T60P VS MBP, now that it can run windows......

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Scratch · #121 Post by **Scratch** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:32 pm

That "yet" is a long time for me. I've had absolutely no luck in d'loading any experimental OS builds to get a feel for them on the T'Pad. I don't know why, but I can't seem to get a workable image to play around with.

taphil · #122 Post by **taphil** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:36 pm

I did it! I just bought a MBP. I said I would wait, but I decided to take my chances. Also, for two days I monitored how often I used the right-mouse button, and it really wasn't a lot. So ctrl+click in OSX or Ctrl+Shift+F10 in XP wouldn't be too inconvenient.

The first MBP I got was a "week 14" build. It had an insanely loud whine when running on battery. The whine changed tone slightly with display brigthness and a lot with CPU usage, and it was at a high pitch so that I could hear it in a quiet room (over my Pentium D 3GHz PC and 3 hard drives) from eight feet away. The whine was much quieter on AC power, but you could still hear it buzzing while sitting in front of the MBP from a normal distance. The display had slightly dark corners as mentioned with the T60 15" IPS panels in another thread here, but worse off it was very washed out at the bottom, as though there was too much backlight there, too bright. It also had two dead pixels in unacceptable areas on the screen. The mouse button wouldn't always work, it would click but nothing would happen. It wasn't burning hot though like MPBs I've seen on display at a few stores.

So I went to an Apple Store and patiently waited, but very irritated, for 1h and 20m to see a Genius. I got a replacement, which is also a "week 14" build....

It has no whine.

The screen is not washed out at the bottom.

The mouse button clicks properly.

There is a dead subpixel in the very lower right corner, within 0.5cm from both sides, very minor.

It runs shockingly cool. It's just warm, like 40 Celsius on the bottom. That's even cooler than the first MBP I got.

So it's nearly perfect, but it did come with a small nick or scrape on the cover.

The weird thing about this T60 vs MBP thing is that I have absolutely no problem spending $2500 for the T60p that's on sale. But I was agonizing for weeks whether to buy the MBP or not. I' undoubtedly think the the T60 is worth the money (for all the hardware and quality reasons), but for the MBP I can now finally come close to saying the same thing.

dxben · #123 Post by **dxben** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:51 pm

Scratch wrote:I only have about 10 days to make my decision on keeping the T60p or jumping back to Apple for another "Powerbook" this time a loaded MBP.

I prefer OSX to XP. My current PB G4 has been fantastic for the past 2+ years and now with the MBP's ability to run XP when needed it's a difficult choice. I won't have $3k to drop on a laptop for another 2 or 3 years.

My only need for an XP box is to run CAD/CAE apps when traveling or working from home. So Boot Camp and the upcoming Leopard release should be able to support that. I use the laptop for a lot of PhotoShop work and prefer the Apple environment for that.

I am always amazed that with all of the PC development that's gone on in recent years, only Apple has been able to create such a slick Suspend and Resume functionality for their machines. You close the display and the machine is in sleep almost instantly regardless of what's running and when you open the display it's waiting for you to type your password before you can get your hands to the keyboard. When the desktop pops your wireless/wired network connection is already working and your supended mail app is already downloading in the background. The design and responsiveness of the working environment never ceases to amaze me and this is on a lowly G4.

The T60p is a great machine and is the best portable IBM workstation that I've had to date and I've had a few, but the constant network notifications, the multitude of systray icons, the delays in reconnecting after Suspend/Resume, the need to run Diskeeper in the background along with Sophos, MS Defender, etc all detract from the pleasure of the machine itself.

My main concern with going down the MBP path is the OpenGL functionality with the XP drivers on the Apple hardware implementation. Can the system cooling function handle the additional load of the GPU running at normal clock speeds? They underclocked it. Can I use the CAD optimized v5200 drivers instead of the x1600's? I prefer the widescreen and always use an external mouse and SpacePilot/Traveler for CAD work so the single button in the XP environment doesn't phase me; the lack of expansion potential, the ExpressCard/34 only slot, the loss of FW800 do however.

Sorry for the ramblings, but it's indicative of my state of mind. I'm in a quandry on this one.

Is the graphics support via dual boot sufficient for high end CAD?
Should I stay the T60p path and wait for the next generation MBP?
Can the MBP handle the heat?

Any opinions?

Dude, if the Apple could handle the heat they wouldn't have underclocked it, its that simple. And you will not get the performance and more important visual accuracy of CAD and 3D apps with consumer x1600 drivers on a MBP. You *will* get that with the T60p vis the 5200 drivers.

Don't play games if that is your business, go with the Thinkpad.

By the way I finally got my hands on a MBP today at the Apple store. I was left sort of unimpressed. Don't get me wrong, if I couldn't have a T60, i would tak the MPB over a Dell or anything else. But compared to the T60, it was no contest. The MBP ran very hot, the lack of a 2nd mouse button seemed insane to me, and the physical dimensions, while thin, well it was just combersome, way too wide.

I am looking forward to my 14" T60p with the 5200 in it.

dxben · #124 Post by **dxben** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:08 am

Scratch wrote:You're right there. It's absolutely a function of the OS, but when forced to run all of the system maintenace utilities, license managers, etc, it's hard to slim windows down that much. I've never had to do anything to slim down OSX and the responsiveness remains consistent. The lack of required tweaking and maintenance is one of the main things that appeals to me about OSX as my primary operating system and I can only do that legally on an MBP.

I want to say that there are times it takes my T41p MINUTES to come back from sleeping. It drives me nuts!!

Scratch · #125 Post by **Scratch** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:21 am

I think you're right. This system is just too critical path for me to take any chances. The T60p has its quirks, but it's rock solid like all of my previous T**p's at running OpenGL apps.

The heat issues and intentional underclocking of the GPU make me a bit apprehensive of the MBP for now. I was fortunate enough to get a great sample of the 2623DDU with great components and I'd probably be a fool to return it.

Maybe the next generation MBP will be a more viable option and in the interim I've got a great system.

Thanks.

dxben · #126 Post by **dxben** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:58 am

Scratch wrote:I think you're right. This system is just too critical path for me to take any chances. The T60p has its quirks, but it's rock solid like all of my previous T**p's at running OpenGL apps.

The heat issues and intentional underclocking of the GPU make me a bit apprehensive of the MBP for now. I was fortunate enough to get a great sample of the 2623DDU with great components and I'd probably be a fool to return it.

Maybe the next generation MBP will be a more viable option and in the interim I've got a great system.

Thanks.

There you go, you really can't go wrong. When I found out Apple was underclocking their ATI chips, I said game over. That is so like Apple too. Finally, they actually get a gpu in their system that is not a model behind the top of the line PC option, and what do they do? They underclock it! LOL..

The great thing about the 5200 is that if you want to strip it of the certified drivers you can do it and revert back later. or build two installs, one with and one without the certified drivers, so that games will run faster (with the consumer drivers).

with apple, you can never get the certified drivers (unless they release them, but that would mean a price increase most likely).

#127 Post by **archer6** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:42 pm

dxben wrote: The great thing about the 5200 is that if you want to strip it of the certified drivers you can do it and revert back later. or build two installs, one with and one without the certified drivers, so that games will run faster (with the consumer drivers).

The solution you talk about above is EXACTLY the perfect scenario for me. I use OpenGL apps in my business. However, with the new T60P I have on order, I would like to run some games also. Especially since I travel all the time. I would like to build two installs as you suggest above. My problem is I do not know how to do that. Is that something that you might outline here?

Thanks
Archer

dxben · #128 Post by **dxben** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:47 pm

To be honest its easy. In my T41p (my T60p is arriving next week) I have two physical hard drives. The second one is used for gaming. Or you can just partition your default drive and install Windows again on that partition.

Windows will then give you the choice at bootup between the two installs. Its a cinch to do this.

Stripping the drivers requires some more attention, best place to go is to an ATI fansite, like Rage3D maybe? I forget where I got all that info but I suspect I will have to reaquire it again for this new chip. It shouldn't be too hard, but you should just find someone who's done it to be sure of the steps you need to take.

#129 Post by **archer6** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:04 pm

dxben wrote:To be honest its easy. In my T41p (my T60p is arriving next week) I have two physical hard drives. The second one is used for gaming.

Terrific!

Just what I needed to get me in the right frame of mind. As some of this I've already done, just needed to get on the right track here. In addition, I like your idea of 2 drives, as I hardly use the optical drive. Now the ideas are flowing!

Thanks so much for your quick reply to my request!
Archer

dxben · #130 Post by **dxben** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:31 pm

archer6 wrote:
dxben wrote:To be honest its easy. In my T41p (my T60p is arriving next week) I have two physical hard drives. The second one is used for gaming.
Terrific!

Just what I needed to get me in the right frame of mind. As some of this I've already done, just needed to get on the right track here. In addition, I like your idea of 2 drives, as I hardly use the optical drive. Now the ideas are flowing!

Thanks so much for your quick reply to my request!
Archer

No problem. And yes, I love having 120GB of 7200rpm drivespace in my T41p. Once you install all your software, you hardly need it. In fact I needed it so rarely I can't even find the darn thing right now and I do happen to need it

Best of luck..

southy · #131 Post by **southy** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:54 pm

christopher_wolf wrote:
pundit wrote: Is there yet another laptop out there that has the same specs, and level of coolness attached to it?
No.

There haven't been laptops that come close to the Apples and Thinkpads for a *long* time. The Omnibooks were pretty good, but HP axed them. NEC had some good ones, but they were pretty much single-model shows and didn't really carry over to other lines too well.

I really need to add the old Siemens Nixdorf (SNI) Laptops from before Fujitsu bought the branch. Must have been about ten years ago now.
I remember that any time I was at CeBit those years I always checked out two booths: IBM for Thinkpads and SiemensNixdorf for ..what did they call them? SNI mobile?
The special thing about them was that they always had those special features: detatchable wireless keyboard, chipcard-reader for identification, there even was a model where you could detatch the display and put it onto an overhead projector (well, that was before beamers were invented). And always best quality, of course.
The thinkpads were also interesting, of course; but the SNI were... different. creative. inventive.
And the best: Final assembly of SNI Laptops was in my hometown: Augsburg (near Munich in the south of Germany).

Of course I couldn't afford either one, but hey, I had dreams...

Well, then came the day when Fujitsu bought the whole show and now it's just plain standard mainstream crap. That really hurts.

But I don't suppose they were that well-know in the US, were they?

southy

dxben · #132 Post by **dxben** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:23 pm

I've never heard of the company itself let alone knew they made laptops.. Interesting..

craptacular · #133 Post by **craptacular** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:11 pm

I actually recently returned a MBP for a T60p (see my earlier post in this thread). My reasoning basically came down to this:

1. The MBP was exceptionally hot, particuarly when running on AC power. The T60p has been mentioned to run cool.

2. Adobe does not plan to release the Intel-compiled Photoshop until 2007.

3. I need *nix, and I need games

. It was either Apple's Darwin (BSD) + Bootcamp Windows or Windows + Linux (via VMWare). The former is non-mainstream + a hack, and the latter is mainstream + a kludge. I went with the latter.

I may revisit Mac-land next year after they fix the heat problems and the Intel-compiled Photoshop CS3 comes out.

southy · #134 Post by **southy** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:19 pm

dxben wrote:I've never heard of the company itself let alone knew they made laptops.. Interesting..

You must be joking: Siemens is one of the largest and oldest companies in the field of electronics and electrics. From nuclear power plants, clinical equipment, trains (I believe they have quite a big share in buildig the high-speed trains in Germany, the ICEs; also the Transrapid = the maglev, that was developed here), all kinds of telecommunication equipment, (their mobile phone branch - rather small, I believe about ~2-4% of world market - itself was sold last year to BenQ), all kinds of Computers (PCs, Servers, Infineon is their spin-off for chips), and on and on.

But I believe their share of the market concerning notebooks was never too big. Or rather: It was quite small.
But you can recognise them quite easy: The "real ones" (from before the sale to Fujitsu) have always (afaik) had this very strange turquoise color.

But I'm getting way off topic here, forgive me

southy

kwramm · #135 Post by **kwramm** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:14 pm

I don't think siemens ever entered the US consumer market, which probably explains why they are virtually unknown outside europe for building PCs.

I do have a fujitsu-siemens notebook now (e7010) , and while I don't know how the notebooks were before fujitsu joined, the one I have is built like a tank - it looks ugly as one too! but it's a pretty decent machine despite the age.

Currently fujitsu has a notebook available that is pretty close to the t60p, except it's bigger and heavier, but the rest is pretty much identical, trackpoint, ati v5200, core duo, etc.

http://www.fujitsu-siemens.co.uk/produc ... ius_h.html

donking! · #136 Post by **donking!** » Thu May 04, 2006 1:29 am

An interesting tidbit from macrumors.com, on a MacBook battery problem and its heat issues:

Christopher Price from PCSInfo.com reports that Apple is replacing early Macbook Pro batteries (serial numbers up to W8608) that are experiencing multiple failures.

Symptoms of battery failure include battery cutting off power to the system at very early stages, sporadic ampere hour reporting (coconutBattery), and the battery failing to respond when pressing the charging status button (after being charged and only slightly drained).

Early Macbook Pros have been plagued with numerous issues (flickering, whining, heat). Recently, users at SomethingAwful.com posted a link to an Apple Service Manual that showed that Apple was instructing its service technicians to misapply thermal grease on heatsinks. Indeed, the user reported that opening up the Macbook and re-applying the proper amount of thermal grease resulted in a dramatic drop in operating temperature. Webmasters at the site were subsequently met with a cease and desist order for linking to the service manual.

Some users fed up with their whining Macbook Pro's are massing to all call Apple's support numbers on Saturday, May 20th.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/05/ ... 5133.shtml

#137 Post by **archer6** » Thu May 04, 2006 9:22 am

donking! wrote:An interesting tidbit from macrumors.com, on a MacBook battery problem and its heat issues:

Christopher Price from PCSInfo.com reports that Apple is replacing early Macbook Pro batteries (serial numbers up to W8608) that are experiencing multiple failures

donking!
Thanks for this informative and valuable post. I enjoyed reading the information.

ok...ok...true confessions....I still want a MBP as well. Just trying to hold out for awhile until all the bugs are worked out.

Also important to note: the MBP will NOT be a replacement for my ThinkPad, as I have enjoyed many years of ThinkPad reliablity & exemplary performance. In my computing world there is room for both. I simply cannot imagine not having a ThinkPad.

This post helped me to stay focused on the wait and see plan

arher

#138 Post by **K. Eng** » Thu May 04, 2006 10:23 am

It seems that Apple's manufacturing people did a pretty bad job concerning application of the thermal compound.

Witness the resulting dramatic drops in temperature following proper application of thermal compound:

link

Warning -- there are big pictures in the Ars thread.

donking! wrote:An interesting tidbit from macrumors.com, on a MacBook battery problem and its heat issues:
...

cj3209 · #139 Post by **cj3209** » Thu May 04, 2006 10:36 am

dxben wrote:
Scratch wrote:I am always amazed that with all of the PC development that's gone on in recent years, only Apple has been able to create such a slick Suspend and Resume functionality for their machines. You close the display and the machine is in sleep almost instantly regardless of what's running and when you open the display it's waiting for you to type your password before you can get your hands to the keyboard.

From past experience (my old notebook was a 15" AL 1.67 PB), the 'slick' Suspend and Resume wasn't all that 'slick.' First of all, it ate up battery power while in Standby mode at a frightening rate and sometimes my apps would crash after a Resume. The fact that OS X doesn't have Hibernate is a real MINUS for me; I use it all the time, prefering it over Standby mode on our T43p. The heat was pretty excessive on the PB as well but that's part of the design as the AL exterior is supposed to allow the PB to cool.

My two cents.

#140 Post by **archer6** » Thu May 04, 2006 10:54 am

Scratch wrote:I am always amazed that with all of the PC development that's gone on in recent years, only Apple has been able to create such a slick Suspend and Resume functionality for their machines. You close the display and the machine is in sleep almost instantly regardless of what's running and when you open the display it's waiting for you to type your password before you can get your hands to the keyboard.

Yes...well said Scratch!

I have had the same experience as Scratch. My 2002 Titanium PowerBook G4 config is: 1GHz Chip, 1 GB ram, 60GB Hard Drive. By todays standards and compared to my T60, on paper it's a very slow machine. However in actual use of day to day apps in office w/reports, spreadsheets, presentations, and on the web it's not bad at all.
I have waited for years hoping that Micrososft & the PC mfgs would ceate a similiar system for windows based laptops.

Hello.....Lenovo.....Microsoft....anyone there?

donking! · #141 Post by **donking!** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:51 pm

For those looking for T60 alternatives, Toms Hardware ran an interesting piece about a company that imports electronics from Japan that are not available here.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/05/05/dynam ... interview/

The company is dynamism.com. With notebooks, they wipe hard drives and reinstall with English software. There are no Japanese only ThinkPads on their web site. Are there any such models right now? Perhaps, if there are, it would be possible to ask them to import one.

pundit · #142 Post by **pundit** » Fri May 05, 2006 11:40 pm

For the record: I ordered a MBP on Tuesday evening, and received it on Friday morning. I've been playing with it, and will definitely have quite a bit to say soon. I duplicated my T60p's spec in this machine, except for some RAM which I'm still waiting on.

For starters,
it's quieter
it's warmer
its screen is identically bright with a less prominent screen corner darkening (but still there)
- has a flexview-like horizontal viewing angle
- tiny vertical viewing angle
its speakers sound much nicer
its body is much less rugged and very-easily shows minor touches (think Ipod nano screen).

Basically, for now (IMO), it's a less-rugged T60p with a fan that doesn't come on as often. Mac OS is quite slick, and I have all my Unixy things up and running already.

taphil · #143 Post by **taphil** » Sat May 06, 2006 1:54 am

cj3209 wrote: From past experience (my old notebook was a 15" AL 1.67 PB), the 'slick' Suspend and Resume wasn't all that 'slick.'

It's not all that slick on my MBP either. It wakes up instantly which is nice. But it takes a while to go to sleep, sometimes 15-20 seconds, longer than my T41. Twice, I've shut the cover and quickly put it into my bag and hopped on the bus, only to later find when I got home that OS X had crashed while trying to go to sleep and the laptop was hot, hard drive running, and fans at full speed the whole way home while in my bag.

christopher_wolf · #144 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat May 06, 2006 2:09 am

taphil wrote:
cj3209 wrote: From past experience (my old notebook was a 15" AL 1.67 PB), the 'slick' Suspend and Resume wasn't all that 'slick.'
It's not all that slick on my MBP either. It wakes up instantly which is nice. But it takes a while to go to sleep, sometimes 15-20 seconds, longer than my T41. Twice, I've shut the cover and quickly put it into my bag and hopped on the bus, only to later find when I got home that OS X had crashed while trying to go to sleep and the laptop was hot, hard drive running, and fans at full speed the whole way home while in my bag.

Ouch, that is a bad experience....One of my goals is short suspend/resume times for just that purpose. I have gotten them done to 2-3 seconds now. I am also paranoid that something like that will happen and I will have no clue that my Thinkpad really is on; so I check now and then.

darrenf · #145 Post by **darrenf** » Sat May 06, 2006 2:13 am

pundit wrote:- has a flexview-like horizontal viewing angle
- tiny vertical viewing angle

This may have been a typo, but FlexView's purpose is to increases the vertical viewing angle, not horizontal.

If you have a small vertical viewing angle then the screen isn't IPS. The ThinkPad IPS screens can be viewed with minimal color distortion at some crazy vertical angles.

-darren

donking! · #146 Post by **donking!** » Sat May 06, 2006 2:16 am

Really? The horizontal viewing angles on my non-Flexview (TFT SXGA+) T60 aren't that good. I thought the Flexview was better in every direction?

astro · #147 Post by **astro** » Sat May 06, 2006 3:42 am

pundit wrote:I've been playing with it, and will definitely have quite a bit to say soon.

.... a less prominent screen corner darkening (but still there)

Oh, boy.

I am hanging out for this one.

pundit · #148 Post by **pundit** » Sat May 06, 2006 8:25 am

darrenf wrote:This may have been a typo, but FlexView's purpose is to increases the vertical viewing angle, not horizontal.

Let me rephrase that. The FlexView screen I saw had brilliant horizontal and vertical viewing angles. The MBP's screen matches it up nicely on horizontal, but much less on the vertical.

Does that make more sense?

darrenf · #149 Post by **darrenf** » Sat May 06, 2006 9:36 am

pundit wrote:Let me rephrase that. The FlexView screen I saw had brilliant horizontal and vertical viewing angles. The MBP's screen matches it up nicely on horizontal, but much less on the vertical.

Gotcha. And I don't claim to be an expert on FlexView. I read a description of the technology a week or so ago in a post on this forum that was very detailed. I can't find it now but perhaps someone can dredge that up and provide a link.

donking! wrote:Really? The horizontal viewing angles on my non-Flexview (TFT SXGA+) T60 aren't that good. I thought the Flexview was better in every direction?

Probably so. My focus is on the vertical problem because it makes photographic work so difficult. I'm sure someone who gives presentations with his laptop would be much more in touch with the horizontal viewing angle -- I just haven't paid attention to that.

-darren

Scratch · #150 Post by **Scratch** » Sat May 06, 2006 3:13 pm

I think YMMV is about the best disclaiming acronym yet to hit the web. It amazes me at times how dissimilar peoples' experiences with similar hardware can be.

My PB G4 15 1.25 is my "no CAD work to do" relaxing at home machine and has been a rock since the day I first booted it. I use the PB for PS work running CS2 with several RAW and scanning utilities along with a number of plug-ins. I also run Office on this machine with a VPN client to be able to access the workplace if there's a need when this is the machine I have along for the ride.

I am a big fan of the stability and progressive enhancements of the OSX environment and have rarely ever run into a problem that dumping a plist and a quick reboot didn't cure, though I did at one time have a defective mem DIMM replaced. I have, over time, found Office to be the most unstable piece of software on the machine and I avoid using it unless it's, well...unavoidable. Apple software has caused me few problems over the years.

My T'Pads have always been my "work" machines. Our various CAD/CAE packages only run well on Windows with solid OpenGL support on portable systems. I held out some hope for a time that Yellow Dog or an OSX (BSD) port would appear and be up to the task, but that has dissipated of late. T'Pads are the closest PC to a Mac to me...meaning I feel that the customization and software enhancements like Access Connections, Software Installer, Client Security, etc give these machines a better feel and, most often, the user a better experience than the vast majority of portable systems out there. I'm happy with my T60p, though I wish that Lenovo would step up quicker in dealing with the problems that these systems have. I think, as I had said in another post, that the service and support levels that we've grown accustomed to under the IBM banner appear to be an early casualty of the merger. I'm hoping for a full recovery because I like having the option to be very satisfied with 2 very different systems that are equally effective in their respective and sometimes overlapping arenas.

I'm with Archer6 in saying that this thread has kept me thinking and helped me to make the right decision in going down the T60p path and holding off until the MBP takes the next step. I think that both systems are suffering the pains of the rush to market and I don't need to live on the bleeding edge on both fronts. I have my "plowhorse" PB G4 to relax with for now and my "throroughbred" T60p pay the bills, but I think an MBP is in my future when the product comes into its own and i can live vicariously through Pundit for the time being.

T60P VS MBP, now that it can run windows......

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