design flaw in new T42s ? (Admin edit)

[steelie69]

Basically, after a couple weeks of usage the problem with the wrist-wrest clicking against the keyboard panel grows louder and louder, to the point where it annoys people sitting 10 feet away from the laptop.

If my right hand is pressed against the wrist wrest, and I press any of the arrow keys or the right shift key or the enter key, the keyboard now clicks with a SUPER LOUD "THUNK"

The replaceable keyboard panel is not secured correctly to the mainboard or case. Opening it up as per the tech manuals on IBM's site do not reveal any way to make things "tighter"

As time progresses things will only get worse as the metal keyboard plate wears away part of the plastic case (between the right control key and left arrow key). The more the case is worn away at that joint the more the keyboard panel is free to "pop" back and forth.

Two of my friends purchased a T42 (2378-FVU) at the same time I did, and both of them are having the exact same problem.

All of us are shipping our thinkpads back this week, although I'm sure the IBM techs will be unable to "recreate" the problem.

For shame, IBM. I thought the thinkpad was supposed to be the battle-tank of the industry. Maybe they sold out to the chinese for a good reason- the build quality on the latest models is PATHETIC, even worse than some Dells I have used over the years- and that is saying a lot.

[taphil]

Search the forum for "napkin" to find an easy DIY fix. I know if you expect not to have to resort to such a trick with IBM quality - blah blah blah - but it works.

[primedude]

Fatal design flaw? You use this phrase, but I do not think you understand what it means.

[steelie69]

"fatal design flaw" means that the machine is unacceptable for use by myself, and i'll tell any of my friends and business associates that the keyboard quality is PATHETIC. I will never buy one again, and I'll let everyone I know that they shouldn't buy one either. My ancient T23 has a keyboard 100x better than this thing, and it has been used and abused for over 3 years.

ask yourself this- if the "napkin" fix has been known about for over a year, but IBM continues to produce and ship T42s with this same problem, how much do you think IBM cares about quality control anymore?

answer- not at all. they just sold the division and couldn't give a rat's butt about the production line quality at ALL now. it's all over.

Fatal design flaw? You use this phrase, but I do not think you understand what it means.

[lvlolvlo]

let me help you guys a bit

I shall use Websters Dictionary found at http://www.m-w.com

Fatal - Main Entry: fa·tal
Pronunciation: 'fA-t&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin fatalis, from fatum
1 obsolete : FATED
2 : FATEFUL <a fatal hour>
3 a : of or relating to fate b : resembling fate in proceeding according to a fixed sequence c : determining one's fate
4 a : causing death b : bringing ruin
synonym see DEADLY

Design - Main Entry: 1de·sign
Pronunciation: di-'zIn
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, to outline, indicate, mean, from Middle French & Medieval Latin; Middle French designer to designate, from Medieval Latin designare, from Latin, to mark out, from de- + signare to mark -- more at SIGN
transitive senses
1 : to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan : DEVISE, CONTRIVE
2 a : to conceive and plan out in the mind <he designed the perfect crime> b : to have as a purpose : INTEND <she designed to excel in her studies> c : to devise for a specific function or end <a book designed primarily as a college textbook>
3 archaic : to indicate with a distinctive mark, sign, or name
4 a : to make a drawing, pattern, or sketch of b : to draw the plans for
intransitive senses
1 : to conceive or execute a plan
2 : to draw, lay out, or prepare a design
- de·sign·ed·ly /-'zI-n&d-lE/ adverb

Flaw - Main Entry: 3flaw
Function: verb
transitive senses : to make flaws in : MAR
intransitive senses : to become defective


Now to simplify let's simplify/make sense of this...

Fatal - Causing death
Design - To create, fashion, or execute
Flaw - to become defective

Now combined it seems like a defective creation in the item causing death. I can agree on Design Flaw...but fatal.......I don't really see it. I mean if you mean fatal as in IBM will loose customers over it.....I still don't see it as many users in this forum complain about their thinkpads yet they still would purchase another one in a heartbeat.

Please people let's not argue over a title of a topic...let's argue about why the heck are the Los Angeles Clippers doing worse than the Los Angeles Lakers?!?!??

[Kenn]

This whole thread is getting silly, fast. Obviously it's not a "fatal" flaw in any sense of the word, but the OP is annoyed at the problem and felt justified in resorting to hyperbole to get his point across.

I'm sorry the T42 doesn't seem to be working for you. I hear the napkin/business card trick works well, and hope you try giving it a shot before giving up the ghost.

[Steve007]

answer- not at all. they just sold the division and couldn't give a rat's butt about the production line quality at ALL now. it's all over.

I think you will find that we do care.

[SimonCC]

lvlolvlo - I think it is pathetic that you have tried to shoot this guy down like that. I am sure you are aware that in life, one uses exaggerations to put a point across like 'i could kill for a cheeseburger' etc. It still amazes how irate people can get when someone speaks out against the great IBM. This is a quality control issue and whilst people proclaim that 'ibm do care', their procrastination in dealing with this problem speaks volumes as to how far IBM have slid downwards in regard to quality. I have this problem also, as does everyone i know with the t42. I only hope the problem does not get worse over time.

[Steve007]

I only hope the problem does not get worse over time.

I can appreciate that not everyone is happy with the T42. There will always be an element of customers that are not 100% happy with a particular model we have released - that is natural! It’s impossible to please everyone and get everything right first time. Even if the hardware is perfect, driver issues can cause customers unforeseen problems! There’s just so much we have to get right and so many things that can go wrong as this thread clearly illustrates.

Regarding the T42, I find it frustrating that problems regarding the palm rest & keyboard on a certain percentage of machines produced were not present in the earlier T40/T41 models. Normally faults are present in the first model and then rectified with later models, we seem to have reversed this trend somehow! Remember the T20? Look at all the faults with this model (most notably the stress fractures that caused the casing to break in the area next to the right cursor key!). By the time the T22/T23 models arrived everything had been resolved.

I really hope the T43 and other models released towards the end of this year are problem free, but being realistic this just isn't going to happen. There is always going to be something wrong with a machine or they’ll be a common problem that affects new series/model, we just have to accept that this is going to happen and then look to a quick resolution. Of course this scenario isn't just restricted to IBM; Dell, HP, Sony and all the other large PC manufacturers are in the same boat. Surely it says something about IBM's stature when people expect ThinkPad's to be perfect? And let's face it, they are! It's just an tiny element of machines that have not quite met customers expectations.

[SimonCC]

steve007 - the fracture problem evident in the t20 did continue into the t22 series; most if not all t22s suffered from this fracture!

[Steve007]

steve007 - the fracture problem evident in the t20 did continue into the t22 series; most if not all t22s suffered from this fracture!

Ok fine, I did say by the time the T22/T23 series arrived as I wasn't 100% sure so I was half way there. I am not a walking encyclopaedia of IBM hardware you know

[beeblebrox]

Steve007 - ...oops, now someone from IBM finally agrees that there indeed was a stress problem on the T2x series?!?

I had major arguments with IBM repair folks, that my T20 crack on the right side next to the DVD drive was construction related and not abuse.
My T20 never left the office, and still it cracked. Nevertheless I was told, that I was the first incident with that problem and had to pay out from my pocket. Warranty did not cover that.

Am I correct in assuming that the creacking palm rest on my new T40p will finally produce a fracture as well, due to abuse (i.e. flexing it all the time by placing my palms on it while typing)?

Never mind...
... it is just that I am getting tired of IBM folks on the service phone who tell me that everthing is perfect and that I am (always) the first one who had a problem. I just think about the pulsating fan controller, that never was a problem until customers started to complain on Cnet/ZDnet. Suddenly there was a quick fix available. Makes me think...

[Steve007]

Steve007 - ...oops, now someone from IBM finally agrees that there indeed was a stress problem on the T2x series?!?

I guess it depends on who you speak to. I live in the UK and before I was working for IBM I reported that my T20 had a fault and the person I was speaking to acknowledged that this was an issue and arrange for the unit to be fixed.

Am I correct in assuming that the creacking palm rest on my new T40p will finally produce a fracture as well, due to abuse (i.e. flexing it all the time by placing my palms on it while typing)?

I own a T40p and I don't have that issue with mine. The build quality is perfect as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps it's the luck of the draw so to speak?

... it is just that I am getting tired of IBM folks on the service phone who tell me that everthing is perfect and that I am (always) the first one who had a problem. I just think about the pulsating fan controller, that never was a problem until customers started to complain on Cnet/ZDnet. Suddenly there was a quick fix available. Makes me think...

I can't really comment on what customer service departments in other countries say, but here in the UK I'd like to think that customers are not blown off with lies. When I was an IBM customer I had to report many faults on PC's & servers I'd procured and as I've always purchased the 3 year NBD support pack the service has always been excellent. Perhaps they are not so helpful with people who haven't paid extra $'s for 'enhanced' warranty as any fix will be down to IBM’s expense? I really can't comment as I can only speculate based on my own experience.

Going off topic slightly, just by reading this forum I think a certain element of people look for things to moan and complain about. I've lost count on how many times people have seen someone reporting a keyboard issue and they've then decided that they want to report their keyboard faulty as the Chinese/Thai/whatever keyboard is meant to be the best.

[syhead]

One thing I know for sure: IBM knows about the problem. They're shipping the T42's with a thin strip of foam bellow the keyboard (on the right lower side). That's an acknowlegment of the problem. If you doubt it, remove your keyboard and check it out.

I wonder if this can be corrected by simply changing the keyboard or if this is related to the chassis.

Anyway, I have corrected this problem with a very simple mod. My keyboard is firm now. See the description bellow.



Thanks K.Eng

I tried your suggestion and it worked. However, I was not happy with having something taped bellow the keyboard. THe heat could make the tape shrink and unglue. I know it's unlikely, but what if the floam starts moving around and reach the left side, where the processor is? Moreover, I was afraid that even the slightest rise in the keyboard might result in it touching the screen.

I found and alternative, and better way of fixing it. Instead of forcing the keyboard up I figured a way of forcing it down. All you have to to is:

1) cut a square 8 mm long x 1-2 mm wide. The thickness that worket for me was the thickness of a credit card. I used a prepaid phone card made of hard plastic.
2) Press the keyboard down by pressing the down arrow key.
3) Place the small plastic square in the small gap between the case and the keyboard frame. This gap is located right in front of the down arrow key.

If the square has the right dimensions, it should fit just perfectly and should not appear (unless you look very closely, backwards). Adjust the dimensions as needed. You have to find a material with the right thickness. Finally, you have to be very patient when placing the square..lit's tricky. I did it by placing its tip first and than slowly moving it sideways.

I hope that helps someone else! My keyboard is just perfect now!!!

[SimonCC]

syhead - you are talking about the flexing that occurs under the arrow keys. We are talking about the 'creaking' that occurs, usually on the right hand rest - this has nothing to do with the keyboard.

[Leon]

is there a fix for this creaking?

[syhead]

syhead - you are talking about the flexing that occurs under the arrow keys. We are talking about the 'creaking' that occurs, usually on the right hand rest - this has nothing to do with the keyboard.

I'm not sure... the post author mentioned the movement under the arrow keys and shift and enter keys. To me, that's the same issue. He said:

"As time progresses things will only get worse as the metal keyboard plate wears away part of the plastic case (between the right control key and left arrow key). The more the case is worn away at that joint the more the keyboard panel is free to "pop" back and forth. "

If you fix the keyboard the way I described, you eliminate the movement in the keyboard and the case near the arrow key should not wear out.

[beeblebrox]

Steve007 - I actually do not care much about Chinese/Thai keyboard (is there any difference? I never checked) or some cosmetics.
The notebooks are just to be used, and that is up to 14h per day.
What I find interesting is that, indeed there is a big difference in customer service depending on who you get on the phone line. Actually my repairs in Boston and Paris were fast, no-questions-asked and on time. Warranty goes thru the office contract anyway.
However I remember some incidents with Greenock folks and then some very annoying repairs during a project in Germany. That company was a contractor I was told, however the web page said it was an IBM company. Who knows...

It is, however, somewhat irritating that in my T40p are now up to 5 business cards stucked in that solve the flexing keyboard (cursors) and the creacking palm rest.
Not to complain with, but I am not entirely sure that business notebooks need business cards in order to work properly.

[sugo]

Isn't this similar to the keyboard flex issue? I just cut samll thick tape and put it under right arrow key so that the keyboard doesn't move again.

[daeojkim]

Hmm I am sorry to hear that so many people are complaining about some aspect of their thinkpad. But as we all know there will always be some lemons out there no matter what you do. You could spend $90K for a BMW M5 (yeah i wish I did) but there will be some that were not assembled correctly and cause problems.

Honestly my T42 is simply perfect, no creak, no dead pixel, no keyboard flex etc. May be it is well adjusted and tightened. I am sure that's the case for majority of the people who got their TP.

This is my first TP and it's great.

[SimonCC]

AHHHH!! i am so sick of people lamenting on about 'how there are always problems bla bla bla, what will be will be bla bla'. There is a general problem with flexing on the keyboard and creaking on the wrist rests period. And why do people always begin with 'i am sorry to hear people are experiencing problems' and then end with '..but mine is great' - ??!!?? It seems as though people are eithar IBM shareholders or post to let people know that yeah you might be f@#0ed but im not. I love my t42 but recognise its imperfections, and its because im such a fan that i want the next series etc to not have these faults, and for this to happen people need to wake up and speak up...or shall we begin hoarding the business cards and napkins for the next generation of T's???

[Kermy]

People just get defensive about these things. You bring up a bad thing, no matter how big or small and they go into, "but mine is great!" You see it everywhere, though I notice it a lot on mac forums. You bring up a bad thing about a Mac and they go "Must be just yours cause mine is great!"

[Hangfire]

This is my first TP 42 and it has been the BEST computer I have ever owned. I cannot say enough good things about my IBM laptop. I tell everyone I know how good it is. It's built like a tank!

[rhema83]

My T42 (2378-FVU) suffers from both the keyboard flex and palmrest creaking problems. I replaced the keyboard and while assembling it, stuck a couple of business cards underneath the keyboard around the arrow keys. That reduced flexing to a minimum. I have been trying various methods for fixing the palmrest creaking but from what I see, it's the soft plastic used as well as the construction which cause the problem. It might be rectified when the T43 is released, but I am sure that will add weight to the laptop if stronger and heavier materials are used.

[beeblebrox]

I suggest that IBM ships the T4x series (14") with a set of blank business cards (or generic IBM Thinkpad business cards). That's the simplest and easiest fix to the problem, and users can fool around with them until they have found the individual perfect setup.

[darrenf]

The "foam strip" under the right side of the keyboard is conductive, which leads me to think that it is a grounding strip, not a fix. It's in every T4x machine.

The corner of your palmrest between the right-control and left-arrow key should not be holding your keyboard down. There might be a mis-alignment if that is indeed happening. The tabs that hold the keyboard down on that side are located below the right-alt key and the down-arrow key.

The fit there is chronically poor and if you want to get pedantic, the fit on the left side (Fn-key area) is not perfect in most cases either. The solution is to remove the keyboard and flatten/extend the tabs I described above so that they reach higher and therefore push the keyboard down further.

I have done this on about a dozen T4x laptops with perfect results every time. Just be sure you don't break the down-arrow when you do it.

I posted pics a while back, so searchmy posts for those if you want visuals.

Good luck!

-darren

[Leon]

but, this fixes only the keyboard, but not the creaky right palm rest? please verify if this is true...

[darrenf]

Correct. The squeak is designed in by IBM for reasons that I don't understand. Take off the palm rest, look in the area of the squeak and you'll immediately see the cause. There are two plastic "ribs" in the palm rest that mesh with a matching rib in the top of the hard drive carrier. The fit is perfect and if any dust or grit gets in there you will hear the squeak.

The best fix I can see is to grind down the rib on top of the HDD carrier. I worry that the ones on the palm rest might be adding strength and that removing one of those would weaken the palm rest.

Of course, after this the palm-rest might "click" so putting a strip of thin tape down where the rib is removed is probably a good idea.

I caution that I haven't done this yet because the squeak doesn't bother me enough yet, but I'll report back once I do.

-darren

[syhead]

darrenf, your suggestion for correcting the keyboard issue seems great. I'll try it in case my own fix fails in the future. By the way, I wonder if the keyboard wouldn't bent back with time.

About the foam strip: you may be right, but it makes little sense to me. Why would someone glue a conductive strip for grounding purposes over a piece of metal? Isn't the metal conductive enough? To me, that's a "fix" for the keyboard issue.

I don't have the plam rest cracking either. I hope it doesn't start in the future.

The "foam strip" under the right side of the keyboard is conductive, which leads me to think that it is a grounding strip, not a fix. It's in every T4x machine.

The corner of your palmrest between the right-control and left-arrow key should not be holding your keyboard down. There might be a mis-alignment if that is indeed happening. The tabs that hold the keyboard down on that side are located below the right-alt key and the down-arrow key.

The fit there is chronically poor and if you want to get pedantic, the fit on the left side (Fn-key area) is not perfect in most cases either. The solution is to remove the keyboard and flatten/extend the tabs I described above so that they reach higher and therefore push the keyboard down further.

I have done this on about a dozen T4x laptops with perfect results every time. Just be sure you don't break the down-arrow when you do it.

I posted pics a while back, so searchmy posts for those if you want visuals.

Good luck!

-darren

[BillMorrow]

i finally decided to edit the title of this thread..

sorry, but meaningless hyperbole' is just not fair..

i pulled a new T42p (a 2373GVU, one of the those i have on sale) and pressed on the palm rest over the HDD..

no creaking, and very little "give"..

if it IS true that it starts creaking with heavy use and dirt, clean it..
if no noisy dirt is present, perhaps a thin plastic sheet as a lubricant between the palm rest bottom and HDD cage top..?

but this sure is NOT a "FATAL DESIGN FLAW" to me..