Thinkvantage Software is APPALLING

[Ken Fox]

Hi,

I'm new here and I stumbled onto this forum after some web searching related to problems I've been having recently with my two Thinkpad systems after various software programs were downloaded through the Software Installer. Seems like I'm having a lot of the same problems as others have reported here, such as the PC Doctor (uninstall) corruption and various Rescue and Recovery issues such as being unable to backup one system after one of the newer patches installed. Access Connections makes my T42 go into some sort of endless processor loop culminating in a green square called "CPU Utilization"=100% showing up in the system tray, accompanied by a lot of heat and a whiff like melting plastic before I taskmanager out the application.

I think I've pretty much solved these problems for now by overwriting my hard disks with backups, uninstalling software, and the like, although the T42 restoration is still a work in process.

Until fairly recently I just took whatever Lenovo wanted to give me and never had any problems with it, but lately their software seems worse than a virus!

Is it the general consensus that the Thinkpad software has deteriorated to the point where it should be avoided altogether? I used to think MS was bad, but this current crop of Lenovo stuff is some of the worst software I've ever experienced.

ken

[Kyocera]

Great first post.

[christopher_wolf]

Is it the general consensus that the Thinkpad software has deteriorated to the point where it should be avoided altogether? I used to think MS was bad, but this current crop of Lenovo stuff is some of the worst software I've ever experienced.

ken

Basically...No. The issue here is whether you are actually using them and customizing them to what you want to do. The software is not bad in and of itself, but it becomes useless if you either don't have a way to apply it or don't have a reason for it hanging around. If it is the latter, simply uninstall it, you can always install the latest version whenever you want later on, and that's that. Although I would recommend changing the post a little to make it, well, a little more professional-sounding and not as vague as the title now stands.

The ThinkVantage software suite has quite a few users, including me, that find it very helpful on a day to day basis. Further, it does not preclude me from having boot times at or below 30 seconds, Word 2003 or even AutoCAD 2007 opening in under 2 seconds, nor has it bogged down anything with bloat.

[Ken Fox]

Is it the general consensus that the Thinkpad software has deteriorated to the point where it should be avoided altogether? I used to think MS was bad, but this current crop of Lenovo stuff is some of the worst software I've ever experienced.

ken

Basically...No. The issue here is whether you are actually using them and customizing them to what you want to do. The software is not bad in and of itself, but it becomes useless if you either don't have a way to apply it or don't have a reason for it hanging around. If it is the latter, simply uninstall it, you can always install the latest version whenever you want later on, and that's that. Although I would recommend changing the post a little to make it, well, a little more professional-sounding and not as vague as the title now stands.

The ThinkVantage software suite has quite a few users, including me, that find it very helpful on a day to day basis. Further, it does not preclude me from having boot times at or below 30 seconds, Word 2003 or even AutoCAD 2007 opening in under 2 seconds, nor has it bogged down anything with bloat.

Maybe I'm not being specific enough and maybe not all of this is the "fault" of the people coding for Lenovo. However, in the last 2 weeks I've had the follwing happen to my two Thinkpad notebooks, all caused by stuff downloaded through the automated Thinkvantage Software Installer:

(1) After downloading a newer version/patch for TV Access Connections, my T42 essentially froze, could not log on to my wireless router (a new Buffalo), nor to two other brand new Linksys routers I bought for other purposes, and blocked my ability to use Windows' own wireless network program. The processor was running at 100% utilization and overheating (as in my post) and I would not be surprised if this would have resulted in processor or mainboard damage had I not shut off the system. Uninstalling and reinstalling the program 3 times produced the same results. Minus the processor overheating, similar problems developed on my X32 when it got the new program or patch. I figured out what was wrong through Windows Task Mgr, and then googling the exe file that was taking up all the cpu cycles. I know how to do this stuff; does the average buyer of Thinkpads know this?

(2) PC Doctor, also downloaded through software installer, corrupted the registry in my TP T42 making it impossible to remove programs through control panel. In order to fix this, I had to replace my drive's contents with a prior image and reupdate all the software, an hour long waste of my time. If I had not been careful to backup my system regularly, I'd be looking at a much bigger hassle up to and maybe including a format of the HD with reloading of all software including Windows XP.

(3) A patch to Rescue and Recovery made the program completely inoperative on my T42; had I downloaded and installed it on the X32, that might have happened on that system too.

(4) Replacing my drive's contents on the T42 was hampered by the very buggy prior version of R&R; the boot CD crashed 3 times before finally I got it to work.

I am not an IT professional, but have been building systems and playing around with PCs and notebooks since the early 80's. Because I have a lot of hands on experience with this stuff I'm generally able to resolve my own problems and to prevent many others from happening. I don't rely entirely on programs like R & R but rather use Ghost also.

But Thinkpads are not intended to be purchased only by IT professionals and people like me who have a significant knowledge base. The average person is going to accept whatever the Software loader tells them to accept, and they are then going to suffer the consequences and not be able to get out of their mess without assistance. Judged by that criteria, the current suite of Thinkvantage programs is not good, is terrible, in fact.

At least that is my opinion, and I'm not going to download most of what they offer in the future unless I really understand what it is and I need it. In the past, the proprietary software for Thinkpads, at the least, did not do harm to peoples' systems. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case, apparently.

ken

[christopher_wolf]

Yeah, just download what you need.

Although the PC-Doctor 5 issue, actually, has more to do with how the PC-Doctor people packaged it with the silent installer and not so much the delievery by Lenovo through either SI or SU2. The deleted reg entries are not something that should have happened at all.

[Ken Fox]

Yeah, just download what you need.

Although the PC-Doctor 5 issue, actually, has more to do with how the PC-Doctor people packaged it with the silent installer and not so much the delievery by Lenovo through either SI or SU2. The deleted reg entries are not something that should have happened at all.

The most remarkable thing about the PC Doctor issue is that you didn't even need to actually USE the program, just download and install it. The explanation for the registry corruption is not apparent, and without this forum I would not have easily figured out a solution. As luck would have it, I'd backed up my systems in late November, and my desktop is really my main system so little was lost.

If my memory is correct, that patch must have come in sometime within the last 10 days or so since my systems were completely updated before backing them up recently.

I don't know what the problem is with the Access Connections program but since it stopped working on both of my machines I have to assume the problems are fairly generic. Fortunately, the Windows wireless mgr program is adequate, and I don't plan to reinstall this app in the future.

Some of the TV apps presumably are useful for businesspeople but I'm beginning to think that the average person not using their laptop for business presentations or in a corporate environment, might do best by avoiding the suite all together at this point.

There have been times in the past when TV apps have saved my a**, most recently in France about a year ago when the ethernet drivers in my X32 became corrupted. I was able to boot into the service partition and to download new drivers, installing them when I rebooted into windows. Without that capability I'd have lost my ability to use the internet with the laptop for the remainder of my trip. These applications have potential but I think they should concentrate first and foremost on doing no harm, and leave the bells and whistles for a later time when they can fix some serious problems that have cropped up.


ken

[smvp6459]

Yeah, just download what you need. :)

Although the PC-Doctor 5 issue, actually, has more to do with how the PC-Doctor people packaged it with the silent installer and not so much the delievery by Lenovo through either SI or SU2. The deleted reg entries are not something that should have happened at all.

I'm in Ken's camp as far as this one goes...

There are some Thinkvantage utilities I really like: AC, APS, CSS, FS, PD, PM and Thinkpad Configuration.

However, when it comes to updating Thinkvantage utilities and drivers (that I use/need) Lenovo has really dropped the ball. For instance, installing a new wireless driver from Lenovo's site should not break Access Connections (a week or two later Access Connections finally gets an update that allows it to work with the new driver).

These are the reasons you install driver updates from your manufacturer; the manufacturer is supposed to test these updates for conflicts. Instead, it seems like Lenovo just passes these updates on without any kind testing. If I wanted these headaches I would get my drivers from Intel and every other component manufacturer instead of downloading from Lenovo.

It's a little crazy that I need to create a new image of my machine before I run any Lenovo update, for fear I will be left with a useless machine.

[christopher_wolf]

Well, the little bit with the wireless drivers goes back farther as well. Almost to the point where I still had active messages coming through the IBM Message Center and the IBM Update Connector. It takes time to update the codebase of AC to work with a new wireless driver, although it still isn't bad to release the reworked driver because you can either switch to Windows to handle wireless or use the UI from Intel's PROset.

I *always* image, or do a structure-only, backup of the system before I install any updates from anybody (Lenovo, Microsoft, various programs, etc); should something go wrong, and that possibility can occur no matter what "update" it is, a backup can potentially be a lifesaver.

[smvp6459]

Well, the little bit with the wireless drivers goes back farther as well. Almost to the point where I still had active messages coming through the IBM Message Center and the IBM Update Connector. It takes time to update the codebase of AC to work with a new wireless driver, although it still isn't bad to release the reworked driver because you can either switch to Windows to handle wireless or use the UI from Intel's PROset.

I *always* image, or do a structure-only, backup of the system before I install any updates from anybody (Lenovo, Microsoft, various programs, etc); should something go wrong, and that possibility can occur no matter what "update" it is, a backup can potentially be a lifesaver. :)

I understand that the new driver installation can break AC, but surely Lenovo should have known that and done one of three different things:

1. Wait to release the full Intel WiFi package until after AC was corrected and make sure the AC change deployed first on installation.

2. Release the full Intel WiFi package before the AC update, but provide a very explicit warning that it will break AC.

3. Release a stripped down version of the Intel WiFi package that just updates the bare WiFi driver and nothing else. Then release AC. Then release the full Intel package.

I know for a fact #3 would have worked for my X60's wifi setup. I'm still running the older AC but with the newer drivers because I figured out that you can unpack the download, go to the device manager, and point it to the new drivers for the updated wireless files.

Frankly, it seems that Lenovo took the package from Intel, said thanks, and put it up on SU for users to blindly download. Heck, I can go break AC if I want to by downloading directly from Intel. It's pathetic that Lenovo makes choices that break their own utility packages. Sure I can use XP's WiFi setup, but I don't like it and it doesn't suit my needs as well as AC...and the Intel UI won't even start on my setup - it is DOA on the X60.

[dfumento]

I have never had any problems and somehow I suspect that most people don't otherwise Lenovo/IBM would be inundated with support phone calls. Sorry you've had such a bad experience but everything seems to work well enough for me.

[Ken Fox]

I have never had any problems and somehow I suspect that most people don't otherwise Lenovo/IBM would be inundated with support phone calls. Sorry you've had such a bad experience but everything seems to work well enough for me.

I would have said exactly the same thing two weeks ago. I didn't use the IBM software updating service before I acquired my X31 and T40 (both now long gone) but certainly over a 5 year period or so, I had no problems whatsoever.

ken

[BillMorrow]

on my T60p, 200794U, AC has become corrupt, somehow..
i just now reloaded it because it soaks up 50% of cpu cycles under the guise of SYSTEM..
when i reinstalled ver 4.21 just now, i watched with task manager and once the old version of AC was removed, the cpu use went down to 1% or less..
after the reboot with ver 4.21 the cpu is back at 50% useage with nothing else at all running..

before the update tonight, running AC from the start menu would crash the video driver with spectacular kaleidoscopic colors requiring a hard reboot via the on button..

after the update i invoked AC from the start menu and it worked, but took at least 3 or 4 minutes to come up after the splash screen..

so, i tend to agree that something in AC sucks..
i can say "sucks" and "[censored]"

so, what the F... is going on..

when i plug in a pretty pristine original preload, it works just fine..

so, aside from wanting to know how to fix this short of a complete reload i concur with the general feeling in this thread that it is dangerous to just willy nilly run SU and let it do its thing..

"if its not broke, don't mess with it" is a label lenovo might consider slapping on that plastic bag all new thinkpads come wrapped in..


as to the vote above "Thinkvantage Software Worse than a Virus!" i voted no because it is NOT worse than a virus..
not yet..
and that is, as chris said, not a good subject line or vote subject..

this time it is to lenovo..
i don't want to excuse lenovo, but if we [censored] (i can say "[censored]" too ) enough, then they'll HAVE to fix it..

lenovo's stock is up ten cents today even though i can't see any activity in it during the day.. it is down overall, to $7.95 a share..

go out and buy 100 shares of LNVGY and come at them as a stockholder AND thinkpad user..

[egibbs]

I also voted that it's not worse than a virus, although I have always said that free software is usually worth exactly what you paid for it.

I had a problem with AC a couple months ago where it got corrupted as a result of an update, and at the same time it hosed my VPN software. It was a real bear to fix - I even wound up calling support (very rare for me and ultimately useless). They were very nice, walked me through unistalling and reinstalling AC and the LAN drivers (which didn't work), spent a couple hours on the phone with me trying various things, but in the end they basically threw in the towel and told me they would elevate the call and I'd get a call from a higher level tech in a few days.

After I got off the phone I decided to do a complete uninnstall of AC, followed by a manual hunt through the registry for any AC or TVT related keys. After nuking all the keys I was finally able to reinstall AC cleanly and my VPN problems vanished. Been working ok since.

As far as R&R goes it's been a piece of crap for as long as it's been around. The current version is actually way better than the old Rapid Restore, which was famous for destroying systems so thoroughly that only a full disk erase and format followed by a set of recovery CDs could bring them back. Still it takes me over 4 hours to run an R&R full backup, while TrueImage can do the same in about an hour. The main reason I keep R&R around is it's integration with the pre-desktop area which is very nice. But if I ever need it I only give a 50/50 chance that I'll actually able to recover from the R&R backup.

So understand that despite all the marketing hype around TVT it's basically freeware. There are better alternatives for most of the TVT products, but you have to shell out some cash for them.

Ed Gibbs

[GomJabbar]

after the reboot with ver 4.21 the cpu is back at 50% useage with nothing else at all running..

I saw the following in a thread in the ThinkPad Z Series forum. Could something similar be happening to you or other users experiencing this problem? I have not noticed this myself. I am using Kaspersky AV.

What antivirus are you running? My ACSVC.EXE runs 50% continuous IF CA antivirus has Real Time scanning enabled.

I have contacted CA multiple times with no resolution.....turning off the Real Time protection 'solves' the problem.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=34326

I believe the OP has a different issue with Access Connections. In my experience, the only safe way to upgrade the wireless driver package is to uninstall Access Connections first, upgrade the wireless driver package, then reinstall Access Connections.

[iatacs19]

I agree I find the software to be bloated and it does not add much more functionality. When I turned on my T60p and started to use it I could see 65 processes running. I uninstalled a bunch of applications I didn't need and got it down to 59 processes.

Some examples of this bloatware: I checked the network adapters and they both (wired and wireless) had extra Thinkvantage protocols installed, Wireless Intermediate Driver and something packet security Filter which are not very useful. Also all these Thinkvantage applications take over the way Windows works, I don't like it how it takes over the logon process and how long it takes to initialize the security chip.

It has just too much stuff running in the background. I wiped the hdd and did a clean install of XP Pro. I only installed drivers for all the IBM specific devices, BUT I did NOT install any of the applications. After my clean install I had 33 processes and it boots a lot faster. System overall is much faster and responsive, like it should be.

[Kyocera]

I think post for post there is more problems with access connections than any other software, I uninstall it immediately after a fresh install or on a new machine, don't need it for anything I do so and i do a lot of network troubleshooting jumping from network to network, windows works, I know there are those who disagree, but if it is causing so much headache get rid of it and that would go for any software that is causing problems.

My Vote: "I make things work for me the way I want them to".

"Biggest no brainer in the history of earth"(a quote from some radio commercial I heard the other day

[Ken Fox]

after the reboot with ver 4.21 the cpu is back at 50% useage with nothing else at all running..

I saw the following in a thread in the ThinkPad Z Series forum. Could something similar be happening to you or other users experiencing this problem? I have not noticed this myself. I am using Kaspersky AV.

What antivirus are you running? My ACSVC.EXE runs 50% continuous IF CA antivirus has Real Time scanning enabled.

I have contacted CA multiple times with no resolution.....turning off the Real Time protection 'solves' the problem.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=34326

I believe the OP has a different issue with Access Connections. In my experience, the only safe way to upgrade the wireless driver package is to uninstall Access Connections first, upgrade the wireless driver package, then reinstall Access Connections.

No, I have the same issue. I believe the exe file that was soaking up all the cpu cycles was the same (ACSVC.EXE) one.

For information I'm using AVG Free as my antivirus program so given the fact that people in the other thread were using different antivirus programs, I don't think the AV program is the culprit. AVG was not doing a virus scan when any of this was going on.

While this particular problem was evolving in my T42, I went into control panel and found that the Intel wireless driver, apparently the same one, had been installed twice and had two removal listings. I removed the 2nd one although I doubt this did anything at all since presumably a double install would just install over the first with the same files in the same locations. I then reinstalled AC and had the same problem, and reinstalled again, and rebooted each time. No difference.

What I experienced with AC sounds a bit more dramatic than others here have reported. My CPU utilization was 100% per the warning green tray icon (although maybe not all of that from ACSVC.EXE, and I was not running any other programs. I routinely uninstall bloatware on my systems so there was not a whole lot of extra processes running (like Norton, or firewalls other than the Windows one). Had I left the system running I have questions whether the AC bug would have damaged the system. The hot air coming out of the side vents was noticeably hotter than normal and there was the smell of plastic that has gotten a bit too hot . . . . .

[acasto]

I also voted that it's not worse than a virus, although I have always said that free software is usually worth exactly what you paid for it.

I assume you're talking about freeware for Windows? If not, well then I'm sure there's a lot of heavy hitters who would have to disagree, including IBM, Novell, Sun, and the NSA.

[tomh009]

I also voted that it's not worse than a virus, although I have always said that free software is usually worth exactly what you paid for it.

I assume you're talking about freeware for Windows? If not, well then I'm sure there's a lot of heavy hitters who would have to disagree, including IBM, Novell, Sun, and the NSA.

There is excellent free software out there for any given platform -- but like with commercial software, it's a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Off the top of my head, on my ThinkPad, I have excellent free applications like Firefox, Thunderbird, SQL Express, ActivePerl, NHC and RMClock, -- not to mention outstanding available UNIX imports like MySQL, Apache, PHP and WinMTR.

[acasto]

There is excellent free software out there for any given platform -- but like with commercial software, it's a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Off the top of my head, on my ThinkPad, I have excellent free applications like Firefox, Thunderbird, SQL Express, ActivePerl, NHC and RMClock, -- not to mention outstanding available UNIX imports like MySQL, Apache, PHP and WinMTR.

I agree, I just couldn't tell initially from you origional comment. I just get tired of fanboys on either side. One group says any software that doesn't have a price tag and a fancy box sucks, where the other group thinks any software that has a price tag is part of a scheme to own humanity and all it's knowledge. I don't quite no where the mac fanboys go, maybe a group of their own?

I tend to see a difference between open source software and propietary software in terms of their business models. Some of the best 'free' applications still have a cost in the grand scheme of utilizing them. Each groups appearance can also be affected by the competence of the end user. I think there is good software on each side and I use both Linux and Windows XP myself.

[rbi]

From my experience and what I have observed, ThinkVantage will corrupt the older models machine manufactured before Lenovo took over IBM PC department. I had T23 and downloaded ThinkVantage without uninstalling old version called softwareinstaller?. I had Blue screen and other syptoms like trojan attacking in my T23.

I am a newbie. But logically, I think ThinkVantage will be better off in T43 later models and T60 or later whatever models but not in old models of machines.

[YourOldBuddy]

Some Thinkvantage works well. Other not as well.

Software Installer and System Update are both buggy but both beat the hell out of hunting for drivers online. HP and Dell will lie about what hardware you have and/or not supply them. Wireless and AC seem to suffer more with thinkvantage update program software than other software.

RnR is also buggy but really really good once you know its weak points and use RnR only when they dont come into play.

AC is also somewhat buggy and shouldnt be in the default installation for end users. For larger companies and international companies it is invaluable.

Active Protection works flawlessly.

SMA is worthless and has never worked for me.

PC Doctor is ok. But for end users it is mostly good for finding faults in HD's.

Data disposal is ok and has value for some users.

Client security and password manager are not perfect but better than anything similar I have seen.

Image Ultra builder is really really good. Kind of hard to get going but once it is there it is really really good.

Havent used software delivery assistant or the rest.

[Ken Fox]

I have a friend who works for IBM; I knew he used a Thinkpad and I knew he was involved in writing software on contract for IBM customers, but didn't know exactly what he does nor do I now. We are friends because of another interest not having anything directly to do with computers.

I have been having some email exchanges with him lately so I asked him if he had anything to do with the "bloatware" that we have to deal with on Thinkpads these days and if he had anything to do with Access Connections, I was never going to speak with him again

This is one sentence I have lifted from his reply, which I will not further quote as I do not want to identify him:

"Not sure what bloatware you're referring to, but I'll guess it is the client install. Here at IBM, the first thing we do is wipe the HD from Lenovo. I bought a laptop for (name of his spouse; omitted) (G41 something) and left it stock. She doesn't care, and I don't have the time to wipe it clean."

He has more kids than the average Saudi prince has wives, which I'm sure explains why he had no time to "wipe his wife's Thinkpad's hard drive clean."

That about says it all, I think.

[GomJabbar]

I guess at IBM they run their ThinkPads with blank hard drives.

What you didn't say is what is in the company "image" used at your friend's place of work. They might not even be using Windows. Assuming they are using Windows, are you going to tell me that they do not use any of IBM/Lenovo's software or drivers?

Actually, AFAIK it is quite common to install the company "image" on all of one's company computers. IT wants to know exactly what is on everyone's computer. It would seem reasonable that IT would keep the amount of software installed to the minimum to reduce the need for technical support. No WOW, Duke Nukem, or Half-Life games. No SpongeBob SquarePants or Dilbert screen savers. Probably no Firefox, Opera or other browsers allowed. Likely the percentage of employees with Administrator account access is quite low to prevent employees from installing their own software. I know, given the choice, I wouldn't want my ThinkPad to be reduced to such bare essentials.

I suspect that the majority of those that want to strip their notebook to the bare essentials for speed, are usually doing it to increase the playability of their favorite game(s). Maybe a handful do this for CPU/GPU intensive production software. Other times this is done to leave more disk space for MP3's, photos and videos. I don't really fit in these aforementioned profiles. YMMV

[Ken Fox]

I guess at IBM they run their ThinkPads with blank hard drives.

One other thing he said was that even though it appears you are on an IBM website or ibm-derived website when you deal with Lenovo, download their software, etc. etc. etc. etc. ---- there is the mother of all firewalls in between Lenovo and the REAL IBM website(s) to isolate the former IBM (now Lenovo) employees from the current (aka "real") IBM employees. He said that this was a huge PITA to maintain.

[GomJabbar]

That I don't doubt. Got some pretty smart people that would like to try and breach it I'm sure.