open source hardware hacking model. Then again, maybe I'm underestimating the value of the Thinkpad "brand" and the degree to which the Thinkpad design attracts people (including the new designs!).

On Design and Thinness
Speaking of "design", that is something that plays a role here for sure. I actually found myself attracted to the design of the X1 Carbon and the new Helix machines. Both of these are part of the recent Thinkpad trend, and I assume they are hard to open and difficult to perform hardware hacks on, but they are also somewhat innovative and offer something more than just thin, smooth design lines. As others have suggested, the addition of accessories or need for internal upgrades are decreasing in part because of new ports and the disappearance of many media formats. I think the new designs also owe something to the popularity of the tablet as a personal consumer computing device - when you are used to holding a tablet in your hand, then fuller, thicker laptops become less attractive and you wonder why all your devices couldn't be so light and thin. And the thinness in particular makes disassembly and hardware hacking a challenge.

On Documentation, and the Culture of Documentation
One more note about why Thinkpads have been attractive to me over the years: the availability and preservation of documentation. Dissasembly instructions for almost every Thinkpad back to my first (purchased around 1990) are still available relatively easily on the web. People have preserved the original documentation provided by IBM and Lenovo continues to preserve some of the old IBM documents as well. This is pure gold to a tinkerer who stumbles across a machine from 10 or more years ago. This documentation didn't just arise out of nothing: it came from an early computer culture where it was expected that someone other than an IBM tech would need to open up your laptop and fix it, and that culture continued for decades. That kind of a culture doesn't disappear all at once, and who knows, maybe over the next several years Lenovo will attempt to find a way to cultivate that culture again.

Phil.

[RealBlackStuff]

Unfortunately Lenovo has NO sense of culture whatsoever!
And they also NEVER listen to what the public really wants!
As Phil mentioned, the Hardware Maintenance Manual (HMM) is/was one of the most useful items to keep these machines going.
UNTIL...
that bad day in 2012 when these new machines **30 started coming out: T430/T530/W430/W530/X230 and anything newer since.
All of a sudden: no more part/FRU numbers in their HMM, different layout, important info missing...
Typical eejit behavior.
Now you need to download not only a badly designed, incomplete HMM, but also an (for most people incomprehensible) list with just part numbers, (partly poor) descriptions and nothing else.
Some other eejit at Lenovo designated the name FRU BOM for them, which supposedly stands for Field Replaceable Unit Bill Of Materials,
but is most likely indicating: Blasted Out of their Minds.
And of course the machines described therein also leave a lot to be wished for...
Bad keyboard layout, almost useless touchpads, gawdawful displays, cheap cable connectors, the need for buying new chargers, etc.
Unless Lenovo drastically changes their behavior, they are fast coming down on a par with Acer.

[pkiff]

....the Hardware Maintenance Manual (HMM) is/was one of the most useful items to keep these machines going.
UNTIL...that bad day in 2012 when these new machines **30 started coming out: T430/T530/W430/W530/X230 and anything newer since.
All of a sudden: no more part/FRU numbers in their HMM, different layout, important info missing...

Really?!? That is so depressing to learn. I think some of the early Thinkpads actually shipped with a printed hard copy of the HMM - not just the user guide, but the actual full HMM.

[Ibthink]

....the Hardware Maintenance Manual (HMM) is/was one of the most useful items to keep these machines going.
UNTIL...that bad day in 2012 when these new machines **30 started coming out: T430/T530/W430/W530/X230 and anything newer since.
All of a sudden: no more part/FRU numbers in their HMM, different layout, important info missing...

Really?!? That is so depressing to learn. I think some of the early Thinkpads actually shipped with a printed hard copy of the HMM - not just the user guide, but the actual full HMM.

I really don´t know whats the problem there - the parts lists are still here, they are just seperated now from the HMM. They show more informations than before (for example, it is possible now to see directly which part is more used, or which part comes from which manufacturer. The HMM parts-lists did not show these informations, they only included the parts-nuber and the CRU information...). The new parts-lists are all listed here: http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/product ... ookup.page?

Just because it is a bit different then before doesn´t mean its worse...

[dr_st]

I really don´t know whats the problem there - the parts lists are still here, they are just seperated now from the HMM. They show more informations than before (for example, it is possible now to see directly which part is more used, or which part comes from which manufacturer. The HMM parts-lists did not show these informations, they only included the parts-nuber and the CRU information...). The new parts-lists are all listed here: http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/product ... ookup.page?

Yep, this is quite nice actually.

[RealBlackStuff]

Guess they must have realized how weird they are! Original name: http://download.lenovo.com/express/fruboms.html
Regardless, I think they are off their rocker!

What is a: Brazil HB95?
What is a: Marble Peak?

[Ibthink]

I guess Marble Peak is an Intel Codename (everthing with "Peak" is normaly an Intel wirelesscard) and Brasil HB95 (or "Foxconn Fenix Brazil HB95") seems to be a UMTS/WWAN module specifically for Braszil. I guess I made it through the first round of the quiz^^

[rkawakami]

In case you don't get the reference... the thread is drifting off topic. The OP is mainly concerned about e-waste, product lifespans and design decisions, not about the structure of the HMMs.

[sriram00]

That's okay everybody. Like Ray says, we have gone off topic. But then, us Thinkpadders aren't the exactly the epitome of normal. Do keep your inputs coming on e-waste, life-span and design, if any.

Happy weekend all.

[exTPfan]

There's considerable variation in how difficult it is to a repair a modern thin computer. For example, it's easy to open an X1 carbon and replace the keyboard, SSD, and battery (but not the RAM), whereas the Surface 3 really is glued shut.

Speaking for myself, I need a tall screen (and high quality keyboard and screen) for my work, so I plan to keep the computers in my signature running for ever (or until tall screens return).

[AIX]

The only reason I have abandoned the company, in their pursuit of Apple, is the disaster that has become the buttonless clickpad nonsense, leading to the trackpointless "thinkpad" models.

That's why I got a T430 instead of a T440p, one month ago; I've tested the buttonless trackpoint on a X240 and then I knew that is the end of an era. Not very happy with the T430's keyboard but the physical trackpoint buttons won me over T440p graphical power, even the only reason I got the new laptop was to have more graphical power for gaming than my T420s HD3000.

Unfortunately Lenovo has NO sense of culture whatsoever!

I fully concur with you, I couldn't have said it any better.

[kony]

even the only reason I got the new laptop was to have more graphical power for gaming than my T420s HD3000.

Why didn't you just buy eGPU?

[AIX]

even the only reason I got the new laptop was to have more graphical power for gaming than my T420s HD3000.

Why didn't you just buy eGPU?

That's because I'm gaming here and there and wanted to stay mobile.

[pkiff]

On Documentation, and the Culture of Documentation
One more note about why Thinkpads have been attractive to me over the years: the availability and preservation of documentation. Dissasembly instructions for almost every Thinkpad back to my first (purchased around 1990) are still available relatively easily on the web. [....] and who knows, maybe over the next several years Lenovo will attempt to find a way to cultivate that culture again.

This claim of mine was poorly timed. Just a day or two after I posted this, Lenovo changed their support website and generally removed drivers and support for Thinkpads older than 7 years or so. Maybe they don't expect their Thinkpads to last 10 years any longer.

For more sad details see this discussion over at the Lenovo Forums:
A change is coming - next chapter in e-support at Lenovo:
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Feedback-o ... -p/1532408

[sriram00]

On Documentation, and the Culture of Documentation
One more note about why Thinkpads have been attractive to me over the years: the availability and preservation of documentation. Dissasembly instructions for almost every Thinkpad back to my first (purchased around 1990) are still available relatively easily on the web. [....] and who knows, maybe over the next several years Lenovo will attempt to find a way to cultivate that culture again.

This claim of mine was poorly timed. Just a day or two after I posted this, Lenovo changed their support website and generally removed drivers and support for Thinkpads older than 7 years or so. Maybe they don't expect their Thinkpads to last 10 years any longer.

I understand. That's what my story is all about. Looks like the option for people who like to keep their stuff longer is to get a Mac, keep extending Applecare (if they allow anything beyond 3 years), and sell off their toolkit. Because while Lenovo offers warranties, getting them to honour it is getting to be a challenge.

The market for people who pay more for a quality machine that they take care of and make it last, resulting in a parallel market of quality used machines is long gone. Guess that's why IBM got out of the consumer PC business.

[Dekks]

That's okay everybody. Like Ray says, we have gone off topic. But then, us Thinkpadders aren't the exactly the epitome of normal. Do keep your inputs coming on e-waste, life-span and design, if any.

Happy weekend all.

as far as design, IMO its to reduce the lifespan of the kit so you buy more frequently, hence Lenovo's changes,
e-waste is another issue, design isn't really helping + plus many see dumping in Africa as a solution.

[bit_twiddler]

O.K., I have to chime in. I'm an old-timer. Back in the 70s I built my first machine out of
scrap parts being discarded from the local Univac plant. I still want my front panel back
that I had on my pdp-11/20. But, that's all in the distant past.

I got into Lenovo about 5 or 6 years ago, switching from HP. One of the main reasons why
I switched was that Thinkpads had a reputation for running Linux well, and, FWIW, I have
never been into Windows.

A major attraction for me was that I could, for the first time, use a laptop on board an airplane.
The HP touchpad never worked properly with Linux, and the pointing stick and integrated mouse
buttons was about as close to a heavenly joy as one gets in this life, because I no longer had to
plug in a mouse and make room for a mousepad to be functional.

The keyboard, too, was an immediate improvement on the HP. The display on the HP was better,
but, on balance, I was pleased to make the switch.

Then, some nitwits at Lenovo started fooling around with the keyboard. First, they messed up the
perfect keyboard on my T420 by downsizing the escape and delete keys, and, most recently they
eliminated the integrated mouse buttons. I'm not the only one to think that devolution has occurred.

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXa0XzNvuZU

But, there is more. A random walk of features is occurring at Lenovo. Look at the keyboard in this article
written by Peter Bright in Ars Technica:

http://arstechnica.com/staff/2014/01/st ... hem-worse/

Look closely, and you will see some very odd experimentation with the Home and End keys. The Caps Lock
key, which any self-respecting Unix/Linux person immediately swaps with Ctrl, is ... gone!

I would not say that a million monkeys came up with this keyboard layout. It's more like 3 or 4,
hanging out in basement with a few beers came up with it over the course of a weekend.

If I wanted to buy a machine with ram soldered to the motherboard, with the battery glued in place
to make the entire assembly 1mm thinner, and a little "self-destruct" mechanism inside straight from
Mission Impossible, I suspect that everyone on this blog would know where I would have to go.

Lenovo probably figures that it needs to reinvent itself as a "budget-priced Apple clone." But, what
they have forgotten is that workstation users are a breed unto themselves. Even as they have abandoned
their core market, HP, Dell, and even Toshiba are stepping in take it away from them.

Here's a report from about a year ago:
http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases/det ... pc-market/

This report shows that the workstation market is actually a stable market, unlike the rest of the PC
market. IMHO, that is because workstation (and other high-end laptop) users are not likely to move
to tablets anytime soon. For some users, a notebook computer with a good keyboard and display
is the perfect platform to get their work done. Perhaps that's why they are called WORKstations.

Perhaps at some point, components will shrink so that everything is "under the glass," so to speak,
and we will be able to buy workstations which look like tablets with detachable keyboards. But, we
are not there yet, just as many users prefer the Windows 7 desktop or some other operating system
to Windows 8.

I would not be surprised to see Lenovo's share of this market shrink in the years ahead. After all,
it's not like we don't have alternatives at this point.

[pianowizard]

One more note about why Thinkpads have been attractive to me over the years: the availability and preservation of documentation. Dissasembly instructions for almost every Thinkpad back to my first (purchased around 1990) are still available relatively easily on the web. [....] and who knows, maybe over the next several years Lenovo will attempt to find a way to cultivate that culture again.

Then I suppose you are also attracted to Dell laptops, because Dell's web site still has detailed disassembly instructions for most laptops dating back to the 1990s.

[Ibthink]

Then I suppose you are also attracted to Dell laptops, because Dell's web site still has detailed disassembly instructions for most laptops dating back to the 1990s.

Not really. I just took a look on their support site, you can select "Legacy Systems", but there are nearly no downloads/drivers available. And also no manuals, you will only get "Currently, there is no online documentation for your selected product. In certain cases, documentation is not available for products older than seven years.".

[pianowizard]

Not really. I just took a look on their support site, you can select "Legacy Systems", but there are nearly no downloads/drivers available.

I don't recognize any of the models listed under "Legacy Systems". I think those are extremely obscure laptops from the 80286 era. Heck, even the name "Dell" was obscure then! Click on "Inspiron" and "Latitude" instead. My 15-year-old Inspiron 7500 is still fully supported, and so is my first laptop, the Inspiron 8200 from 2001. We are talking the Inspirons, Dell's cheapest consumer-grade laptop series. How much support does Lenovo provide for its cheapest consumer-class laptops from 15 years ago?

BTW, I just checked Inspiron 7000, a Pentium II laptop that was probably equivalent to the 770 Thinkpad. Same thing: lots of drivers, and disassembly instructions. Many forum members thought I was an idiot when I abandoned Thinkpads five years ago in favor of Dells. Look who's laughing now.

[Ibthink]

I don't recognize any of the models listed under "Legacy Systems". I think those are extremely obscure laptops from the 80286 era.

All of these systems are from the early 90s - as their first Notebook was introduced in 1991.

How much support does Lenovo provide for its cheapest consumer-class laptops from 15 years ago?

They don´t have any consumernotebook that old (at least not outside China).

Click on "Inspiron" and "Latitude" instead. My 15-year-old Inspiron 7500 is still fully supported, and so is my first laptop, the Inspiron 8200 from 2001.

There are also enough Latitude systems (from the 90s and partly early 2000s) unsupported or not fully supported, for example: http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/ ... 00/manuals & http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/ ... ls/drivers Drivers, but no manuals at all.

Or: http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/ ... cp/manuals & http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/ ... pt/manuals & http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/ ... -t/drivers No manuals, nearly no drivers.

There are more examples, but the thing is: You are right about most Dell systems from about 2000 and onward, but most systems from the 90s are not really supported anymore - you said they were.

[pianowizard]

They don´t have any consumernotebook that old (at least not outside China).

Yes, I was indeed asking about Lenovo's China-only consumer laptops from around 2000. How much support is still provided for those? Lenovo -- the company, not the name -- has been around since 1984, so I bet it does have consumer laptops that old.

most systems from the 90s are not really supported anymore - you said they were.

I wrote "most laptops dating back to the 1990s", which was intended to mean "most laptops since the 1990s". I admit it wasn't clear because the phrase "date back to" has two meanings: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/d ... te-back-to

Anyway, the important point is that it's now very hard to find drivers and documents on lenovo.com for Thinkpads more than ~5 years old. Like I said in another thread, I can't even look up the 7-character product code of my X200s.

[brchan]

Drivers for old thinkpads isn't as big of an issue as the model # lookup and HMM. IMO, most of the drivers are old and only work with outdated and insecure operating systems. You would likely be much better served by installing Linux, which still supports much of the hardware out of the box (puppy linux, debian, etc.) and with many apps to choose from, including capable browsers.

Getting rid of the model # lookup and HMM is a terrible idea. With no model lookup, it makes diagnosing and buying older thinkpads more difficult, and with no HMM, you risk breaking/damaging something or going around in circles trying to figure out how to install or change out a part.