GPU Problem Fix *30K Pic*

[BobA]

I have several (12-15) T4x systems with the GPU video problem. I know this because when I don't get video starting it up - I press down on the GPU while powering it up and get video that hangs around for awhile.

Is there anyone on the forum that can fix these with some sort of guarantee that the problem wouldn't immediately return (I know a lifetime guarantee isn't possible ).

If so, what would someone charge to fix the systems I have if I send the motherboards alone? Would you want them in the base?

PM or reply on this post.

Jamiphar - any comments here are welcome ..

Thanks -- Bob

[virge]

Bob, I had a T40 with a GPU problem reballed by Superior Reball:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0261784738

The T40 wouldn't boot even with the GPU pushed down and I wasn't positive that this was a GPU problem. At worst, it would just cost me shipping (no fix-no pay). Took about two weeks including shipping time and came back fixed. They even replaced a missing keyboard key at no extra charge. I still have the T40 and so far so good.

This place has mixed reviews online, but I didn't have any problems. At $50 a shot with a 6 month warranty (I just noticed its now 90 days) I thought it would be worth the gamble.

[underclocker]

I don't have any experience with that vendor, but for $50, I'd try them (Superior Reball).

virge, did that include the full disassembly and reassembly of the T4x machine? That alone takes considerable time.

My only "repair" experience is swapping in a good motherboard from eBay!

(NOTE: Edited for clarity.)

[BobA]

I don't have any experience with that vendor, but for $50, I'd try them. Does that include the full disassembly and reassembly of the T4x machine? That alone takes considerable time.

I'll think about trying them - thanks for the thoughts.
Bob

[ajkula66]

James (jamiphar) has done re-balling on three machines for me, two of them being R50p units that share the system board with T41p and T42p. No issues, great work, both machines have survived shipping to Europe and are up and running as we speak, to the best of my knowledge.

My highest recommendations.

[virge]

I don't have any experience with that vendor, but for $50, I'd try them. Does that include the full disassembly and reassembly of the T4x machine? That alone takes considerable time.

I sent them the complete machine.

[BobA]

James (jamiphar) has done re-balling on three machines for me, two of them being R50p units that share the system board with T41p and T42p. No issues, great work, both machines have survived shipping to Europe and are up and running as we speak, to the best of my knowledge.

My highest recommendations.

Thanks -- Last I talked with jamiphar he wasn't doing as much of that as he was fixing backlights - which he is also good at. I'll check again.

[richk]

I'm sure if they are doing it for $50, they are reflowing, rather than reballing. There is no way to guarantee it won't happen again. The design of the machine with the graphics chip in the middle at the flex point is prone to failure. The 15" machines are less likely to fail (but not impossible) because the interposer card (the thing to extend the board in the larger case) takes some of the flex. I have about 75%-$80% success rate doing the repairs and I don't get many returns. Sometimes, things that look like they might be graphics chip problems are actually something else. Also, about 3% of the time, there is a total failure when the board is heated, probably because the board itself has a small crack at that spot. If I make that sort of repair I suggest that the user not carry the machine with one hand like a dinner plate. (horizontal). If you need to carry it with one hand, move it like you wre carrying a briefcase (vertical). That's the same advice I would give you with new machine. The later T42 boards and the T43 boards have the graphics chip held in place by little dots of an epoxy-like material. That makes the graphics connections less likely to fail, but harder fix and are less likely to get a good repair. Also, they can get a crack in the board near the graphics chip. If you flex the board too much, it will crack somewhere. If anyone wants to contact me (pm)about that sort of repair, I ask that you pay $10 up front for return shipping (priority mail). If I cannot repair it, there is no charge. I will do it for $50 and will refund the charge (not the shipping) if it fails in the first 30 days.

[poshgeordie]

A very useful recent discussion on this whole issue in this post:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=66346

In essence what was being said was that the BGA fails due to temperature hotspots over the graphics chip, which cause the chip to warp and solder joints to fail.

Therefore the BGA doesn't fail due to motherboard flexing, but due to hot spots on the chip causing joints to fail, and it's often only when the motherboard is flexed that this becomes apparent.

I also happened to comment on the cheap price that particular company charges for apparently reballing and reflowing.
Clarification on their exact procedure for that price would be helpful.

Boards with those red epoxy dots are a pain, since I've never managed to get them to work with just reflowing.

Also I would be interested to know how many failures Jamiphar gets with his technique of applying epoxy around the whole of the chip after reballing / reflowing.

<EDIT> I'm not implying any critisism of Jamiphar - I've got a huge respect for him - I'm only asking from a technical point of view.

[virge]

This company I referred to is supposed to be removing and reballing the GPU and not just reflowing. Is there anyway to tell which was done if I open up my machine to look at it?

[Harryc]

This company I referred to is supposed to be removing and reballing the GPU and not just reflowing. Is there anyway to tell which was done if I open up my machine to look at it?

It would be a lot easier to just send them an email and ask .

[sojourner]

Boards with those red epoxy dots are a pain, since I've never managed to get them to work with just reflowing.

I know the dots you refer too, there's a MOBO here which has them and it doesn't look to hard to get them out of there.

Considering you have a bad board already, why not try using a sharp exacto knife and with good light and magnification gently cut the GPU substrate free of the dots (or cut the dots free of the substrate)?

[richk]

sojourner: You are assuming I didn't try. They are hard to remove and little bits remain under the GPU.

[sojourner]

sojourner: You are assuming I didn't try. They are hard to remove and little bits remain under the GPU.

richk, the comment was referring to poshgeordie's post (above). From various posts it appears he's had opportunity to reflow a numbers of boards but the ones with red dots give a problem. I was trying to provide a possible solution.

And speaking of solutions, if the exacto knife doesn't work perhaps this will:
how about using Dremel with a thin sharp burr? I use one in the shop (sort of a bigger model of a dentists drill, you know, for your teeth ... but one must have a very steady hand because sometimes the burr will want to suck into the edge of what is being cut and I don't know if there are any traces close to the edge of that GPU board! Just another thought.

[agarza]

Geez, an apology to hijack, just to say I'm lucky to sell my T42p, now that seems the GPU problem is an issue. I used to carry my T42p with one hand vertically only.

[poshgeordie]

richk, the comment was referring to poshgeordie's post (above). From various posts it appears he's had opportunity to reflow a numbers of boards but the ones with red dots give a problem. I was trying to provide a possible solution.

Sorry I meant to reply Sojourner.
I'll give it a try sometime, but we've snowed under with other boards waiting to be reflowed that I'll have to wait until we have some slack time.
I'm hoping the scalpel blades we use will be sharp enough, but as you say it's going to be a delicate job no matter how it's done.

Interestingly enough, the three we have with the red dots around the graphics chips also have them around the north and south bridge chips.

[poshgeordie]

Got a T40 graphics problem today with the chip anchored down with those epoxy resin red 'dots'.

Attempted to cut a couple away with a scalpel blade, tried soaking the epoxy with acetone (the chemist said should work!) to no avail. it's hard stuff they use and I was in real danger of damaging the main board.

Decided to reflow anyway and this time success using slightly longer top heat.

Honestly I'm not convinced that dremelling or hacking at the epoxy with a knife will work, because of a real possibility of board damage and the fact that the beads actually go underneath the graphics chip.

Also came across another graphics chip today which was bonded a few mills from each corner with some black epoxy. Had a graphics fault still which reflowed fine.

One other thing that got me wondering today is that inevetably some of the units we get through are not graphics faults but because there's no obvious way of telling without having a working display.
There are some indications like the time the unit takes to switch off when the on off button's pressed - If it tends to take a few seconds then it may be OK; if it switches off straight away then there maybe another fault.

Anyone got any ideas on that?

(Apologies for highjacking the thread!)

[BobA]

poshgeordie - No problems from me. I find this all interesting. Maybe the admins would have a recommendation.
Bob

[DaveG11th]

My guess is that the dots are UV-cured adhesive rather than epoxy, since the former is cured with a repeatable application of UV energy at a given level for a more or less precise (and short) time. Also, there are many high-visibility red formulations of industrial UV adhesives, and a number of mixes specifically for standoff and thermal expansion control.

It looks as though only heat will cause a debonding of UV-cured types, but I'm no expert. In fact, I'm dropping this into the conversation only because someone smarter / more experienced might hopefully jump in.

Acetone or methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) apparently will soften some epoxies, but you'd almost have to soak the board for several days.

Maybe poshgeorgie's success with longer top heat is the result of slightly melting the bonding agent, whether UV or epoxy?

If it's heat that debond these dots, you might be able to shape a soldering gun tip... but you could penetrate only so much laterally physically and thermally (how much? don't know) or you'd be melting solder under conditions you don't want.

[vlyne]

poshgeordie’s experience suggest that the epoxy should be left in place when reflowing. In fact, I recall Ray referred to an article which suggested that placing “shims” under the GPU corners helped to keep the GPU from becoming warped/slanted during reflow. The only question in my mind was whether there would be sufficient heat flow to join back any fractured joints. The answer seems to be, yes, the solder does reflow (but perhaps with a slight bit more heat). So, the suggestion is to leave those red dots and epoxy alone – in fact they may help with the reflow.
Cheers

[poshgeordie]

When I tried with three others with red epoxy dots, I had no luck with getting them to resolder, but I'm not certain the actual fault was graphics because I couldn't get anything on the screen to confirm this.

The one I mention here was the fourth one and that did work. So assuming the other three were also gfx, then I've only had 25% success rate with red dotted ones!
It's kinda difficult to draw any meaningful conclusion from that.!

[rkawakami]

In fact, I recall Ray referred to an article which suggested that placing “shims” under the GPU corners helped to keep the GPU from becoming warped/slanted during reflow.

Post: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 120#446120

Article in question: http://www.circuitmedic.com/features/519.shtml

[cbuck1]

I'm a little unclear about this, but I think my R51 has the same problem you're talking about here. The screen started to fade in and out when it was plugged in, but not when it was running on battery. Then, the next morning, the screen was black. Rebooting does not help. The computer seems to be working in that it goes in and out of sleep mode, but I cannot see it on the network, possibly because it is not logged into a user or its network drivers are not loaded, and I can't see the screen to get the cursor into the login field.

Could this be my video chip having come unsoldered? Is that what "reflowing" is? Resoldering? Is this something I can try myself?

[poshgeordie]

Sorry to hear of your problems.

Three types of R51 graphics - ATI mobility Radeon 7500, Radeon 9000 and Intel extreme graphics 2.

If your R51 has the Intel graphics chip, then it's very unlikely you'll have a graphics chip fault.
However you may well have the fault with either of the ATI chips.
A quick look with the keyboard removed will reveal the the graphics chip and manufacturer.

To test whether you have a graphics fault, connect to an external monitor and see if that works.
Also try gently flexing the TP and see if the display comes on.
Ditto with pressing down on the graphics chip.

Note that depending on the bios settings, the ext monitor may not work (not sure why this is, I've found it to be so on a number of them through my hands).
Remove ac adapter, cmos and internal battery. Short out the cmos battery pins for 10 secs.
Still with no cmos battery, power up on a.c. (you'll be doing this 'blind'!) and after a few secs press F1 to enter bios.
Wait for 1 minute to make sure it has entered bios, press F9 to reset the bios to default (to make sure even though it should have done with the cmos batt out), and F10 to save config and restart.
It should now display in the ext monitor if there's no graphics fault.

The graphics chips have approx 669 tiny 'pins' (yeah sad - counted every one of them!!) under a roughly 30mm sq chip. These pins are known as a Ball Grid Array or BGA and actually consists of tiny solder balls:

There are loads of articles but read this for more information http://www.siliconfareast.com/bga.htm

What happens is that due to poor chip design, there are localised hot spots within the chip which causes the chip to warp and can cause some of the BGA balls to fracture from the motherboard.
The fault then appears when the TP's flexed or simply that the balls are no longer touching the main board.

The phrase 'reflowing' means to reheat the chip to melt the bga and hopefully cause the balls to be resoldered back onto the main board. Resoldering in this context means the same.

Have a look at the sticky in this section about how to do it:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=57021
This is a typical 'home brew' method which many people have successfully done themselves.
Also do a search for BGA reflowing on Youtube, since there are some great demos on how to do it.
If there's any sort of official warranty with your R51 then it needs to be returned to be sorted.
Also whilst a good number of people have sucessfully used this method, there are many others who have permanently burnt out their boards.

There are others here, typically jamiphar who offers a first class reballing and reflowing service for graphics chips. I did read recently though that he's inundated with work and may not be taking on any more for a while.

Reballing means removing all the individual tiny solder balls and renewing them before reflowing the chip BGA onto the motherboard.

Bottom line - thoroughly research the subject within these forums and elsewhere.
it's only then that you can decide as to whether you feel able to do it yourself.
HarryC points out very wisely that it's not for the feint hearted and there's considerable risk with permanent motherboard damage.

Let us know how you get on and get back with any questions you have etc.

Good luck!

[cbuck1]

Thanks, Nick. Before it went down I tried some software fixes and know that I've got the Radeon 9000. I'd like to just try pushing down on it, but am not sure where to find it. Can I get to it under the keyboard? Or do I have to do a grander disassemble? What does it look like?

Thanks,

Craig

[poshgeordie]

Craig - I'll confirm for certain tomorrow and see if I've got an R51 in stock.
In the meantime check out my signature 'screw locations'.
Go to section 7 fan assy. I think on the R51 the graphics is just below and to the right of the picture.

To remove the keyboard refer to the R50 / 51 Hardware Maintenance Manual:

ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mo ... 9t6190.pdf

and go to page 72 on removing the 4 keyboard screws, and how to pop it out etc. Quite straight forward.

[sparta.rising]

Remove the keyboard and its located under/next-to the trackpad cable. You can't miss it, it has the ATI logo on it.



Admin note: Added PIC warning in the original post

[cbuck1]

If you mean the chip directly under the cable circled in the picture, I guess mine has a heat sink on top of it so I can't see any ATI. Anyway, pushing down on the heat sink doesn't seem to make any difference. I also tried the chip behind it, just in case I misunderstood. No difference there either.

I suppose that doesn't mean reballing won't fix it, but I was hoping for a little reassurance that I'd figured out the problem.

[poshgeordie]

Pushing down on ATI chips under the long heatsink doesn't always work due to the rigidity of the heatsink, so you could still have a BGA problem there.

The only way real to be certain of the problem is to try and hitch up to an external monitor and see if there's any output there - school, college work?

Difficult one to call, but if you say that it appears to go through the motions of booting up into your OS (familiar pattern of the HDD light flickering on & off etc), then it does still point to that but it's not 100% conclusive evidence.