ThinkPad X61 vs. Dell XPS M1330

[rleo25]

Ok guys... don´t blame on me, please have a little bit of mercy.... but I´m gona ask it: What would be your choice if screen quality, brightness and colour rendering where a must? I am balancing options between the X61 and the M1330, reviewers say build quality has improved in Dell´s. Should I sacrifice the screen options for a better built Thinkpad?... have into account that I have had a T42, a R52 and have now a T60, wich I have changed every year, until now with so short life span quality has not been an issue, so what would be your advice?

[bananaman]

If screen quality, brightness, and color rendering are a must, the choice is academic. The winner is the Dell M1330. You are comparing M1330 option of a 13.3" 1280x800 330nit LED backlit screen driven by Nvidia GeForce Go 8400M GS with the X61's 12.1" 1024x768 150nit TFT screen driven by Intel X3100 integrated graphics.

A typical review comment on the M1330 screen: "The picture and brightness you get is just amazing! It offers 330 nits of brightness and is simply gorgeous to look at. It's glossy in nature so you'll get some reflection, but the rich and bold colors that come with having this type of screen finish is worth it."

A typical review comment on the X61 screen: "The screen lacks defined blacks and good contrast. Vertical viewing angles are not that good -- quickly inverting colors at the slightest change of angle from being perpendicular to the screen. Since this laptop will be close to you during normal use, this shouldn’t be too much of a problem."

The X61's screen is not it's strong point!

[politicorific]

one thing to consider is the glossy screen. Personally I love the matte screen of the X61. If you will be using the device indoors and outdoors you will not have as large of a problem with reflections if you go with the X61. Personally I have not had nearly as much eyestrain after switching from a glossy display. I can finally focus on the screen - not my reflection. It also is much easier to clean the screen - rubbing alcohol on cotton works just fine without any damage. I hope matte screens are never done away with.

So bananaman, I would disagree with you. Measuring luminosity consistently is a very difficult task - just ask anyone attempting the calibrate projectors to determine which is the brightest.

[tomh009]

If screen quality, brightness, and color rendering are a must, the choice is academic. The winner is the Dell M1330. You are comparing M1330 option of a 13.3" 1280x800 330nit LED backlit screen driven by Nvidia GeForce Go 8400M GS with the X61's 12.1" 1024x768 150nit TFT screen driven by Intel X3100 integrated graphics.

Of course, the graphics chipset really makes no difference to the screen quality or colour reproduction, and the DPI is within 10%. The biggest differences are the LED backlight (which provides the greater brightness) and the glossy screen (love it or hate it).

[pianowizard]

What would be your choice if screen quality, brightness and colour rendering where a must?

Another vote for the Dell. I have owned seven X-series Thinkpads with the most recent one being an X60s and all of them had horrible displays. I owned a Dell Inspiron 700m, which is sort of a precursor to the M1330, and its glossy screen was far more satisfying (crisper and higher contrast). I never used it outdoors, but when I used it indoors I never noticed my own reflection unless I looked for it. And of course, the 1280x800 resolution of the 700m and the M1330 gives you 30% more real estate than the X-series' 1024x768.

[vkyr]

Here is my vote for the Dell related to Lenovo price politics on european markets...

- ThinkPad X61s UK383GE, C2D L7500 1GB 80GB VBThinkPad X61s Intel Core 2 Duo L7500 processor (1.60GHz) 1GB 80GB 12,1 1024×768 XGA, GBIT WLAN BT FPR, no opt.drv 3 years send-in VB, price €2215 till €2425,03 —> that’s up to $3.333,20. Rebates? No build to order in europe and no rebates like all the time for the US market, so in europe ~€2400 is the bitter price you have to pay.

- Dell XPS m1330, LED-TFT, C2D 1.8 GHz, 1 GB RAM, 160 GB HDD, BT, FPR, WLAN-N, webcam, some Dell rebate etc. 1+3 on-site warranty, price €950 + VAT = €1150,50 —> that’s up to $1.580,84 and so an actual individual special offer/deal with a bunch of rebates.

…that’s the huge and clear difference. Thus no need to ask, since you can in europe buy two XPS M1330 for the price of just one X61/X61s/X61T, I would give the Dell a try out.

In the USA and other countries where Thinkpads are much cheaper (usually half the european price) it's a matter of taste and what you need and get for the money.

Beside the price differences in some countries, the Dell will have the better luminant display (even it has a glare panel) and overall the better specs.

[dfumento]

If it is important to you, you should check battery life differences and weights between the two machines. The X60 I use with the extended life 8-cell battery weighs little yet lasts hours.

[Antioch]

The Dell does seem to have a better display simply because of the backlighting (IMO). However, you're comparing apples to oranges here, folks. That machine is an XPS series machine (according to the above link). XPS = eXtreme Performance Series. X-series = light and mobile machine. Yes, the new X-series machines are powerful but they are still designed as a light and mobile machine and shouldn't be compared to XPS machines.

What I mean is: if you're just looking for a good screen, get the Dell. But why are you comparing an XPS with an X-series? (No, in ThinkPad world, X-series does not mean eXtreme-series, heh )

[egnatius]

I agree that most Thinkpad screens leave much to be desired in regards to screen brightness (I've owned an A21m, a T30 and a T43 and none those screens have had a particularly bright screen).

Is this also true for the Tablet models? I think I've read some posts here commenting on how the Multiview/Multitouch screens are much brighter and easier to read.

Any Tablet owners care to chime in?

[tomh009]

Here is my vote for the Dell related to Lenovo price politics on european markets...

Given the size, weight and battery life factors, isn't the M1330 more closely comparable to an X61 rather than an X61s?

[tomh009]

Is this also true for the Tablet models? I think I've read some posts here commenting on how the Multiview/Multitouch screens are much brighter and easier to read.

Any Tablet owners care to chime in?

The UltraLight screen is slightly brighter at 180 nits; the tablets are in the 180-200 nit range depending on the supplier.

[vkyr]

Above I wanted to show first of all the big price differences between the X-series and those Dells for some countries. On the US market I believe there isn't such a big difference in the pricings than in europe.

Related to the X-series panels only the X61 Tablets have really good TFT panels. - The X61/X61s panels are instead only average, the X61s UltraLight is brighter than those of the X61, but otherwise not much different and so doesn't offer better contrasts or viewing angles at all.

And yes, the Dell XPS 1330 would be best compared with a plain X61, but with somehow comparable specs, the X61 models are actually also still expensive in europe with ~1900 - 2100 EUR.

[thaug]

I feel this is a reasonable comparison, as I was going back and forth myself. If the delays on my X had been much longer, I would have canceled and ordered the Dell. They are different in ways that are not exactly comparable, but I feel the main advantage to the Dell is the cramming of all this stuff in to a small package. It's still over 1 pound heavier than my X61s, though.

Certainly when talking about the screen, there is simply no comparison. I'm pretty sure that the X62 will have a LED backlit screen option when it most likely comes out next July/August.

[dfumento]

See www.lenovoblogs.com
It has an entry about the Dell computer.

[smoothoperator]

I just returned my POS X61. It had the bezel issue, slow broadband connect, loose palmrests, and buggy thinkvantage software. During a thinkvantage bios update the thing crapped out and the computer went dead. I sent it in for easyserv repair and in the techs notes it says that they replaced the system board twice and still couldn't revive the system. To me that means the tech does not know what he is doing if he is replacing system boards and still cannot fix the computer. At the end of the day, I told them I did not want the computer and they are refunding me. I am sure others have had better luck. For me dealing with IBM (tech support) these past months has been a terrible experience. BTW I got the 4 year onsite. I will be getting the Dell m1330 now hopefully there is an improvement in support, quality, and overall stableness of the system.

[Antioch]

Heh, I've had *worse* experiences with Dell tech support - yet the same. An on-site repair man has replaced my main-board 5 times and still cannot fix the problem. What's worse is Dell refused to give me a replacement or refund. Lenovo in a similar situation, however, refunded me the FULL purchase price of my 3-year old T42. Dell on the other hand did nothing to fix my problems, all they wanted to do was send another tech out and install board #6. At that point I hung up the phone and refused to buy another Dell for a few years.

[smoothoperator]

you had your mainboard replaced 5 times, thats terrible....If dell is bad who should I go with? I am trying to find a <14" laptop. I know HP is crap we used to have those ~2001. It seems as a whole this whole industry has gone in the crapper. I am now confused of where I should put my money for my next computer. All I know is I do not want to go through this again. I thought by buying the best warranty that it would basically be a guarentee that things would be fixed properly in a timely manner. I guess my only option now is the Thinkpad Reserve, now if they would invite me.

[Antioch]

Dell may be better now. The machine is 4 years old, and the last I talked with the repair people was a year ago.

I even explained to them that if they replaced it once and the problem still existed maybe it was not the fault of the board. To replace it twice was pushing it - but to do it 5 times and still think it was the board was absurd. But I guess that logic just doesn't make sense...

[vkyr]

5 times? - Well some of my buddys here in germany who use Dell notebooks got new ones from Dell just after two repairs.

One of my friends who had one of these 15" Inspirons wasn't happy with the TFT display panel light distribution etc., Dell service changed him the panels 2 or 3 times for try outs (Samsung vs LG panel etc.), but there was always something he disliked about the panels.

Next time someone from Dells escalation team called him and offered him instead free in exchange, a new much better equipped 15" Latitude model with a finer and higher resolution TFT panel and a another new 3 years onsite warranty. So that was a great deal and service from Dell and I would say that's very good service.

Maybe the Dell service, as the Lenovo service too, is slightly different in quality from country to country.

[vkyr]

I've forgotten to mention, that in germany you have the right to get your money fully back by law, after 2 or 3 times of a fruitless repair.

So if some vendor or dealer isn't able to fix the hardware problem on warranty after 2 times, it's your decision to return the hardware and get your money fully back or to give the vendor service another chance. - But 5 times like in your case is pretty much unacceptable!

[khyew]

I'm a X61 owner and I'd have to go with the Dell here. The X61 screen is quite awful. It lacks contrast and has a narrow viewing angle. Colours become inverted or washed out when deviating from the screen's perpendicular plane, especially when looking at it from above or below.

None of the screen's drawbacks can be attributed to the matte finish, as I have extensively used a T42p that provides excellent contrast and an incredible viewing angle that maintains colour and contrast at all but extreme angles. I can only assume the X61's terrible screen is the result of cost or weight-saving measures.

The screen quality is good enough for work, and an acceptable sacrifice to make for the X61's other features. Just don't expect to impress your friends when showing it off. But if image quality is a priority for you, avoid the X61.

[Antioch]

Maybe that's because your T42p had FlexView?

Look, the X61 screen is a TFT screen and as such comes with the disadvantages of it. For all intents and purposes the viewing angle is a moot point, in my opinion. You're going to be sitting behind the LCD at the proper angle regardless, right?

The contrast ratios are fine, the only problem I've had with the 3 ThinkPads I've owned is the lack of brightness - hence I'm getting an UltraLight this time.

Personally I hate the gloss screens. Yes, they look very nice, but the gloss is incredibly annoying. I don't need a rear-view mirror on my laptop to see what everyone around me is doing, or to have a bright glare reflection from the ceiling lights shining in my face.

[vkyr]

Well, they are all TFT screens no matter if in the 12", 13.3", 14" or 15" range. The differences lay in suppliers panel quality and the overall availability in mass production for specific panel sizes of the market.

Further it plays an important role of what type a panel is, so if it is a TN, AFFS/IPS, MVA/PVA etc. panel and if it is available in 4:3 or widescreen ratios and if it has matt or glare coating finish.

The X-series 4:3 12" TFT panels (except those of the X-series Tablets) are just poor TN-panels, which do stem mostly from suppliers like TMD (Toshiba M a t s u s h i t a Display Technology), Samsung, Hydis and CMO (Chi Mei Optoelectronics).

The 12.1" UltraLight panels do stem from TMD and are slightly thinner and lighter, but again are just poor TN-panels. Actually the only really good X-series TFT panels are those of the X-series Tablets from Boe Hydis, which are based on IPS/AFFS TFT-panel technology.

Note that most LCD panel suppliers (LG-Philips, Samsung, CMO, TMD, CPT, BOE Hydis, Sharp, Quanta, HannStar, AU Optonics and SVA-NEC) have often different 4:3 and widescreen 12" panels among their product line, which are slightly different in quality and price.

So are there any better plain 12" 4:3 TFT panels on the market? Yes there are, but those are much more expensive and maybe not available on overall huge mass quantities. The Sony VGN-G11 for example also has a 12" 4:3 matt TFT panel, but this one is much superiour in viewing angles, contrasts and luminance (220 - 240 cd/m² aka nits) than the X-series panels.

IMO the weakest part of the X61/X61s notebooks is still their TFT panel quality, which is at best only average, if not to say poor for the overall price factor and the rest of the notebooks quality. - But beside the mediocre TFT panels, the X-series is very fine and still one of the best mobile/portable subnotebooks around.

[gdavis]

vkyr,

wow, thanks for posting such great info! You always have these incredible knowledge to share and it really is appreciated. It's really helpful to understand what's behind some of these products and the aspects which make them great (or not so great).

The changes in the display technologies recently seems to be happening rapidly in some cases and knowing what can help when making purchase decisions can really inform us.

keep posting away...

[vkyr]

Well, maybe I should add, that most other vendors and competitors also suffer from poor TN-panels in their notebooks. It's generally a common problem nowadays to get something better than a TN-panel for notebook LCDs.

The majority of vendors goes with glare widescreen panels in their notebooks (even for many business models), since that is what the panel market offers in mass quantities. Also there aren't much AFFS/IPS notebook LCDs produced by panel suppliers, since these are costy and the profits therefor are lower by the industry.

All in all most notebook LCDs are just TN-panels in matt or glare fashion nowadays, some offer better coatings and filters, which enhance the viewing angles and contrasts etc. slightly. Some offer more powerful or two instead of just one backlight (depending on the panel size) and others go with LED backlighting instead.

Finally it's nowadays more difficult to find good/better notebook LCD panels, especially in 12" - 15" TFT panel segment.

[snife]

The X61 Tablet might be worth considering as it does have much better contrast screens than the regular X61.

[rleo25]

mmmm... thanks for your advice my friends, it has cleared many doubts, I wonder why Lenovo doesn´t take into account a so overwhelming opinion on their displays, surely if I knew the next Thinkpad X series or even the T ones would be built with LED backlit displays I would wait half a year... That would be a really nice shift, more important that putting back the read and blue pad stripes!!! Hope some of the engineers in Yamato would read us!!! Thanks again.

[snife]

I think that models with LED displays will start to appear on ThinkPads around Q1 2008, personally I dont think that is something to hold out for. The only thing I think they should do is offer the Tablet AFFS panels on the normal X series.

[rleo25]

So you would go for the Dell Snife?

[tomh009]

I think that models with LED displays will start to appear on ThinkPads around Q1 2008, personally I dont think that is something to hold out for.

LED backlights in the current *61 models? New models won't appear in Q1 yet.

The only thing I think they should do is offer the Tablet AFFS panels on the normal X series.

Boe Hydis doesn't make a non-tablet AFFS 12.1" LCD panel. And Boe Hydis is the only manufacturer making AFFS panes as they own the patents on the technology.