Quick Poll: Integrated or Discrete Video Card??

[jazzys2]

Quick Poll: Integrated or Discrete Video Card??


Buying a Thinkpad t61 tonight and just want to see what you guys would do. I dont want a hot laptop.

[agarza]

I'd choose Integrated. I will buy hopefully a T61 this month with the X3100. Don't want a boiler running around.

But I think I'm quite a bit paranoid because I come from a noisy and hot T42p.

IT depends, if you will be doing standard stuff, no gaming, the X3100 is an excellent choice, IMO.

[ajkula66]

If you don't want a hot laptop you don't want a discrete GPU, that's the only response I can give you.

[Wiz]

I think a lot of people familiar with the Thinkpad T4x(p) believe that the only way to make the computer cool and quiet is to go with a integrated video card....well that is not the case. I had a T43p and found it to be completely useless because of the heat/noise so i was thinking the same way. The reason for the heat/noise for many of the Thinkpad models is more then just the GPU. Even if i found the T60 to be better then the T43p is was not quiet/cool enough. Now i have a T61p and for the first time i don't need NHC/Fancontrol utilily or a similar tool and it's very quiet and not very warm like the previous models. The most noisy part is the harddisk. Before anyone buy the integrated video for one reason only (which is heat/noise) i suggest they take a look at the T61/T61p models because so far i have not seen any T61(p) that is even close to the T4x models when talking about noise/heat. The company i work for have a lot of T61/T61p models and based on the experience with these computer i don't think there is any reason to fear that heat/noise anymore. The T61/T61p is something completely different when it comes to noise/heat. The T43(p) models is just a piece of junk. I even considered to buy a HP because of the noisy Thinkpads, but that is the T4x series and not the T61 models.

I might sound like a Lenovo sales person, but i'm just happy with a Thinkpad that finally don't drive me nuts because of the noise/heat. I would recommend to buy the new CPU's with lower voltage though since it's supposed to be cooler. The CPU in my T61p is the T9300.

[ajkula66]

Wiz wrote:

The T61/T61p is something completely different when it comes to noise/heat. The T43(p) models is just a piece of junk. I even considered to buy a HP because of the noisy Thinkpads, but that is the T4x series and not the T61 models.

Maybe the machines with 9300CPU, but definitely not ones with 7xxx series. I've had a couple of them and they were not any cooler than T43 units, actually the 15.4" WUXGA one that I owned was worse than any T43p I've ever had...

[Wiz]

Maybe the machines with 9300CPU, but definitely not ones with 7xxx series. I've had a couple of them and they were not any cooler than T43 units, actually the 15.4" WUXGA one that I owned was worse than any T43p I've ever had...

A T61 that is worse then the T43p make me believe there is something wrong with the computer. I have never seen a Thinkpad that is worse then the T43p and i work at the IT department so i see a lot of them.
Anyway the T9300 is supposed to be cooler then the T7xx and since it's not any more expensive then the T7xx (at least not where i live) i don't know why anyone would choose the T7xx. In this case i'm taking about the T9300 and the T7xx that is comparable.....some of the T7xx is cheaper, but those are slower and not comparable with the T9300.

The T61 with a T7xx i have seen so far is not even close to the T43p when talking about noise/heat. What T61 model did you own (XXXX-YYY)? Based on the posts in this forum it seems like the heat/noise for the T61 vary a lot between different T61/T61p's.

But anyway it seems like the integrated vs discrete video card is not the main reason for the noisy T61 models. The T61p (T9300) is very quiet and this models is supposed to have the GPU with best performance.....in that case this should have been the most noisy one which is not the case. So why buy the integrated one because of the heat/noise if this might not be the real problem.

[agarza]

So now I'm entering a new dilemma here.
As stated I want a 4x3 laptop, those are around about 760 bucks on Lenovo Outlet with the T7250 processor:

Processor
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T7250 (2.0GHz 800MHz 2MBL2)
Operating System
Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium
Screen
14.1 SXGA+ TFT
Memory
1 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory
Hard Drive
80GB Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm
Optical Storage
CD-RW/DVD-ROM Combo 24X/24X/24X/8X Max, Ultrabay Slim
Wireless
ThinkPad 11a/b/g Wi-Fi wireless LAN Mini-PCIe US/EMEA/LA/ANZ
Warranty
1 Year Standard Depot Warranty
Battery
6 cell Li-Ion Battery
Features
Bluetooth
NO
Video Card

$760
---

If I just would consider going widescreen it would have to be WUXGA resolution, which is no longer offered actually on Lenovo's Store, they have make dissapear the T61p to make space for the new models, am I right?

[ajkula66]

Wiz wrote:

A T61 that is worse then the T43p make me believe there is something wrong with the computer. I have never seen a Thinkpad that is worse then the T43p and i work at the IT department so i see a lot of them.

There was absolutely, positively, nothing wrong with that T61p which was a 6459-CTO, it ran beautifully and is to this day the only machine which ran Vista appropriately out of many I tested. It passed all the tests with flying colours, and if it were not for the absolutely horrible LCD I would've kept it. In all fairness, it cooled down by quite a margin when tested with XP.

In your dislike towards T43/p units you seem to forget one thing: other ThinkPads with high-end GPUs are known to run hot as well, T43 was just noisy more than most people cared to handle. Other laptops with discrete graphics are not cool either, so there is connection between one and the other.

Of course, things get better over time - at least some of them. I believe that machines with 9300 CPUs are acceptably cool, but would bet my last penny that the ones with integrated graphics will beat ones with discrete graphics when it comes to battery life. I haven't yet seen a laptop that would defy that rule, and I've seen quite a few, to be falsely modest on this occasion...

[agarza]

Yes, I agree with you ajkula66. Integrated graphics boost battery life. It could be that T61s with the NVS Quadro 140M would run cool but there's really not a contrary argument as to why those T61 would last the same time on battery power against X3100'ers.

I'm glad to say I have already decided to get a 14.1 4:3 T61 no matter what. Just saw the review on NBR:
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4028

This review is for the NVS 140M. Still the laptop is cooler.

So, I will be buying a new T61, 4:3 with T8100 processor.

The argument against the T43, definitely the T61 is COOLER and QUIETER. I'm right now typing with my T42p on my stomach, it definitely feels HOT.

As a sidenote: I think I found out why, apart from many other reasons of more weigh why Lenovo chose to ditch the 4:3.
For the positioning on the speakers. Think many people complained their laptops sound was screwed up because of the bottom placement of the speakers. Since Lenovo / IBM laptops were engineered to have the speakers located at the bottom (4:3) they just simply ditched them, along with so many other factors, such as the trend to move to WS displays and to reduce costs, etc.

Cheers for Lenovo, I think they really have improved Thinkpads, after soo much criticism on the media, public.

[Wiz]

In your dislike towards T43/p units you seem to forget one thing: other ThinkPads with high-end GPUs are known to run hot as well, T43 was just noisy more than most people cared to handle. Other laptops with discrete graphics are not cool either, so there is connection between one and the other.

Well a better GPU run hot of course so there is no doubt that the integrated run a bit cooler, but with the T61p i don't think it's a problem anymore because it's still quiet and the computer doesn't feel hot like my old T43p. I also see that the GPU is not as hot as my T43p. The reason why the T61p GPU run a bit cooler is probably not just because of the GPU, but i believe the T61p have much better cooling compared to the T43p. With my T43p it took very long time for the GPU to cool down which is not the case with my T61p. The T43p also have a very noisy fan. So i have not forgotten that high-end GPU's run hot, but as long as it's not too hot and too noisy then it's not a problem.

Of course, things get better over time - at least some of them. I believe that machines with 9300 CPUs are acceptably cool, but would bet my last penny that the ones with integrated graphics will beat ones with discrete graphics when it comes to battery life. I haven't yet seen a laptop that would defy that rule, and I've seen quite a few, to be falsely modest on this occasion...

No doubt that the battery life suffer a bit from the discrete video adapter, but that is another issue. If battery life is very important the ingrated might be a better option, but if buying the correct T61/T61p model heat/noise should not be a problem anymore.

My whole point is that noise/heat doesn't necessarily have to be a problem with a discrete video adapter, but that doesn't change the fact that integrated will give longer battery life and run a bit cooler.

[dr_st]

If you don't need a dedicated card (for instance, for 3D games or 3D rendering applications), go with integrated.

It's really that simple.

[neenee]

Exactly.

[agarza]

My whole point is that noise/heat doesn't necessarily have to be a problem with a discrete video adapter, but that doesn't change the fact that integrated will give longer battery life and run a bit cooler.

Yes, you're right. T61 cooling system is far better than the T43p, that's why doesn't matter which GPU you choose, but new people who were buying a T61 they are better off buying 45nm processors instead of 65nm.

Point being, the X3100 offers a good balance between gaming capabilities if you will be using 4+ years-old games. And running on battery the X3100 squeezes about 15-20min more than the NVS I think.

[pianowizard]

One more reason for integrated: you can safely use the 65W AC adapter, which is smaller and lighter.

[agarza]

One more reason for integrated: you can safely use the 65W AC adapter, which is smaller and lighter.

Does using this 65W adapter allows you to economize your electric house bill $$?

[flypenfly]

The X3100 cannot power a Dual Link DVI through the advanced Mini dock which is why I went with the NVS140.

[qviri]

One more reason for integrated: you can safely use the 65W AC adapter, which is smaller and lighter.

Does using this 65W adapter allows you to economize your electric house bill $$?

The AC adapter only draws as much power as the notebook needs (disregarding conversion losses, which vary a touch). Using the same notebook with a 65 W or a 90 W adapter will draw virtually the same amount of power from the wall outlet.

Anyway, notebooks are extremely unlikely to cause a large enough impact to be really noticed on the electricity bills. Check the power rating on a fridge, or a microwave.

[Paul Unger]

I think a lot of people familiar with the Thinkpad T4x(p) believe that the only way to make the computer cool and quiet is to go with a integrated video card....well that is not the case. I had a T43p and found it to be completely useless because of the heat/noise so i was thinking the same way. <snip> Before anyone buy the integrated video for one reason only (which is heat/noise) i suggest they take a look at the T61/T61p models because so far i have not seen any T61(p) that is even close to the T4x models when talking about noise/heat. <snip> The T43(p) models is just a piece of junk. I even considered to buy a HP because of the noisy Thinkpads, but that is the T4x series and not the T61 models.

Sorry, Wiz--I have to disagree . . . I guess you haven't seen my machines (you can "see" them in my signature). The T61 with discrete graphics (NVS Quadro 140M) runs ~15C hotter than either of my T42s (XGA and SXGA+): 58C (the coolest it ever is at idle [i.e., not doing anything for ~5 minutes]) vs. 42C (working [i.e., browsing / word processing / etc.]). Basically, I don't think it's fair to lump the entire T4x line with the ill-fated T43(p). If I had known that a 140M equipped T61 would run so hot, I would never have bought it--I'm not a gamer and cool is important to me! Despite having a T61, I find myself using the T42s more and I think the main reason is the heat the T61 produces. Integrated graphics from now on for this user! Living and learning . . .

[agarza]

Paul is your T61 equipped with the X3100?
I think the temps you're seeing on your machine are either:
1) Dust on the fan
2) Bad interface heatsink vs CPU
3) An inherently hot processor (ej. T7xxx series) 65nm processors. Although I'm not sure..

Of course we cannot blame all the T4x to be hot and noisy, but just for the record. My T42p after some hours of usage it becomes hot on the bottom, the fan if not controller via TPFan is always running nonstop (CPU & GPU undervolted), so I'd say a T42p is innherently hot. I've used for a couple of hours a T42 with Radeon 7500 and it also become hot, the fan was very loud, this was a stock machine, with nothing tweaked on it.

I took the plunge and ordered a new T61 NIB. It has the T8100 processor, a sole 1GB of RAM and the X3100 which Is what I was looking for. Price maybe was not a bargain, but It was the only way for me to get it shipped to Mexico.
I hope I'm not disspointed by the build quality and durability on the machine, as it will replace my T42p.

[Wiz]

Sorry, Wiz--I have to disagree . . . I guess you haven't seen my machines (you can "see" them in my signature). The T61 with discrete graphics (NVS Quadro 140M) runs ~15C hotter than either of my T42s (XGA and SXGA+): 58C (the coolest it ever is at idle [i.e., not doing anything for ~5 minutes]) vs. 42C (working [i.e., browsing / word processing / etc.]).

Well i haven't tried every T61/T61p so cannot speak for all of them as i said, but those i have seen is much better then the T43 series. Cooler and maybe more important more silent. But as i also said i would recommend the newer CPU's even if that has nothing to do with the GPU since the voltage is lower. I don't find the heat to be such a big issues as long as it's not very hot and as long as the computer is silent.

Basically, I don't think it's fair to lump the entire T4x line with the ill-fated T43(p). If I had known that a 140M equipped T61 would run so hot, I would never have bought it--I'm not a gamer and cool is important to me! Despite having a T61, I find myself using the T42s more and I think the main reason is the heat the T61 produces. Integrated graphics from now on for this user! Living and learning . . .

I never did lump the entire T4x series. I was mainly talking about the T43(p) which is the worst. All i said is those that have experience with the T4x series might think that the only way to go is integrated which is not necessarily true. That doesn't mean i lump the entire T4x. I had a T40 as well that is much better then the T43(p), but read that other people with T4x models complain about the noise so it's not only the T43. The complaints i read about is mostly T42(p)/T43(p) if that sounds better.

I only speak based on my own experience with the T61(p) and wouldn't post to say this just to chew the rag. For those that prefer integrated i can understand that, but discrete is not necessarily the same as heat/noise as some Thinkpad users seems to think.

Just as there are differences between the T4x models there are obviously differences between the T61 models as well. The T61p i got is very silent and supposed to have a high-end GPU so there are more reasons then the GPU for the noise/heat. Just like it's not fair to lump the entire T4x series it's not fair to lump all the discrete models either.

Maybe i didn't specify clearly enough that when i talk about the T4x models that doesn't necessarily mean every single T4x model created, but in general i find the T61 models to be cooler and much more silent then the T4x series.....except maybe the T40's. So maybe i should say T43(p), T42(p) and some T41(p) models.

[agarza]

Yes Wiz, I think mainly the problem with the T4x series is the fact that the heatsink design is not able to pull enough quantity of BTU's the processor/GPU emit so the fan need to run most of the time because there's not enough dissipation of the heat produced.

T6x series on the other hand, the heatsink had 2 exhaust exits, the other one where the LPT1 port used to be on the old T4x series, and think because it also 'cooled down' the Northbridge and the heatsink design was improved the temperature will quickly be lowered.

Maybe some older and initial T40 models were quieter because the fan blades were not loud and/or did not have the pulsing sound it then latter was to be found on newer T42/T43 models.

Also, I remember some good old post regarding tweaking the heat dissipation design on the T4x via cooper sheets so that heat generated on the Southbridge, just below the Wireless Card would be dissipated. I think this is also a factor in which the temperature is not lowered fast enough and hence the fan is running almost all the time on newer T42/T43 models.

So hopefully when I get my new machine I will be able to confirm if the T61 series are quieter (definitely it will), newer and improved cooling design, cooler processor at 45nm.

--

I will post here or maybe on a new thread later comparisons of battery life, on my new T61, with X3100 graphics, how much minutes do I get on Vista versus XP. I will be wiping the HDD to install XP after testing Vista's battery life on the T61.

So we could come up with the conclusion that newer T61 models are quieter, not necessarily because of the graphic card solution: integrated vs discrete, but because the heatsink solution is FAR superior than the T4x.

[Wiz]

T6x series on the other hand, the heatsink had 2 exhaust exits, the other one where the LPT1 port used to be on the old T4x series, and think because it also 'cooled down' the Northbridge and the heatsink design was improved the temperature will quickly be lowered.

So hopefully when I get my new machine I will be able to confirm if the T61 series are quieter (definitely it will), newer and improved cooling design, cooler processor at 45nm.

So we could come up with the conclusion that newer T61 models are quieter, not necessarily because of the graphic card solution: integrated vs discrete, but because the heatsink solution is FAR superior than the T4x.

Yes i think it has to do with more then the GPU as well even if the GPU might be part of the problem. No doubt that integrated generate less heat, but also as you said the heatsink and CPU play a part. A 7200rpm is supposed to be a bit warmer then the 5400rpm as well, but never really compared so cannot say for sure.....it's just something i read. Others seems to have a different opinion about the T61 so they are obviously not all the same regarding heat/noise.

I found the noisy fan and none working heatsink to be the main problem with my T43p. It had the noisy and pulsing fan that was spinning very fast, but still not able to efficiently cool down the computer so it took ages to cool down the GPU to 55-60c.

I'm sure you will be happy with the new computer. If you play some newer games maybe the video adapter might not be very good, but except from that i guess the computer should be fine. I think it's a good idea to choose the T8100 CPU. If you are going to use Vista i guess adding some more ram might be a good idea. Using XP 1gb might be enough.

[Non-Thinker]

This discussion about heat/noise is very important to me too, but what about performance?

Will the integrated graphics system drive dual external monitors?

Will it run games of the Real Arcade/Big Fish variety (i.e., some video acceleration needed, but not super-demanding 3d videos like the high-end games)?

Will integrated graphics run applications like Photoshop Elements and Premier Elements without choking? (Again, I'm not talking about high-end graphics, just the sort of thing that most of us do to our digital images and video clips now and then.)

If yes to all of the above, is there a significant speed penalty?

To put it in other words, just what extra performance do you get from the discrete graphics system in return for the extra noise and heat (and cost too, which sometimes matters)?

[agarza]

I'm sure you will be happy with the new computer. If you play some newer games maybe the video adapter might not be very good, but except from that i guess the computer should be fine. I think it's a good idea to choose the T8100 CPU. If you are going to use Vista i guess adding some more ram might be a good idea. Using XP 1gb might be enough.

Yeah, maybe I'll play some older games like NFS Most Wanted / NFS Porsche Unleashed / San Andreas at this moment.

Playing San Andreas on my T42p without AC power really sucked very hard the battery it was drained very fast, hope my new machine hold up for 4+ hours in normal conditions.

I plan on wiping Vista maybe after a week of receiving the laptop. I just want to benchmark the difference in OS and specially battery life. consider upgrading anyway to 2Gigs later in the future, guess when gaming the RAM would be used dramtically by the X3100. Don't know at this moment.

[Paul Unger]

Paul is your T61 equipped with the X3100?
I think the temps you're seeing on your machine are either:
1) Dust on the fan
2) Bad interface heatsink vs CPU
3) An inherently hot processor (ej. T7xxx series) 65nm processors. Although I'm not sure...

As I noted above, I have the discrete NVS Quadro 140M in my T61. I also purchased before the new 'low voltage' chips were available in Canada (or before I was aware of them!) so I have a T7300. But my T61 CPU rarely goes over 42C. It's the GPU that idles at 58C (and regularly hits the mid- to high-60s). I cleaned my fan / air vents last week, but there was nothing of note that came out--no dust bunnies, that's for sure. I'm beginning to think it's a bad interface between the heatsink and the GPU, but am not really ready to go the route of reapplying thermal paste. Until then, I'll just have to keep my complaints to myself.

I never did lump the entire T4x series. I was mainly talking about the T43(p) which is the worst.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the distinction between your references to "T4x" vs "T43(p)". I guess it all comes down to personal experience. My T42s run cooler than my T61. Can't say much more than that . . .

[Wiz]

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the distinction between your references to "T4x" vs "T43(p)". I guess it all comes down to personal experience. My T42s run cooler than my T61. Can't say much more than that . . .

Well i guess i didn't specify clearly that T4x does not inlude all of them and i understand it can sound like that. I basically have experience with the T43(p) and T40 from the T4x series, but also read some complaints about T42 series regarding heat/noise. I guess there are differences between T43(p) models as well. My T43p get very hot while others say it's not that bad. If i play games on the T43p the CPU is somewhere between 85c and 93c. The GPU is a bit cooler, but above 70c. When the computer is idle again the CPU cool down pretty much in a few minutes while the GPU take a very long time to cool down while the fan is spinning very fast. When idle the GPU is about 55c-60c when power management is set to max performance.

[Paul Unger]

I basically have experience with the T43(p) and T40 from the T4x series, but also read some complaints about T42 series regarding heat/noise.

I've read some discussion regarding the use of two different fans in the T4x series: short (CPU only?) and long (CPU and GPU?). Could this account for some of the variety in the T4x family? Is there the same kind of thing in the T6x family?

[Wiz]

I've read some discussion regarding the use of two different fans in the T4x series: short (CPU only?) and long (CPU and GPU?). Could this account for some of the variety in the T4x family? Is there the same kind of thing in the T6x family?

Maybe that could be it. I read the same discussions, but have no idea what kind of fan my T43p or the T61p have. Not sure if this is the same thing for the T61(p). Obviously the heat/noise can differ pretty much for the same models so there must be some differences.

[Pascal_TTH]

I'd choose Integrated. I will buy hopefully a T61 this month with the X3100. Don't want a boiler running around.

But I think I'm quite a bit paranoid because I come from a noisy and hot T42p.

IT depends, if you will be doing standard stuff, no gaming, the X3100 is an excellent choice, IMO.

Reductive vision !!! I own enough Thinkpad (see below) to tell the T61p is the more powerfull, the more cool and the more silent.The only down side is only 4 1/2 hours battery life with 9 cells. I skip T42 and T43 witch were *useless* evolutions of T4x except for Flexview. They were danm much more hot for to few extra power.


I agree no games or no 3D applications => GMA


A20p, A21p, A30, A31p, T40p, T41p, T60p, T61 and T61p,

[s1148625]

One more reason for integrated: you can safely use the 65W AC adapter, which is smaller and lighter.

Does this mean that I shouldn't use a 65W AC adapter with a T400 with discrete graphics? Might it damage the computer?