IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support

[Johan]

Dear forum friends:

I am ended up in a very unsatisfactory and unhappy situation through no fault of my own, and I now kindly ask the forum members reading this thread to share any good advice you may have. I really don’t know what to do now…

This is the issue (long story, sorry – hang on, if you can – thanks.)

Background: This spring I bought via the Marketplace in this forum a T42p – being this: FS: T42 2.1GHz 15" UXGA 1600x1200 2373Q1U. This particular T42p had shortly before been bought by the a forum member (who is residing in the USA) via eBay from the IBM Authorized Dealer ThinkPad World (as discussed in the thread Has anyone purchased on eBay from ibmfactoryoutlet?). According to the eBay advertisement from ThinkPad World, this unit was ”a remanufactured product are sold by IBM with a S-Claim classification which means that they are in excellent new/ near new condition” and furthermore: ”…includes Six Month IBM warranty plus a 3 Year Mack International extended warranty”. The T42p was shipped from ThinkPad World to the forum member and ThinkPad World had issued a sales invoice to the forum member, stating model and serial number. I have received a copy of that invoice.

I am a resident of Copenhagen, Denmark, and as explained I bought the T42p in the USA, for it to be shipped to me here, and only to be used here. The T42p at the time sold by ThinkPad World had remaining warranty with ”Location = United States” and expiration date = 2008-02-03. After having read a great deal (on this extremely valuable forum!) about warranty issues (incl. the MACK thing included by ThinkPad World), I had decided to extend the relatively soon-to-expire warranty with a genuine IBM warranty, which should cover here in Denmark. The T42p was being a model 2373 and hence is eligible for IBM’s International warranty service (IWS), which is also available in Denmark. At the time I bought the T42p from the forum member, he very kindly helped me arrange an extended warranty, since this cannot be done in Denmark. The extended warranty was P/N 69P9201 5 Year Depot 9x5 Next Business Day, which was purchased directly from IBM. Knowing warranty issues can be tricky, I wrote the American IBM seller at the time of this extended warranty sale, asking if the extended warranty just being purchased would also cover in Denmark? The answer, received per e-mail from the IBM seller stated: ”1. Yes you will be able to get warranty repair in Denmark. 2. No other documentation will be necessary.” I was happy and secure. After this has been set up and put into effect (reflected through IBM’s Warranty Lookup page), the T42p was finally shipped to me via USPS. Upon arrival into Denmark, the Danish VAT (25 %) was calculated on basis of the declared shipping-value ($1300), and I paid this VAT to the Danish postal service upon delivery.

As I am sometimes a thorough person, I mailed IBM Support/UK (they are based in Scotland, covering Denmark from there) after having received the T42p here, asking them to confirm coverage here in Denmark of the USA-issued extended warranty (recall that IBM/USA has already claimed this to be true). First, IBM Support/UK informed that the extended warranty would not cover in Denmark, but would only in the country where it was purchased. After writing back to IBM Support/UK, including the prior confirmation on the contrary from the IBM/USA-seller, I this summer received a mail from IBM Support/UK stating: ”All machines are now covered internationally, both for base warranty and for service upgrades (limited by the service capability in the servicing country) provided that the product is announced and parts available in that country. This was sent by our incountry manager and you will not have any issues with getting your machine fixed if it fails” Signed xxx, IBM Technical support agent. Now, I didn’t quite like the phrase ”provided that the product is announced…”, as I wanted a straight, specific answer, relating to my T42p. Asking for this confirmation, I received a mail from IBM Support/UK stating: ”I hereby confirm that your machine (2373-Q1U, S/N xxxxxx) if broken will be repaired under warranty (within the warranty period) in Denmark, if it should break” Signed xxx, IBM technical support agent. Nothing to be in doubt about no more; clear, precise. I was happy. Used the T42 with much joy. Took care of it as a baby. Now, at this point, while the story is still good, I should remember to emphasize strongly that the forum member/seller was outstanding kind and extremely helpful through the entire sale (and in particular when setting up the extended warranty with IBM). Highest kudos to the seller. So far, so good.

And now for the bad part.

About two weeks ago, mid-November, the T42p developed exactly the ”flexed-motherboard symptoms” we have heard so much about: Random shutdowns, freezing, won’t boot etc. After extensive tests, I finally therefore again contacted IBM Support/UK, and spoke to one of the agents referred to above, explaining the situation. No doubt in their minds; they immediately filed a repair-case, after first confirming that the T42p was within warranty, and was covered in Denmark, and that this was a warranty repair which would be carried out with no cost for me, except for the cost of handling in the T42p to the sub-contracted IBM repair-centre (the name of which is ”ServiceGruppen” [SG]). I asked for a mail from IBM Support/UK confirming the warranty coverage, and confirming the free repair for me, and I immediately received one such from them stating this very precise. I made a detailed error description to the service centre (SG), included a copy of the sales invoice from ThinkPad World to the USA-based forum member, included a copy of the sales invoice issued by the seller (forum member) to me, and also included a copy of the VAT-declaration filed by the Danish Customs authorities upon import of the T42p into Denmark. I explained to SG the buying circumstances, that I was a private person who had bought the T42p from a private person in the USA, who had bought it from an authorized IBM dealer. I included a copy of the fresh mail from IBM Support/UK, confirming that this was a warranty repair to be carried out at cost for me. Everything completely straight, completely honest. OK; handed everything in to SG, they filed the case, and I went home. Wanting my baby back and well.

About a week later, I received the verdict from the service provider (SG): The motherboard needs to be replaced (bad news, but expected). But the totally unexpected, far worse bad news was this statement by SG: ”The warranty has been rejected by IBM Denmark. This machine has been bought between a private person in Denmark and a private person in the USA. If being repaired under warranty, the machine must be sent to USA” (implicitly saying: At the owners cost and trouble). We [SG] however offer to repair it as a non-warranty case for $1250,- AAAARGH!!!. I called SG, asking “now what is this about; you already have a confirmation in writing from IBM stating that this is a warranty repair – so why now all this??” Answer by SG: ”We won’t start a repair on a foreign ThinkPad until IBM Denmark has confirmed that they will pay the repair costs”. To this I replied that I didn’t understand that; because I had already spoken to IBM so what was this all about?? Answer: IBM Denmark and IBM Support/UK need to sort this out. We won’t start until we receive confirmation from IBM Denmark. Period.

OK, what to do, except calling IBM Support/UK again, explaining them all this confusion. ”No worries”, they said, ”there is no discussion that this IS indeed a warranty repair that shall be carried out free of charge for you. We (IBM Support/UK) will contact SG right away, and we will instruct them to repair the T42p under warranty; you just relax”. I said: ”Ooh, thanks a lot, phew, but… eeeh.. would you perhaps mind sending me a mail, addressed to SG, and confirming in writing what you just explained by telephone?” Yes, certainly they would – and once more I received a mail, this one stating: ”IBM Support/UK hereby confirm that the repair case, with IBM service number xxx, and related to ThinkPad T42p model 2373-Q1U, S/N xxxx, is a warranty repair (CCR) which shall be carried out in Denmark, and with no cost for the customer, Mr. (me). Signed xxx IBM Support/UK”. After that, all is well. I thought.

Now, because at this point I would sort of ”see this thing through”, and avoid further confusion, I called SG again, told them to look in their mailbox for yet a confirmation from IBM Support/UK. They look and went again: ”We won’t start a repair until having received confirmation from IBM Denmark that they will pay”. Period. (Aaargh!!). What else to do than calling IBM Support/UK again (as I also didn’t know who to speak to in IBM Denmark; I had just no idea of who to call there?). So: “Hello IBM Scotland, would you mind calling IBM Denmark and finally get this crazy story on track?” Yes, sure they would, at this time they were also quite annoyed by all this confusion. An hour later IBM Support/UK then called me back, and said that they had just had a long and quite upset argument with IBM Denmark (and an argument which involved managers in both ends). The conclusion is that IBM Denmark will NOT honor the warranty repair, totally regardless of that it has previously already been confirmed in writing four times by IBM: First by IBM USA upon extending the warranty, and then three times (I repeat this: Three times!) being confirmed in writing by IBM Support/UK. The person with IBM Denmark in charge of this (having title of ”Country Warranty Manager”) stated in his mail to me explaining the reason for rejecting this warranty repair: ”This machine is bought in a private deal between a private person in Denmark and a private person in the USA and therefore is not covered by warranty in Denmark”. End of story. Take it or leave it.

And not for the very sad part which I really don’t know how to deal with...

So, here I am and I really don’t know what to do. The T42p is still very dead and really, really I want to see it back alive again. The ThinkPad is covered in the USA by the ”EZServ” service (I understand you need to call a 1-800 number, which is inaccessible from Denmark, I believe), who will ship an empty pre-paid box to you; you ship the ThinkPad in the box to the repair centre, they do what needs to be done and ship it back. All very nice, except how on Earth can I make any use of that – now that I am in Denmark?? I really don’t think that they will ship a box abroad… so what am I to do now? I am really lost here.

… and none of you probably want to hear about all the hassle with sending a laptop for repair outside of the EU, which has already been imported and has been VAT’ed, and now needs to be ”exported” to then later be ”imported” again… and all the troubles for the person in USA receiving it… and the anticipated troubles in the USA for someone once it is to be returned… aaargh!!! (I have spoken to the Danish Customs authorities for long time today, and they are very uncertain how to handle the necessary paperwork too – I tell you, I have the clear impression that this affair involves some serious customs and shipment and VAT paperwork). How/where do I find anyone in the USA who can handle this repair on behalf of me (and at some reasonable fee); someone to receive the T42p from me, arrange for it to be sent to EZServ, and checking it upon receipt back from repair, and then finally shipping it back to me? I guess I don't have the opportunity to ship it to EZServ directly, and I also don't except that they would want to ship it anything else than domestic? Oooh, what am I to do??

… and then what if the repair in the USA is not successful (I guess I have read too many horror stories about poor repair experiences both with EZServ and Solectron… I fear receiving it back after repair and then discovering yet a problem… I don’t even want to think of this). Sigh. Aaargh!!!

Friends, I am really, really sorry about all this. I really, really would appreciate if anybody had any advices of how to move forward from here. I feel kind of lost...

Thank to all of you if having read all the above – sorry for the length. And thanks for all good advices – I badly need some.

Kind regards,

Johan

PS: Yes, I have read all the fine print in International Warranty Service Terms And Conditions (English) and I have also read the fine print at the page Statement of Limited Warranty - ThinkPad T40/p, T41/p, T42/p, T43/p but honestly: I really don’t believe IBM Denmark care much about what I believe these legal documents say. I can’t find anywhere where it says anything about private person should not sell to private persons.

[RealBlackStuff]

They are some sad sacks in IBM Denmark!
I would suggest asking IBM Scotland, if they can repair your machine.
That way it will stay within the EU and there should not be any VAT issues. Shipping would also be considerably cheaper.
The guys in Kinnock (Scotland) have (or used to have) a manufacturing plant, so a repair would be well within their capabilities.

Best of luck.

[Troels]

To be honest, Servicegruppen are a bunch of morons too. I.e. they charge you $100 if nothing is wrong (fair enough), but the two incidents i have heard anyone had to send something in to them, they screwed up. - replaced a harddrive when they said they are awaiting a new motherboard, and another case, where they claim that the headphone jack is broken and wants you to pay for a new motherboard, regardless of the fact that it works perfectly.

I am shocked to find out that IBM Denmark doesn't even have their own repair facilities considering the awful prices on Thinkpads over here.
Instead, they subcontract to SG who also repair Toshibas, FSCs and HPs. Knowing that i'm glad that neither of us support IBM DK.

RealBlackStuff's idea is great as they sound like they care in the UK. Else, buy a new motherboard on ebay and do-it-yourself.

[andyP]

Johan
I feel really f.. angry after reading your post. You've gone to the trouble of double and treble checking and you get the proverbial .... finger. No one deserves that sort of treatment. I cannot believe that they have turned down a warranty repair, especially after the trouble you went through to cover your back. There is definitely some big headed, "feeling important", bureaucrat, sitting there thinking who knows what. This is not RIGHT.

In my very humble opinion, I believe you have maybe made one mistake. (Please don't take this wrongly, this is no way a criticism against you, you have shown that you are more than honest). The mistake may have been to provide the repair centre in Denmark with too much information; sales receipt from a person in the US and the warranty confirmation from the UK. (They hate that in Germany as well).

Question: How do I justify the above statement?
Answer: I have handled many warranty claims on ThinkPads and have only once received a negative response, (another story), and no I do not work for IBM or Lenovo. There are at least 3 /4 times a year an International exhibition of some sort near to where I am situated. The exhibitions are visited by all nationalities. Now and again a TP owner has a problem which needs to be repaired under warranty. None of these international warranty claims have ever been refused. - I call it in with type-model and s/n, explain the problem over the phone and I get a "call number". I then send it in with the "call number", clearly visible on the outside of the box, and 1 piece of paper with address, call number and 1 line failure description, (e.g. "TP doesn't start - MB failure), inside the box. The agent on the phone has already told me which parts will be replaced, which he enters into the system for the repair centre. I do not give them any more information than they need.

I believe you may have given some “big-headed” bureaucrat too much information that he/she feels they need to “know better”.

I have some contacts; I may be able to help you and am prepared to give it a go, if you are. More than likely you will have to get your TP back and send it to me in Germany; this will cost less than sending it to the US.
Before taking any further steps I will need your s/n, you can send it to me by PM if you are interested. Other details will have to be cleared up, e.g. can you trust me etc… We can deal with that also through PMs.

EDIT: Obviously if you can win your fight in Denmark, even better.

[ulrich.von.lich]

Johan, sorry to hear your bad experience with IBM Denmark. IMO they don't deserve the name. Since your machine is under warranty and motherboard failure is not your fault, I see no reason they refuse to repair it. Don't buy a motherboard on eBay, you paid for the warranty and you deserve better than that. If andyP couldn't help to get your ThinkPad repaired in Germany, I would give it a try in France if you want.

So far I'm satisfied with the service of IBM France. If you break your keyboard or hard drive, they will send you a replacement the next day, even faster than you order from them. However, the repairing center is not that great. I don't send them my beloved TP unless I have to. Sometimes they replace the wrong parts or even break something such as the keyboard bezel or leave a scratch on your LCD lid. But they will always repair your machine as long as IBM tells them to do so. It's been a while since last time I sent my machine in. I heard the service has been improved lately. Btw, I like the way they handle the returning machines. They send someone to take it and to put in back, so no shipping is needed. It feels more secure and it's free too.

[CZOLG]

I am really sorry to hear about your trouble Johan.
Like RealBlackStuff, I would sugggest you shipped the machine to IBM Scotland. They are aware of the problem and seem to be on your side so it probably would be possible for them to carry out the warranty work.
I recently had my machine repaired there (motherboard replacement due to the defective VGA out) and was very satisfied with the service.

[BeeJayEmm]

Hey Johan, I always enjoy your very informative posts. So sorry to hear about the hoops you've being made to jump through only to find there's no reward at the end. If they're not going to honor the warranty you paid for in good faith, they should refund your money.

Brian

[RasmusP]

Hey Johan,
I am so sorry. Whenever I have dealt with IBM DK I ahve been overly satisfied with them, but they do seem to be a bunch of a**es here. Most of the service personal in the Lenovo division of IBM Denmark are extremely nice. Their number is 70105150 click 1 and 1. Maybe you should try and call them rather than IBM UK? There is definitely a Danish call center, and, as said, they are quite nice.
I have never had trouble with my US machines. I have, however, never had to ship anything to them.

Actually, I though SG had gone bankrupt. Might have been another repair center.

Either way, I hope it works out for you. You should call the Danish call center and talk to them.

Best of luck!
-Rasmus

PS: Naturally, some of the supporters are nicer than others.

[Johan]

Dear forum friends,

– all you who have read (or are now reading) my cry for help, and of course in particular all you very kind and very helpful friends, who have already responded or may later comment this issue – whether you being situated in Europe or abroad:

I deeply appreciate both all your genuine sympathy - so clearly radiating through all your posts - and I deeply appreciate all your advices and all the help so very generously and completely unselfish offered to me. I don’t know really how to express my gratitude to all of you… and just to say “Thank you” is far from sufficient, and does not really describe how I feel. The best way I am probably able to put it in words right now, is that I am very, very grateful for once more experiencing the international friendship which you so clearly through all your help demonstrate in reality EXIST here, amongst us ThinkPad enthusiasts – completely regardless of we being spread all over the World. Owing to all of you, your maturity, and the outstanding high ethical, technical and human standards you set for this board, through YOU being here, and through YOU being the way YOU are; and through all your help – and all these high standards initiated and continuously maintained and supported by the forum Admins and Moderators; owing to all of this I have always found and right now do this even more – so much pleasure being part of this international, friendly, helpful, unselfish community. Thank you, all of you.

To comment the suggestions and advices:

They are some sad sacks in IBM Denmark!
I would suggest asking IBM Scotland, if they can repair your machine.
That way it will stay within the EU and there should not be any VAT issues. Shipping would also be considerably cheaper.
The guys in Kinnock (Scotland) have (or used to have) a manufacturing plant, so a repair would be well within their capabilities.

Best of luck.

@ RealBlackStuff: IBM Denmark is an “independent” part of an international, commercial corporation the aim of which (aim of both, I guess) is to maximize profit. According to the above-mentioned ”Country Warranty Manager” (in IBM Denmark, the person who was responsible for denying this warranty repair), his job is simply to minimize the expenses of IBM Denmark, so that this national entity may present the largest economical result (= profit) to their mother company, IBM Corp., Inc. This is what I was told by him on the phone, when asking for an explanation for his decision. Simply put, he earns his money (wages) by saving IBM Denmark for as many repair expenses as possible. This is not a personal thing, I was explained, this is “just company rules”, which I should already have known before handing in my repair-case, I was furthermore told (eeh, oops, the IBM Support/UK personnel obviously also didn’t know these “company rules”, as you recall from the above, but I “ought” to have know them!?!). When asked if he would consider doing an exception from those “company rules”, in this (in my opinion:) probably quite odd and unusual case, which would otherwise leave a kind of bad taste (at least in me) with respect to IBM Denmark’s reputation (you recall: I had 4 x prior written confirmation from IBM that they would honor this warranty repair); when asked if would be willing to do this, to maintain the high reputation of IBM, the answer was that he “was unfortunately not able” to do this. So, I asked: Well, who are able to alter your decision, then? Answer: No one in Denmark; and no one in IBM Support/UK. In other words… “you go yourself and find someone else to escalate this matter to, if you wish”. Oh, wow, definitively end of story. I should want to add at this point, that I have throughout this entire affair only and always acted completely calm, completely honest, rational, very understanding, and that I have never raised my voice, never used bad language of any sort etc. I always treated everybody totally respectful. But, in my interpretation it all boils down into this: Money is money, and is easy to see at the bottom line; reputation and customer satisfaction does not end up at the bottom line – and I am just a small, unimportant customer.

The persons I spoke to at IBM Support/UK (who are based in Greenock, Scotland) were always “on my side” in this matter, I felt, as also evident from the above. They did not, however, offer me the opportunity to ship my T42p to Scotland for IBM there to repair it. I guess that they (IBM Support/UK) also have a set of rules they need to adhere to, and they do not wish to go beyond these rules (or “bend” them to this extent), perhaps risking their own job if doing so. They clearly indicated that they felt I would loose the battle with IBM Denmark, and that I in the end would need to ship my T42p for repair in the USA. So, “the Black Man” (translated using my dictionary; I hope you all understand what this mean); the Black Man very obviously ends right here.

To be honest, Servicegruppen are a bunch of morons too. I.e. they charge you $100 if nothing is wrong (fair enough), but the two incidents i have heard anyone had to send something in to them, they screwed up. - replaced a harddrive when they said they are awaiting a new motherboard, and another case, where they claim that the headphone jack is broken and wants you to pay for a new motherboard, regardless of the fact that it works perfectly.

I am shocked to find out that IBM Denmark doesn't even have their own repair facilities considering the awful prices on Thinkpads over here.
Instead, they subcontract to SG who also repair Toshibas, FSCs and HPs. Knowing that i'm glad that neither of us support IBM DK.

RealBlackStuff's idea is great as they sound like they care in the UK. Else, buy a new motherboard on ebay and do-it-yourself.

@ Troels: I have (fortunately!) never had anything to do with the IBM Denmark repair sub-contractor in Denmark, ServiceGruppen, so I have no idea of their competence. They did, however, charge me 500 DK+ 25 % VAT translating to $120 for inspection my T42p and rejecting the warranty repair. Please pay, and please take your still-dead T42p with you when you leave with it, unrepaired, goodbye.

Your suggestion about sending the T42p for repair in the UK, is – in principle – good, but I would need to have someone (private person) there to ship it to, and this person handing it in for repair there, acting if my T42p was owned by he/she. There is absolutely no cheating here of any kind, but unfortunately I don’t know anybody in neither England nor Scotland who I could ask for having all this trouble just for me.

As to your suggestion about buying a “new” T42(p) motherboard off eBay, I have already considered this, but I would like to keep it is a last resort. I would rather like not having to do this, since I have never done that kind of advanced repairs myself, and if doing it I fear that my remaining warranty (which is valid with EZServ in the USA, throughout 2010-02-03) would surely be void forever. Should the UXGA/FlexView display ever fail, the warranty surely is worth the money, I assume. A possibility with eBay, yes, but only as a last resort.

Johan
I feel really f.. angry after reading your post. You've gone to the trouble of double and treble checking and you get the proverbial .... finger. No one deserves that sort of treatment. I cannot believe that they have turned down a warranty repair, especially after the trouble you went through to cover your back. There is definitely some big headed, "feeling important", bureaucrat, sitting there thinking who knows what. This is not RIGHT.

In my very humble opinion, I believe you have maybe made one mistake. (Please don't take this wrongly, this is no way a criticism against you, you have shown that you are more than honest). The mistake may have been to provide the repair centre in Denmark with too much information; sales receipt from a person in the US and the warranty confirmation from the UK. (They hate that in Germany as well).

Question: How do I justify the above statement?
Answer: <snip> (please see answer above - thanks)

I have some contacts; I may be able to help you and am prepared to give it a go, if you are. More than likely you will have to get your TP back and send it to me in Germany; this will cost less than sending it to the US.
Before taking any further steps I will need your s/n, you can send it to me by PM if you are interested. Other details will have to be cleared up, e.g. can you trust me etc… We can deal with that also through PMs.

EDIT: Obviously if you can win your fight in Denmark, even better.

@ andyP: I was overwhelmed by reading your post, Andy. I can’t say it in other words right now than those you read in the beginning of this post. I really, really appreciate you extremely (!) kind offer to help me. Please allow me to get back to that, via PM.

Well, I clearly sense your anger, and I actually had troubles falling asleep for a few nights when this “issue” was at its peak. Of course, there could be larger problems, but in the absence of such, for the time being, I am giving this quite some emotional energy, and as already expressed I am quite sorry for all this. In the unfortunate event that I should perhaps happen to run into larger and more serious problems later, I am sure that I will stop thinking of IBM Denmark in the way I do as of this time (and, no, there are no details about this, that I wish to share here).

And for the “right” or “wrong” part in this matter, I completely agree with you. But… who cares about that, at IBM?

About your comments about my “mistake” (providing the service provider with too many details and too much sales/buying information): You know, funny, Andy, because I completely agree with you to all this! And I exactly had this feeling already at the very time when I wrote my (detailed) error description, and when I included all this information. But… what I did not explain in my prior post is why I explained all these details, and why I included all this information, and handed all this in with the T42p. The “funny” reason is… (yes, believe it or not!)... is that: I was instructed (via the phone) to do all this by IBM Support/UK when they filed my case (!!!). What they explained to me was that the Danish IBM service sub-contractor (SG) was not familiar with handling “International warranty service” repairs (in Denmark) for IBM (ha-ha! I really believe that!!), so (quote:) in order to avoid confusion (unquote) (!!!), they instructed me to provide all the information explained above. Funny, funny! But, in all fairness, recall that IBM Support/UK all the way thought that they were correct in what they continued informing me: That my T42p was indeed eligible for an IWS repair, here, in Denmark. After the quite long (more than half an hour on the phone, I was told) ”upset discussion” between IBM Support/UK and IBM Denmark about this very issue (the conversation which was said to involve management in both ends), the story ended as explained. So, IBM Support/UK was apparently believing what they said… but some strong internal-IBM disagreement seems to have been obvious (unless internal IBM policy has perhaps changed recently; what do I know??). Anyway, this is the explanation… and I totally agree with you (now, looking back) that this apparently was ”an error”, providing them with all this, honest information… but, well, I was only honest, and did what I was instructed. Oh, well – expensive lesson learned!

To the rest of your mail: Thank you ever so much for this outstanding kind proposal; please allow me to get back to this via PM.

Johan, sorry to hear your bad experience with IBM Denmark. IMO they don't deserve the name. Since your machine is under warranty and motherboard failure is not your fault, I see no reason they refuse to repair it. Don't buy a motherboard on eBay, you paid for the warranty and you deserve better than that. If andyP couldn't help to get your ThinkPad repaired in Germany, I would give it a try in France if you want.

So far I'm satisfied with the service of IBM France. If you break your keyboard or hard drive, they will send you a replacement the next day, even faster than you order from them. However, the repairing center is not that great. I don't send them my beloved TP unless I have to. Sometimes they replace the wrong parts or even break something such as the keyboard bezel or leave a scratch on your LCD lid. But they will always repair your machine as long as IBM tells them to do so. It's been a while since last time I sent my machine in. I heard the service has been improved lately. Btw, I like the way they handle the returning machines. They send someone to take it and to put in back, so no shipping is needed. It feels more secure and it's free too.

@ ulrich: As with Andy, I was also equally overwhelmed by the kindness and support you offer, Tony. Please allow me to get back to that, via PM.

I am happy to understand that you have fortunately a much better “service level” with IBM France. Hey; I just got a great idea: Now, if you by any chance would happen to own a fancy Chateau in Paris of your very own (say, Versailles, for example?), and if you need someone to look after the garden, or someone to carry your ThinkPad to your executive jet aircraft (a Gulfstream G-5 these days, is it?), then I could move to Paris, and I could stay on your nice Chateau, and I could carry your ThinkPad (on your way to one of your private islands in the Mauritius, was it?), and then when I had a little time off on my own, there, alone on the Chateau, and the garden all well done; then I could hand in my T42p for repair at IBM France. Now, how are you about that idea?

Again: Thanks ever so much, Tony; I will return to you via PM.

I am really sorry to hear about your trouble Johan.
Like RealBlackStuff, I would sugggest you shipped the machine to IBM Scotland. They are aware of the problem and seem to be on your side so it probably would be possible for them to carry out the warranty work.
I recently had my machine repaired there (motherboard replacement due to the defective VGA out) and was very satisfied with the service.

@ CZOLG: Thank you for your advice, as well – and I am pleased to hear that IBM Scotland (repair) apparently has a good reputation. However, as explained above – to RealBlackStuff – I don’t seem to have this opportunity, as it was not offered by IBM Support/UK… and I don’t know anybody in the UK or Scotland who could act as my “handling agent” there. The idea is certainly interesting and tempting, nevertheless… but I don’t know how to see it through. I will keep it in mind – thank you, too.

Hey Johan, I always enjoy your very informative posts. So sorry to hear about the hoops you've being made to jump through only to find there's no reward at the end. If they're not going to honor the warranty you paid for in good faith, they should refund your money.

Brian

@ BeeJayEmm: Brian, thank you very much for your nice feedback – it is a pleasure to see (and be remembered about) that this forum “works both ways”, particularly right now, while I am being in the position urgently asking for help from others.

As to your suggestion about requesting a refund, I don’t think that this is an option, because recall that I have indeed received what I purchased…: An extended warranty! Unfortunately, its coverage is subsequently stated to be not as I was informed at the time of buying it (and which I was also informed when trying to invoke an international warranty repair here). I am quite convinced that IBM would not for one second consider a refund for the amount paid for this warranty… they would probably continue to claim what I have already been explained: That it was I who “should have known” that it would not cover an IWS – regardless of IBM themselves four times (I keep repeating this!); regardless of themselves confirming this in writing four times to be true. But… I am just one small person, and they probably have a quite serious office full of clever, highly-paid attorneys – so who do you think are going to convince who? Finally, it is not in my interest to obtain a refund. I extended the warranty because I wanted an extended warranty. No changes on that point (except the apparent difficulties actually obtaining the IWS-repair-under-warranty!).

Hey Johan,
I am so sorry. Whenever I have dealt with IBM DK I ahve been overly satisfied with them, but they do seem to be a bunch of a**es here. Most of the service personal in the Lenovo division of IBM Denmark are extremely nice. Their number is 70105150 click 1 and 1. Maybe you should try and call them rather than IBM UK? There is definitely a Danish call center, and, as said, they are quite nice.
I have never had trouble with my US machines. I have, however, never had to ship anything to them.

Actually, I though SG had gone bankrupt. Might have been another repair center.

Either way, I hope it works out for you. You should call the Danish call center and talk to them.

Best of luck!
-Rasmus

PS: Naturally, some of the supporters are nicer than others.

RasmusP: Hi Rasmus; yet a countryman; my pleasure! I have never had any repairs with IBM, so I have no a priori experience with that – but I am pleased to hear (what I already thought): That most of them are cooperative and honor their reputation.

As to who to contact about a repair: As mentioned above, my T42p (which came with a three-year IWS warranty) had its initial expiration date 2008-02-03, meaning that it was originally sold by IBM in Feb. 2005. If your turn to IBM Machine warranties and license information, select “Version 8: For machines shipped from April 2004 to August 2006”, choose the English version, this will take you to IBM Statement of Limited Warranty. The phone number to contact is given at the bottom at page 9, in Denmark being 45 20 82 00. The number I always used was 45 20 82 25 (as mentioned being the IBM Support team which is responsible for supporting ThinkPad customers in Denmark; this team physically being located in the UK). According to Lenovo Worldwide Support Center phone list, I see the phone number you mention (70 10 51 50) also be given there, but I am quite certain that calls will be routed directly to the very same team… as I am convinced that there is not an ”IBM-only” team handling ThinkPad’s sold before IBM was sold off the PC-division to Lenovo, and another team not knowing anything about the ”IBM-only” team. I am sure I will end exactly where this all started. But, I am ready to give it a call…

------------------------

It’s way past midnight over here, and I need to get to bed – but I wanted to post this before I could go to sleep. Again: Thank you all you who have shared your sympathy with me, and all of you who have offered your help to get a ”happy end” to this story. After having read your posts, I am convinced that there will a happy end. And that it will be solely (solely!) owing to the existence of this fantastic friendly forum.

Thank you, all of you. A few PM’s will be on their way, tomorrow morning.

Further comments and suggestions are welcome – but I feel much, much better inside now. Thanks to you, friends.

Truly kind regards,

Johan

[lophiomys]

Johan,
I ran into a similar problem 2004, though not as drastic as yours right now.
After six months (!) discussion with IBM Support, I documented
my case and sent the information to several consumer protection
organizations. One of those made one telephone call, and 3 days later my case was solved.
HTH

[RasmusP]

As to who to contact about a repair: As mentioned above, my T42p (which came with a three-year IWS warranty) had its initial expiration date 2008-02-03, meaning that it was originally sold by IBM in Feb. 2005. If your turn to IBM Machine warranties and license information, select “Version 8: For machines shipped from April 2004 to August 2006”, choose the English version, this will take you to IBM Statement of Limited Warranty. The phone number to contact is given at the bottom at page 9, in Denmark being 45 20 82 00. The number I always used was 45 20 82 25 (as mentioned being the IBM Support team which is responsible for supporting ThinkPad customers in Denmark; this team physically being located in the UK). According to Lenovo Worldwide Support Center phone list, I see the phone number you mention (70 10 51 50) also be given there, but I am quite certain that calls will be routed directly to the very same team… as I am convinced that there is not an ”IBM-only” team handling ThinkPad’s sold before IBM was sold off the PC-division to Lenovo, and another team not knowing anything about the ”IBM-only” team. I am sure I will end exactly where this all started. But, I am ready to give it a call…

You are probably right: It is probably the same team handling IBM ThinkPads and Lenovo ThinkPads. I am sure you will be directed from the first number to the ThinkPad division. I was just confused with you talking to IBM UK, as I have always talked to IBM Denmark with Danish supports. When I have had parts shipped from them, the address is somewhere in Copenhagen. I do not remember where, though.

Either way, when I got my first American ThinkPad (a madly maxed out T60p!), I called IBM Denmark and had them confirm that warranty would be handled by Denmark as long as it was IWS eligible. (Actually, I was told that a serial starting with L3 was covered, but the support rep. was wrong, as I found out later (some thread on this board confirms this)). Some types they cannot offer service too, but that is simply due to part limitations, I was told. I have never been denied service for a US machine by IBM Denmark, but I have not had to deal with in-house repair, though.

One of my friends has extended warranty so that IBM has to come out and repair his machine on his location. I wonder who takes care of that? Might be local IBM resellers?

Bottom line: as many other has stated, whatever the manager told you is false! IBM Denmark is obligated to take care of this repair. I hope it works out for you.

[RealBlackStuff]

Johan,
so far you mentioned only that IBM/UK has not offered to repair your TP.
But have you asked them if they can do it?

And I would certainly follow up on andyP and ulrich.von.lich's offer to see if either of them can get it done for you in Germany or France.

The attitude of that Danish IBM-manager is unacceptable!
Contacting the Consumer Organisations would be a good idea.

If you really want to pull this off, you could even write to the European Court in Strasbourg, France.
Read about Appealing Rights Under EU Law http://tinyurl.com/2kxws3

This is going to the extreme though, and might take quite some effort AND time.

As an afterthought, if you know what needs to be replaced (like a motherboard) you could always ask IBM to send you the parts at no charge and do a DIY. With the help of the HMM you should be able to do those things yourself. And make sure to ask if the warranty will be voided or not.

Best of Irish, wished to you from the USA.

[andyP]

PM received from Johan

[rbena]

Johan - I read your post with interest, as I also travel overseas and assume the warranty I've purchased will be good in the countries listed by IBM.

As you've received assurance from IBM the warranty would be honored, I would pursue with IBM that they honor it.

I would also look into whether IBM Denmark is obligated to provide warranty service to Thinkpad owners who have valid international warranties, and not 'parse' their warranty service. This would be via contacting local consumer protection agencies, and writing directly to IBM's head office.

If IBM Denmark cannot follow international warranty service policy (as stated by IBM USA and UK), then are they really representing IBM?

For many people like myself, this brings into question purchasing an IBM notebook for international warranty service. For if IBM is unable to genuinely offer international warranty service through their offices and agents worldwide, then service continuity and reliability is greatly reduced for business people travelling with their Thinkpads internationally.

If IBM Denmark can set their 'own policy', why not other IBM centers? I would be grateful if you could keep us updated.

[Johan]

Dear forum friends,

– all you who have read this, all you who have shared your advices or suggestions in this thread, and also you who have chosen, for the time being, to remain private and have offered me your help; either directly or indirectly… thank you very much, each one of you. I am very grateful to continue to sense all your support and all the good will so obviously flowing into my direction.

- and I would like to add, that I have learned very clearly during the last few days that this forum is far more powerful than what I had ever thought… until this “affair” arose. Powerful both when it comes to the amazing extent of the unselfish help forum members Worldwide are offering and providing each other (all this which I am taking so much advantage of now), but also powerful in the sense that we indeed have a voice which - at least sometimes, if fortunate - is being heard at a level, until now, far beyond my imagination. And those Big Ears, listening here, they belong to honest and understanding humans who are having a very clear sense of what is right, and what is wrong, and in particular having a Big Will to both seek to maintain and improve the IBM/Lenovo customer satisfaction and the overall IBM/Lenovo reputation. And all this even for such a small (and in my own belief, previously: Unimportant) customer as I. And I am grateful for having had this experience, no matter how it turns out in the end. And being offered this help, which may, or may not, work out to my satisfaction in the end has already - to a certain extent - restored my faith in IBM/Lenovo. If any details about this help will later be rightful to share here, have no doubt that I shall do this. It would however be inappropriate and unrespectful to discuss this matter any further now (and I also don’t want to put pressure on anybody, if disclosing what has been offered me in a not-public form), so kindly don’t ask or comment this issue. Thank you.

To comment the most recent posts:

Johan,
I ran into a similar problem 2004, though not as drastic as yours right now.
After six months (!) discussion with IBM Support, I documented my case and sent the information to several consumer protection organizations. One of those made one telephone call, and 3 days later my case was solved.
HTH

@ lophiomys: I won’t of course say that: “I am happy to hear of your long battle with IBM back in 2004”, but that it ended to your satisfaction (except for having to go through all the trouble) is naturally a pleasure for me now to read – helping to keep hope alive here. Although I have of course still the choice and/or the opportunity (one way or another) to escalate this matter further e.g. through raising some internal or external formal complaint against IBM, I have (as of now) chosen not to go this route, even I believe that I am in possession of the necessary resources required to do this. You see, especially the Support team in IBM-Scotland was always very helpful, and I would not like to cause problems for particularly any of them. Actually, this is one of my main reasons for choosing not to take this path, as long as other alternatives still exist. Also, and in despite of this whole “affair”: I would like to remain “friends” with IBM Support/UK and IBM Denmark, not the least in the case that any of my Danish ThinkPad’s (all those which are originally bought in Denmark, and which are still under Danish IBM-warranty) should ever need repair. I am absolutely certain that it pays much better off if this “affair” can be solved without having to go this – unpleasant to everybody - path. More important, and as mentioned at the beginning of this post, I have recently been met with much support, so I really hope that I need not consider your suggestion further. But I do know that the opportunities you mention exist. As a last resort. Yet, if having a choice, I really much rather want to invest my time, energy and money in a more positive, directly forward-moving fashion - in stead of perhaps struggling a whole lot for a long time (not that I by choosing not to contest the decision of IBM Denmark, for now, has accepted them to be right; no way; it is just that I have better things to spend my time, energy, money and emotions on). But thank you for your comment, nevertheless. I surely won’t forget it.

<snip>
Either way, when I got my first American ThinkPad (a madly maxed out T60p!), I called IBM Denmark and had them confirm that warranty would be handled by Denmark as long as it was IWS eligible. (Actually, I was told that a serial starting with L3 was covered, but the support rep. was wrong, as I found out later (some thread on this board confirms this)). Some types they cannot offer service too, but that is simply due to part limitations, I was told. I have never been denied service for a US machine by IBM Denmark, but I have not had to deal with in-house repair, though.

One of my friends has extended warranty so that IBM has to come out and repair his machine on his location. I wonder who takes care of that? Might be local IBM resellers?

Bottom line: as many other has stated, whatever the manager told you is false! IBM Denmark is obligated to take care of this repair. I hope it works out for you

@ RasmusP: Thank you for this (highly interesting!) information… that IBM Denmark has never denied warranty on any of your US ThinkPad’s (!?!?!!!). I surely hope that I shall some day (and preferably soon!) experience being offered the same very fine service by IBM Denmark, as I understand that both you and your friend have had. Or is it perhaps just because… IBM much better… like you? Could this simply be the explanation? If so, could you please teach me to become such a wonderful, extremely nice guy as you evidently are? Please, Rasmus? I really need to much nicer!! I completely count on you…

Johan,
so far you mentioned only that IBM/UK has not offered to repair your TP.
But have you asked them if they can do it?

And I would certainly follow up on andyP and ulrich.von.lich's offer to see if either of them can get it done for you in Germany or France.

The attitude of that Danish IBM-manager is unacceptable!
Contacting the Consumer Organisations would be a good idea.

If you really want to pull this off, you could even write to the European Court in Strasbourg, France.
Read about Appealing Rights Under EU Law http://tinyurl.com/2kxws3

This is going to the extreme though, and might take quite some effort AND time.

As an afterthought, if you know what needs to be replaced (like a motherboard) you could always ask IBM to send you the parts at no charge and do a DIY. With the help of the HMM you should be able to do those things yourself. And make sure to ask if the warranty will be voided or not.

Best of Irish, wished to you from the USA.

@ RealBlackStuff: Thank you for your suggestions – you and I think much alike! Well, as of to ask IBM Support/UK to “bend the rules”, and ask them to directly arrange for having my T42p repaired in Scotland (and while not informing IBM Denmark about this); this would be, in my opinion, to ask them to go against the rules they officially need to adhere to as stated by their employer, IBM. This I don’t want to try; it would be very unfair to them, personally. Of course, if actually doing this (having had an “unofficial repair” carried out in Scotland, and behind the back of IBM Denmark), this would inevitable leave some electronic trace in some IBM Support-computers… and I am not sure I would able to sleep pleasant at night knowing that some helpful IBM Support persons had perhaps put their job at stake for me. If this was about my life, OK, sure I would not hesitate with asking them for one second… but… as described above, this would not be fair. Also, I am quite certain that they would have suggested this by themselves, having this opportunity in reality existed. And they didn’t ask, so the opportunity doesn’t exist – officially. And you have already read what I commented to lophiomys’ post, above.

Asking IBM to ship a new motherboard, and replacing it by myself… I absolutely understand the idea (and it is good!), but first I am not certain that I am capable of this (although I know how to read the HMM), but moreover I really don’t think that this is feasible in reality, because IBM would (I am absolutely sure) never ship out anything except FRU’s and CRU’s – and a motherboard is surely neither!

Johan - I read your post with interest, as I also travel overseas and assume the warranty I've purchased will be good in the countries listed by IBM.

As you've received assurance from IBM the warranty would be honored, I would pursue with IBM that they honor it.

I would also look into whether IBM Denmark is obligated to provide warranty service to Thinkpad owners who have valid international warranties, and not 'parse' their warranty service. This would be via contacting local consumer protection agencies, and writing directly to IBM's head office.

If IBM Denmark cannot follow international warranty service policy (as stated by IBM USA and UK), then are they really representing IBM?

For many people like myself, this brings into question purchasing an IBM notebook for international warranty service. For if IBM is unable to genuinely offer international warranty service through their offices and agents worldwide, then service continuity and reliability is greatly reduced for business people travelling with their Thinkpads internationally.

If IBM Denmark can set their 'own policy', why not other IBM centers? I would be grateful if you could keep us updated.

@ rbena: You have raised a very important question, which I have already asked myself for some time: If I am ended up as I am right now, here in Denmark – then what about all you many ThinkPad customers all over the World – should you all start wave goodbye to your IWS? Of course, IBM would thank you for first purchasing it, but then when you need to invoke an IWS repair somewhere (in Denmark or elsewhere, away from home)… should you then expect an answer from IBM like the one I received from IBM Denmark: “Aah, sorry friends, go home and have your repair back there, IWS unfortunately doesn’t cover outside your own country; veeery sorry and good bye now, and we wish you and your dead laptop a pleasant and safe journey home, and, ooh, welcome back here another time”. I cant’ answer this. To me, the answer seems to blow in the wind, until I know how my.. “affair” all ends up. Good question, rbena, indeed. Very good question, actually (- are someone with Big Ears hopefully listening here?)

------------

I’ll leave it for now. And as mentioned I hope that the Big Will, that has surfaced, may have what it takes to solve this matter – and of course solve this to my satisfaction, but also to the satisfaction of all of you ThinkPad users and friends all over the World who have followed this troubled journey. And I hope that the Big Will will also be able to restore your faith in the IBM/Lenovo customer satisfaction and the IBM/Lenovo reputation through a hopefully not-so-distant “happy end”.

So, we will take a rest here. And we will send out our best wishes. And we will see how this matter evolves. And while doing this, we will all remember the old, universal saying: Where there is a will, there is a way. And I am absolutely convinced that there is a good will here. And I hope it may find its way forwards – while searching for what is Right – that its way forward is not being paved with too much resistance and too many hindrances… because in such case, this would be completely beyond my very limited intellectual capability to understand. So – here is hope… And here is faith. Because of the Big Will. And because of the continued support of all of you.

And I shall keep you posted.

And I send again all my best regards to everyone of you,

Johan

[RealBlackStuff]

I'll keep it short, and hope not to make a nuisance of myself, BUT...
You think it is unfair to ask IBM UK to help you out, where it is unfair from IBM Denmark to deny you your RIGHTS.
YOU are the customer, and the customer is always right!
Stop pussyfooting, call the UK and ask them straight out!
Worst that can happen is they say 'no'. What have you got to lose?

[hdahl]

I'll keep it short, and hope not to make a nuisance of myself, BUT...
You think it is unfair to ask IBM UK to help you out, where it is unfair from IBM Denmark to deny you your RIGHTS.
YOU are the customer, and the customer is always right!
Stop pussyfooting, call the UK and ask them straight out!
Worst that can happen is they say 'no'. What have you got to lose?

As far as I remember IBM Denmark has some years ago issued a statement that they do not assume the responsibilities for guarantee for notebooks purchased outside of Denmark. As far as I remember they also informed that the decision was made in order to support the very high prices for IBM notebooks in Denmark despite the value of the dollar was declining.


Best regards,

Henrik

[ajkula66]

That sounds like the brain (USA) can't control what the hands (Denmark/UK/whoever) are doing...which sounds like a corporate version of MS...as in disease, not bloatware maker....

The key thing in this dispute is the fact that everyone apart from IBM Denmark agrees that Johan is right...now someone from here has to pull some self-righteous bureaucrate over there by the ear...

They are so lucky they are dealing with a fine gentleman that Johan is...if it were me, it would've gotten very ugly by now.

May The Force be with you, Johan.

[Brad]

So sorry to hear of your trouble.

I hope that this is resolved to your satisfaction quickly.

This is no way to treat a customer.

Brad

PS: If Johan somehow doesn't take the position in Paris, I am avialable.

[RealBlackStuff]

Johan,

there is a new forum out, http://forum.lenovo.com
Your problem is also a Lenovo problem, after all they bought the whole shebang from IBM.

Post your problem there as well, but keep it short and to the point, without all the 'dramatics'.
The Lenovo mods (those with names like Xxx_Lenovo) are constantly 'roaming' that new forum, and perhaps one of them has a heart and can help you further.
It's worth a shot!

[BeeJayEmm]

One other suggestion for you , Johan. I have never had occasion to try it myself but some other members here have recommended Sending an email to Sam Palmisano. I recall reading anecdotal accounts here that some people got satisfaction. Best of luck to you!

Brian

[dsvochak]

RBS wrote:

Your problem is also a Lenovo problem, after all they bought the whole shebang from IBM.

My understanding is any machine sold before 5/1/05 is still an IBM problem rather than a Lenovo problem. The Lenovo people may do what they can but BeeJayEmm's suggestion may be more productive.

Good luck.

[Esben]

I'm very sorry to hear of your problems Johan. I hope you get this resolved soon. Fortunately I've never had a warranty claim for my US bought ThinkPad. I did though, crack the screen, and had to buy and change it myself.

If you don't have any luck changing the opinion of IBM Denmark, you can try Forbrugerankenævnet.
It's very unfornate that a big company such as IBM doesn't have the guts to support their customers as a big and connected organization.

I know from my time in the customer service of a warehouse (Kvickly), that we often had to honor a customer claim of warranty, even though it was unjustified, just because of being part of a large chain and corporation. I was expecting this to be similar for bigger corporations, and across country borders.

Best of luck
Esben

[rbena]

It's very unfornate that a big company such as IBM doesn't have the guts to support their customers as a big and connected organization.

Yes. a company intent on doing the right thing and providing true IWS would secure an agent in Denmark who would provide this service. I am hopeful the list of exceptions will now remain small, to retain the worth of IWS for international travellers.

[bill bolton]

I am hopeful the list of exceptions will now remain small, to retain the worth of IWS for international travellers.

As far as I can tell, there isn't much of an issue in terms of getting IWS coverage when someone travelling with a ThinkPad is looking for support while temporaily in country (at least as long as the parts for their ThinkPad are used in models which are sold in the territory concerned).

It may be an issue for users who are resident in a country and import a ThinkPad from another market, and then try to gain ongoing local support under an IWS. This is where things seems to trip up.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[Ogg]

I am reading this IWS thread with great interest. I don't find anything in the online documentation that would disqualify Johan from receiving IWS in Denmark (or anywhere else he may need to be). The IWS info clearly says that "(IWS) enables customers who travel with or relocate any IWS-eligible IBM product to receive warranty service in any country where their product is sold and serviced." The only exceptions described in the IWS is the availability of parts for elgibility and therefore excludes some models that are not typically sold in the country where service would be expected. In Johan's case, since the model was typically available for sale in his country, it wouldn't be excluded. He investigated all that before buying the unit and before buying the IWS. That leaves only a couple of other concerns: is a laptop purchase transferrable, and is IWS transferrable. I don't seem to recall reading anywhere on IBM website that that is not so.

I would insist that IBM Denmark provide in writing citing the actual policy entry that describes Johan's disqualification. Failing that, I would first take the matter to IBM head office in USA, and failing that I would make the matter public with a Denmark TV station.

[rbena]

I would insist that IBM Denmark provide in writing citing the actual policy entry that describes Johan's disqualification.

Again, from what Johan and others have posted, IBM Denmark is setting their own policy which differs from IWS documentation. If IBM corporate headquarters will not resolve this discrepency, it appears Denmark and any other agency that sees fit can set the policy that suits them, regardless of documentation.

[RealBlackStuff]

Guys and girls,
give this post a rest.
Johan is in contact with the proper authorities, who are doing their utmost, to sort out his problem.
In due time, no doubt Johan will post the results.
Until then, let's all keep our fingers and other extremities crossed, that it will work out well for him.
My $0.02

[Johan]

Dear forum friends,

It has long been time for an update about this matter, so here it comes – although it is unfortunately not the “Happy End” which would have been nice to share, particularly now this very day before Christmas Eve.

Many mails have been exchanged on this matter, so I will just extract the core of them. As indicated in my post above, I was initially contacted (and much to my surprise!) by a very helpful person from within the Lenovo Customer Care in the USA. I have no idea about how this kind and helpful person had heard or learned about this case – if someone friendly forum member gave a tip or whatever (in such case: Thank you, you unknown and kind, helpful person!), but in any case I received this PM:

Subject: We can try to help too..

Johan,

I've asked our customer care team in EMEA if they can get involved and try to get this on the right track. They have agreed to try to help. I have to say, I'm uncertain how effective we will be on this, but we want to do anything that is possible.

I also note you getting help from others via PM - glad the community can help. If you have worked something out already, then great! If not, and you want us to have a go at this, can you PM me your service case number, and those you have been working with, as well as the best way for Lenovo customer care to get in touch with you?

I'll forward along to the team for Monday.

I immediately replied to this offer for help, and…

Subject: RE: We can try to help too..”

Dear (someone),

Before giving you the necessary details, I would like to start off by emphasizing that I very much hope that I have been able to describe my “experiences” (or whatever word to use for this… “affair”) in the thread IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support in an objective and sober way, without neither leaving the impression of offending, insulting or accusing anybody in person at IBM (neither at the IBM Support in Scotland, nor at IBM Denmark) for providing any sort of e.g. “impolite” customer support or for acting “customer-hostile” in any, personal way. What I have however tried, to the best of my ability, to convey in the above-mentioned thread, in a hopefully objective fashion (to the extent possible, my very “subjective” role in all of this taken into consideration), is the huge and very unsatisfactory contrast (!) between what the IBM Support/UK team believed and informed me in writing about the IWS coverage in Denmark and then what the IWS warranty business policy as actually practiced by IBM Denmark is. Now, if I had been informed by IBM Support/UK from day one, that the IWS would not cover my T42p in Denmark, then this “affair” had never existed. But… as you have now read from the thread, some very strong internal disagreement about IWS coverage existed between IBM Support/UK and IBM Denmark, both before and at the time when I filed my repair. Since it is IBM Denmark (as the national IBM entity to “pay” for this repair); since it is they who have the last word to say in this matter, I have ended up with what I described as “the Black Man” (I hope you understand the meaning of this phrase; it is the Danish word for loosing a play with cards; he/she who ends up with “the Black Man” has lost the game – I am not sure whether this exist in the USA, under the same name).

… and, by the way, what I still completely fail to understand about the IBM warranty policy (and sorry; I have really, really tried hard!) is what is the economical benefit at the bottom line to IBM Corp., Inc. (the American mother company) if, as things looks right now, choosing the second of these two options:

a) Repairing the T42p here in Denmark under IWS, thus only having the expenses for parts and labor (as I will handle all the transport – since the “EZServ” in Denmark translates to CCR, which is fine with me),

or

b) When IBM Denmark as of now is denying this repair-in-Denmark, and in stead request me to ship the T42p to the USA for service at EZServ, then IBM Corp. “over there” will need to pay for all of the following expenses: 1) First shipping out an empty box for someone domestic in the USA (e.g. friend of mine to whom I have shipped the T42p over), and then 2) Paying for having this box being returned to the EZServ repair-shop, and then they 3) Need to pay for the repair the T42p (yeps, exactly as it would only have been the case in Denmark!), and finally then they (EZServ) will 4) Need to ship the repaired T42p/box back (again, at the expense of IBM) to my domestic friend in the USA.

So, please explain me which of these two repairs will be the cheapest, overall, to IBM Corp.? And tell me which one will leave the customer with the most satisfaction and which will be to the most benefit for IBM’s reputation? You see, I really don’t get it… the reasons for the IWS policy as informed by IBM Denmark.

<snip>

After a few days, and after a little “reminder-PM”, I received a reply…:

Subject: Re: We can try to help too..

Johan,

You are so very kind and considered in your correspondence - uniquely so. I have heard back from the EMEA team yesterday and wheels are turning slowly. They are investigating if they, as Lenovo can provide a concession to just get the warranty honored.

I've send a clarifying note last night. As understand we have a bit of a time offset, but I hope you would hear from someone today so that you'd have a contact there and some evidence of progress.

I'll respond to your other email when it comes in.

Best wishes - hang in there!

Then, nothing happened for a while… so then I had to move:

Subject: Re: We can try to help too.. [IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support]

Dear (someone),

Thank you very much for your kind mail of Wednesday Dec. 5, and - also - thank you very much for your kind comment about the “personal approach”, that I have chosen in my attempts to reach a solution in this “affair”; an solution which I still fully trust shall be possible - not the least after you stepped into this matter. To comment my reasons for having chosen this way: I continue to hope (and to believe!) in that particular you – who has obviously a clear understanding of “fairness”, and who I also believe agree in me that have already expressed in the thread: “Where there is a will, there is a way”- that you shall manage to work out a solution which all those who have followed this “story” can be satisfied with. Moreover, and although not of my personal primary interest, I also continue to believe that it would “overall” absolutely be to the benefit of all parties, if it is indeed possible to reach a solution which everybody will find restore the Worldwide high - and well justified! - Lenovo/IBM reputation, not the least when it comes to warranty coverage (“everybody” being both those who have followed this “affair”, or those who will later read the thread about it).

I am of course pleased to hear that “wheels are turning” in your end, although nothing has so far (yet?) has materialized here, in my end - no mails, no phone calls and no letters… nothing at all so far. I keep thinking (as another word says): “No news - is good news”. I hope that I won’t be mistaken or disappointed in this hope, neither.

As you will recall, IBM Support/UK approved (and several times subsequently continued to confirm!) the warranty-covered service-repair for my T42p, and I therefore handed it in at the Danish IBM-repair sub-contractor “ServiceGruppen” [SG]. After IBM Denmark unfortunately denied to honor the warranty, and therefore also denied to cover the repair expenses, I had to pick up the still-dead T42p from the SG. Because SG under these circumstances charged me with an invoice for: “Repair-inspection of laptop, service offer not accepted by customer, laptop picked up unrepaired by customer”, I now have this invoice (USD 120 !!) at my desk, due for payment at latest on Tuesday, Dec. 11. In the lucky case (and I admit that I am dreaming now!) that you and/or your colleagues at the Lenovo customer service in EMEA would be able to reach a conclusion before Tuesday, I would not need “waste” the USD 120, which I through no fault of my own (!) will otherwise be forced to pay – for having a still-dead T42p on my desk. Again, and to repeat: Take all the time you need, and kindly pursue everything which may perhaps work to solve this “affair”. I will rather pay USD 120 (although for “nothing”), than pay USD 1200 for having the T42p repaired as per the “not-covered-by-warranty” offer as received from SG.

I continue to appreciate so much your kind offer for helping this through a (hopefully!) “happy end”. And I shall continue to eagerly look forwards to hear from your again.

Thank you, (someone). I am so pleased that you are in the Lenovo customer care.

To this, I received the following reply:

Subject: Re: We can try to help too.. [IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support]

Johan,

Received your email. Email has been down for a day for our group in Baritslava, Slovakia where I'm seeking help - a regional headquarters for Lenovo.

I've supplied your contact information via instant message to the complaint team and asked for a call to you today. I recognize the situation is apparantly deteriorating since not only has your machine not been fixed, but they billed you for looking at it.

I would ask that you give this until end of day Monday, but please do let me know whether you get a call today or not at end of your day. I will then escalate to senior management in EMEA.

Thanks.

(someone)

The same day, I received yet a mail from “someone”:

Subject: Formal complaint is opened - CMT Case #PGxxx
Johan,

A quick update. I had a formal complaint opened and assigned - the CMT case number is PGxxx. Someone should be contacting you and it may help you to reference that number - I have doccumented all the pertinent information you have sent in that case, including the most recent development of the $120 charge.

I don't know about the response level for CMT cases in Europe, but the teams here have a 24 hour contact target - it may be 48 hours there, so I would imagine you should hear by Monday.

Best regards.

The next that happened was that I was a few days later contacted by a ”Client Satisfaction Manager” of IBM/Denmark (hereinafter abbreviated ”CSM”):

[quote="On Tue. Dec. 11, "CMT - Denmark Complaint Management Tools”"]From: "CMT - Denmark Complaint Management Tools" <CMTDK@dk.ibm.com>
Subject: Complaint PGxxx Johan xxx

I am complaint manager here in IBM, and I am working with the complaint you have sent to us. Could you please call me at (xxx)
[/quote]
Then, I of course immediately called when I got a chance, and explained the case to this ”CSM”. After having heard my explanation, Mr. CSM then went to speak to his IBM-colleague (who is residing in the same building, I believe), the abovementioned ”Country Warranty Manager” (hereinafter abbreviated ”CWM”). A while later Mr. CSM wrote me back – this:

[quote="On Tue. Dec. 11, "CMT - Denmark Complaint Management Tools”"]From: "CMT - Denmark Complaint Management Tools" <CMTDK@dk.ibm.com>
Subject: Complaint PGxxx Johan xxx

(first the text as originally received, in Danish – translation follows):

Complaint PGxxx, som omhandler garantibestemmelser for PC 2373 Q1U serial number xxx købt privat i USA, kan desværre ikke repareres på garanti i Danmark.

Udgifterne til SG i forbindelse med indleveringen, vil blive refunderet.

- then translation by me (quote):

“Complaint PGxx, regarding PC 2373 Q1U serial number xxx privately bought in the USA, unfortunately cannot be repaired under warranty in Denmark.

The expenses to SG* in relation to handling in [the laptop] will be reimbursed.”

(unquote)

*SG = ServiceGruppen, the Danish sub-contractor who handles the actual repairs for IBM/Denmark
--------
Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards
CMT - IBM Danmark
xxx, Kundeservicechef / Client Satisfaction Manager
[/quote]
Following this deeply regrettably, officially IBM answer, the outcome of the official/internal complaint, I then sent my last e-mail to the kind person at the Lenovo Customer Care Team in the USA, who initially offered me to help ”from within” to solve this affair, and who filed the complaint:

Subject: CMT Case #PGxxx- ends at person complained against! [IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support]

Dear (someone),

Thank you for your most recent two mails; both attached below. I am still very pleased that you want to take all this effort to try to solve this matter in a respectful and honest manner – thank you, again. Please note that I did not myself take the step to file a formal complaint against IBM/Lenovo (although I more and more don’t disagree with this); I had really hoped that this matter could be solved in a fair, honest, mutual understanding – some sort of ”Gentlemen’s agreement”, if that exist at IBM/Lenovo. However, I accept that step – filing a formal complaint – if that is what it takes to get this case solved, to my satisfaction.

FYI, today I was contacted by Mr. xxx, who has title as ”Client Satisfaction Manager” at IBM/Denmark. He had received the (”your”) complaint # PGxxx from ”someone at IBM”, as he explained. After asking him if he had made himself acquainted with the details of this case (and he answered ”yes” to this – saying he had read all that which he had received), I explained very politely that it was actually not I who had filed this formal complaint (but you), although I would naturally appreciate his help to solve this matter. Asking him about his view, it very soon became completely evident that he was NOT aware of the fact that IBM Support had numerous times, before handing in this T42p for repair; confirmed in writing this ThinkPad WAS covered by the IWS, and that the repair WAS to be carried out in Denmark, with no expenses for me. After speaking to Mr. (Client Satisfaction Manager, ”CSM”) for not very long, I was all in all left with the clear impression that he did not know the details in this case – maybe because not having the information available, or maybe just because not having studied the information he had received (?). In any case, he very well understood my explanation (and also expressed me his sympathy), and he also immediately agreed in the very ”unsatisfactory” circumstances which are so paramount in this matter. Anyway, this ”Client Satisfaction Manager” at IBM/Denmark has no (zero, NO!) authority AT ALL to alter the prior decision which was made by the ”Country Warranty Manager” (who is also with IBM/Denmark). The only person, in Denmark, who can apparently alter the decision of the ”Country Warranty Manager” is (yes, guess who?) – yes, it is the ”Country Warranty Manager” himself (??!!). OK, so Mr. CSM walks to the office of Mr. (Country Warranty Manager, ”CWM”) and the former ask the latter: “Mr. CWM, do you want to change your mind”? (Mr. CWM is now acting as his own objective judge?!). And guess what the answer is… yes, the answer is a big and clear NO. Mr. CWM will certainly NOT change his decision. His prior decision therefore still stands in effect: The IWS-warranty repair in Denmark, which is multiple times being confirmed in writing by IBM Support that my T42p is covered by, is (still) NOT honored by IBM Denmark. Period. Wow… surprise, surprise. And did they perhaps want to consider making an exception in this unusual case? Oh, no; no thank you, certainly not, good bye.

So (someone) – do you want to know if I am impressed with this “customer care” process at IBM Denmark? Or do you want to know whether I am satisfied with the way your “formal complaint” against IBM ends at the very same person as the complaint in reality is targeted against? To be honest… well, I am not really that much impressed – sorry to say. I remain to be pleased with your continuous kind and helpful effort, but – honestly – this whole “complaint process”; how much worth is it, if it just goes like this? I am sorry if I have wasted your time, (someone)… but I had really hoped that such an affair would “end” at the desk of a more objective (!) person, and a person who HAD the AUTHORITY to make or alter a decision. Otherwise – what’s the purpose of filing a formal complaint, as you have done? I just don’t get it. Sorry.

Well, the only small light in the dark is that Mr. CSM and Mr. CWM of IBM/Denmark has today agreed, that since this warranty-repair was initiated based on IBM’s accept of this WAS a repair which was covered by the IWS-warranty, IBM Denmark has therefore now offered to pay the USD 120 fee for the invoice issued to me by the repair sub-contractor, “ServiceGruppen”, covering: “Repair-inspection of laptop, service offer not accepted by customer, laptop picked up unrepaired by customer” (please see the below mail from Mr. CSM of IBM/Denmark, confirming this). So, even if IBM Denmark in this way (and for the first time) now CLEARLY confirm that ARE bound by the decisions made IBM Support, and take on the associated responsibility… then IBM Denmark still refuses to take on full responsibility for other of IBM Support’s decisions. It’s like IBM Denmark makes their own rules? Again: I just don’t get it. Sorry.

So – what to do now? Is this finally “end of game”? Lenovo/IBM Customer Care has exhausted all their options and possibilities? What would YOU recommend me do, now? Do you/we yet have any options left?

Your reply to the above would be highly appreciated. Thank you (someone). I wish everybody I had worked with in this case was as understanding and helpful as you are.

Kind regards,

Johan

As a last, final reply to the above mail, I received the following:

Subject: Re: CMT Case #PGxxx- ends at person complained against! [IBM/Denmark deny to honor warranty confirmed by IBM-Support]

Johan,

I opened the formal complaint to force the issue to be responded to more quickly (there are measured response times associated with the formal complaint).

The findings from the team are as follows:

Your PC is a legacy PC, it was a machine sold prior to the Lenovo aquistion and the warranty liability for the base warranty is owned by IBM - and the decision making for it.

The Upgraded warranty was determined to be valid in the country of purchase (US) and not international - this was IBM's ruling on their warranty policy.

As far as the information in the case, I had included the relevant transcripts of our correspondences.

The Lenovo team indicates they have worked this issue as far as possible in asking for the $120 to be waived, and that they cannot force IBM to honor the warranty in Denmark. My Lenovo contacts are unwilling to proceed further on the matter.

My advice on this would be to see if IBM UK will still honor the warranty at their depot, and consider shipping there to have this fixed. You can continue to fight this, but while you are doing so, your machine isn't getting fixed.

I am sorry that I can't get this resolved in Denmark for you.

Regards,

(someone)

End of story. Period. The small man loses. IBM/Denmark continue to deny warranty confirmed by IBM/Support.

What to do now? I am still trying (hard!) to avoid needing to go through all hassle associated with having to send the T42p all the way to the USA for a warranty-repair taking place there (apart from the significant cost of shipping forth and back an item insured for $1500, there is all the paper work associated with export out of Denmark, import into the USA, repair, export out of USA, re-import into Denmark without having to pay tax again here or there; a SERIOUS amount of the correct tax papers and forms and customs papers needed to be found, filled out correctly, stamped, verified, inspected and blah blah blah – not a simple matter, I should absolutely like to assure you). Actually, I have come to believe that the simplest and cheapest might be to arrange some sort of ”ThinkPad-vacation” here, elsewhere within Europe... and then hope the IWS will cover there.

… and what I still also cannot help wonder about is this: How are folks (IBM-customers) in other European countries treated in matters like this?? If a person in, say, England or Spain or Greece or Finland, buys a ThinkPad from the USA, is it then not covered by IWS in that particular country (although is is entitled to this, according to the IBM IWS-site)?? Where will the IWS actually be honered in such case?? Is this an IBM/Denmark issue only??

By now probably already a far too long post (sorry…), so I will rather leave comments to the many helpful posts above for later during the Christmas.

So far I remain quite a bit disappointed about IBM/Denmark’s warranty service/coverage (or rather: Lack of!), in particular as I have yet to see one single reference to any officially issued and publicly available warranty document, stating the IBM/Denmark’s policy which I have here learned “the hard way”. If I was bit more “mad” (angry!), I would probably consider (a bit more…!) seriously going to court with this case…because what I still completely fail to understand is why IBM/Denmark is not bound (legally) by all the prior written confirmation about the warranty coverage that I indeed received from the official IBM Support team before being overruled by IBM/Denmark? Oh, well – we shall see… I may become madder after New Year!

Finally: Merry Christmas to each and everyone of you – both you who have shared your advices and shown your sympathy in this thread – and also to all those who have “just” read this long, sad story. I still know for sure that there are going to be a (more or less) happy end, some day. And I also know - completely beyond any doubt! – that this truly outstanding, amazingly friendly and incredibly helpful ThinkPads community will be the (only!) reason why this will happen.

PS: If someone from the top-management at IBM should happen to read this, then you already very well know what I wish for my Christmas eve: That you (IBM!) would honor the warranty and repair my T42p. THAT would be the right, honest, fair thing to do… particularly on a Christmas eve!! I shall keep hoping and waiting for the old, kind “IBM Santa Claus” to show up here in Denmark tomorrow night!

… so get going, Santa-IBM!!

Best regards,

Johan

[kosse]

… and what I still also cannot help wonder about is this: How are folks (IBM-customers) in other European countries treated in matters like this?? If a person in, say, England or Spain or Greece or Finland, buys a ThinkPad from the USA, is it then not covered by IWS in that particular country (although is is entitled to this, according to the IBM IWS-site)?? Where will the IWS actually be honered in such case?? Is this an IBM/Denmark issue only??

I am planning to buy a Z61t from George (ajkula66). It is IWS eglible in Finland. However, I will call the local IBM support tomorrow and make sure. I'll post my findings here as soon as I can.

kosse