T61 VS Dell XPS m1330

[egnatius]

I'm considering upgrading from a T43 to a T61, but I just learned that Dell released an all-new laptop, the m1330.

Here are some specs:
13.3-inch screen, configurable with LED backlight (300cd/m2, or 220 with CCFL backlight)
Core 2 Duo processor (up to 2.4GHz), Santa Rosa chipset (965PM/GM)
Up to 4GB DDR2 SDRAM
32GB SSD drive or spinning-platter drive options up to 250GB
Slot-loading dual-layer DVD±RW drive
Optional NVIDIA GeForce Go 8400M GS / 128MB
WWAN option for Verizon, Sprint, or AT&T
Ethernet, 802.11a, a/g, or n options, Bluetooth option
Integrated 2 megapixel webcam (VGA only on LED-backlit display)
HDMI, VGA, 1394, (2) USB 2.0, integrated media reader (MS, SD, xD), dual mini-PCI slots, fingerprint reader
Dimensions with LED 12.5 x 9.4 x 0.87 - 1.33-inches (318 x 238 x 22.1 - 33.8mm) / with CCFL 12.5 x 9.4 x 0.97 - 1.43-inches (318 x 238 x 24.6 - 36.3mm)
Weight starts at 4 pounds

CNet and PC Magazine have given it some pretty good reviews so far. Check out the pictures!

It looks like a very sleek and powerful machine with some innovative options like the LED screen and SSD hard drive, but my main worries are the keyboard and the build quality. Oh and last but not least, no Trackpoint! Thinkpad keyboards have definitely spoiled me

On the other hand, I have a feeling the T61 will be too bulky and heavy to carry around on a daily basis (I'll be walking to campus just about every day) and from what I've read so far, battery life has become an issue for models with discrete graphics.

What do you guys think?

[ryengineer]

This is Thinkpad forum and most people including me are going to advise against Dell.

Secondly, you're doing a wrong comparison. The dell you quoted is an ultraportable and you should be considering your choices between it and X61/s and not T61, unless you see something better in the latter.

IMHO, X61/s is for you, since you need an ultraportable mobile notebook with good battery life with the feel of thinkpad keyboard and trackpoint.

XPS M1330 could be good, perhaps, honestly I don't know but Cnet and PC magazine reviews are mostly biased.

Also, I am not aware of your budget but currently 32GB SSD costs $550 from dell and I am sure you are aware of this fact and also another truth about getting low on space pretty soon with Vista on it, unless you go for alternatives and buy another HDD...

Last but not the least we are here just to suggest, you're real person, the decision maker in choosing what you are going to buy.

Good Luck!

[ZaZ]

It starts at four pounds, but by the time you add the larger battery which you'll need if you are using it while mobile it's going to start pushing mainstream laptops weight. If always got a plug, it may work. The reason to get the Dell is the GPU if you want to game a bit. You won't get that one on the X61(s), but integrated cards have better battery life.

[syhead]

I just got a Vaio SZ series because:

1) I wanted something in between the T and X series
2) I couldn't find a T61 in Brazil with the high resolution screen

[pianowizard]

Secondly, you're doing a wrong comparison. The dell you quoted is an ultraportable and you should be considering your choices between it and X61/s and not T61

I think it's more appropriate to compare this Dell with the Lenovo V series, which is also around 4 pounds and has an optical drive.

The biggest weakness of this Dell is it has only 1280x800 res on a 13.3" screen, same as the MacBook

[pesce]

If you're carrying it around everyday, I'd definitely go with the x61. They're incredibly small and light, but yet have a full keyboard, the trackpoint, long battery life, and a matte screen (which will be easier on your eyes than a glossy screen).

I have a T42, which is a little lighter than the T61. The T42 is about the heaviest laptop I would want to carry around everyday.

The 1330m is definitely intriguing, but it is an entirely new platform (I think), so it may have more reliability issues than normal. Also, I personally find glossy screens hard to look at for long periods.

[Kenn]

Actually, I'm considering the same thing, and I think there's a valid comparison between the two machines.

Prices are fairly similar for comparable builds.

13" v. 14" - comparable class. Dell's got the LED brightness + thinness advantage, T61's got screen size, more real estate with WXGA+ option, and sturdiness.

Comparable graphics performance according to PC Mag (same core: 8400GS v. Quadro NVS 140M)

Size v. weight is highly personal, but I find it ironic that the "ultralight" Dell has an 80+WH 8-cell battery, while the T61 only has a 7-cell (and from reports could really use a 9-cell).

What kills the Dell for me is the fact that the M1330 has no dock available. It's got HDMI while the T61 has VGA, but I really don't want to come home every day and plug in: digital monitor, USB hub, ethernet, stereo, microphone, and power. I'm on the verge of ruling out the M1330 and various Mac options solely on this.

I haven't seen the Dell in person yet, but I imagine it will be small, light, and ahem, built like a Dell. I know a lot of people who are fine with this, but I imagine most of us are here now because we do care about build quality.

Finally, I'm looking at the various X options as well, in particular the SXGA+ tablet, but given the integrated graphics and lack of optical, I'd go as far to say they're less comparable to the M1330 than the T-series is.

[gunston]

XPS m1330 looks nice.
The good: Thin, sexy design; strong performance; backlit-LED display; included media remote control

Using Backlit-LED, longer battery life idealy

[egnatius]

Finally, I'm looking at the various X options as well, in particular the SXGA+ tablet, but given the integrated graphics and lack of optical, I'd go as far to say they're less comparable to the M1330 than the T-series is.

This is precisely why I suggested comparing the two.

I honestly can't figure out why Lenovo hasn't phased out the R series (which seems like a less-expensive T-series clone) in favor of a 13-inch model WITH an optical drive and optional discrete graphics for those who want a unit that is really both powerful and portable. My current Thinkpad, a T43, is really pushing the weight limit for a laptop I can carry around every day.

With the release of the T61, it seems like the T series is becoming more like the late G series (larger and more powerful, but heavier and with less battery life).

[Kenn]

I honestly can't figure out why Lenovo hasn't phased out the R series (which seems like a less-expensive T-series clone) in favor of a 13-inch model WITH an optical drive and optional discrete graphics for those who want a unit that is really both powerful and portable.

That would be sweetastic. But it would be more of an "enthusiast" rather than a business market, which is why I assume something like that hasn't happened. Gonna have to "settle" for a 14" t61p w/ 8600GT-level gfx I imagine (unless Lenovo releases an X60 with SXGA + discrete graphics).

My current Thinkpad, a T43, is really pushing the weight limit for a laptop I can carry around every day.

With the release of the T61, it seems like the T series is becoming more like the late G series (larger and more powerful, but heavier and with less battery life).

I feel the same way. 15" + 9-cell + AC is pushing 7lb I think. But I totally agree about the T-series getting a bit bigger and heavier with every generation. WS is of course partially to blame, but I really wish it was the other way around.

[Davemci]

After ordering my T61 on 5/24, I was lied to 3 times about the delivery date. Many that ordered after me were enjoying their T61. I finally canceled my order when I was told the 3rd week in July. I decided I was through buying from Lenovo and I've bought new Thinkpads ever since the 701c. After looking at all the possibilities, including the Dell XPS, I bought a Sager. Here are the specs:

1 NP2090V - 15.4" WSXGA+ ACTIVE MATRIX LCD DISPLAY WITH MATTE FINISH SURFACE NOTEBOOK COMPUTER $1,469.00
2 Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T7500 / 4MB L2 Cache, 2.20 GHz, 800MHz FSB $95.00
3 Nvidia GeForce 8600M GT PCI-Express 16X Graphics with 512MB DDR3 Video Memory
4 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 2 X 1024MB
5 100.0GB (SATA 7200rpm) SATA 150 Hard Drive
6 8X DVD ± R/RW/ 4X +DL Super-Multi Drive & Softwares
7 9 Cell Smart Li-ION Battery
8 Integrated 56K V.90 Internal Fax/Modem
9 Integrated 1000Mbps Ethernet LAN & Intel PRO/Wireless 4965AGN LAN 802.11n Module & Bluetooth Module $45.00 1
10 Genuine Windows VISTA Home Premium 32/64-Bit Edition
11 Sager 1 Year Standard Warranty
12 ROB-1G, NP2090 Intel TurboMemory 1024MB Module (Robson Technology) $35.00

It comes standard with a fingerprint reader and 2.0MP camera. It has 64bit Vista installed and 32bit on the included recovery CD.

I'm not sure if I made a mistake or not, but Sager has been around since 1985 and I haven't found too many negative reviews. It's a little heavy at 7 pounds, but seems to have better features.

[Kenn]

After ordering my T61 on 5/24, I was lied to 3 times about the delivery date. Many that ordered after me were enjoying their T61. I finally canceled my order when I was told the 3rd week in July. I decided I was through buying from Lenovo and I've bought new Thinkpads ever since the 701c. After looking at all the possibilities, including the Dell XPS, I bought a Sager. Here are the specs:

I'm not sure if I made a mistake or not, but Sager has been around since 1985 and I haven't found too many negative reviews. It's a little heavy at 7 pounds, but seems to have better features.

Did you customize your machine? I know that those who buy Express or Edu models get theirs pretty quicky, and specifying some parts (like webcam) can delay shipment.

But I've heard good things about Sager. The chassis and parts are generic, which makes them cheaper, but they don't have close to the integration and fit/finish of a Thinkpad. But you can definitely outfit them with great specs. If I was still big into gaming, I'd probably go that route myself.

[tomh009]

I honestly can't figure out why Lenovo hasn't phased out the R series (which seems like a less-expensive T-series clone) in favor of a 13-inch model WITH an optical drive and optional discrete graphics for those who want a unit that is really both powerful and portable.

That would be sweetastic. But it would be more of an "enthusiast" rather than a business market, which is why I assume something like that hasn't happened.

Exactly. Even on the Dell site, the M1330 is only listed under home laptops, not even small/medium business, let alone large business. It is clearly not targeted at business users.

[pianowizard]

That would be sweetastic. But it would be more of an "enthusiast" rather than a business market

Exactly. Even on the Dell site, the M1330 is only listed under home laptops, not even small/medium business, let alone large business. It is clearly not targeted at business users.

Are you guys saying that business people don't like 4-lb 13.3" laptops with internal optical drive, and would rather lug around something 1 to 2 pounds heavier?

[egnatius]

Exactly. Even on the Dell site, the M1330 is only listed under home laptops, not even small/medium business, let alone large business. It is clearly not targeted at business users.

It actually is listed under Small Business.
And I agree with pianowizard. I can't imagine why business users would pass on a machine with this form factor.

[sokos]

offcourse a thinkpad if you want a serious machine!

Those keys look so much like the Vaio cheap plastic keys.
Those were fashion in 80's where as a kid i had a Spectrum ZX..

[tomh009]

Are you guys saying that business people don't like 4-lb 13.3" laptops with internal optical drive, and would rather lug around something 1 to 2 pounds heavier?

I didn't say anything about that (though the idea of a 4 lb laptop with only an 1280x800 display and no trackpoint for $2K+ does not exactly get me excited, optical drive or not). I merely said that it's not targeted (by Dell) at business users -- else why would they not list it for their business customers?

[Davemci]

Did you customize your machine? I know that those who buy Express or Edu models get theirs pretty quicky, and specifying some parts (like webcam) can delay shipment.

Don't get me started...

Yes I customized, but have read that the problem wasn't in manufacturing. Basically Lenovo screwed up the orders to the manufacture and they were all kicked out of the system. They split my order and sent the laptop bag which caused further delay. They had to resubmit my order and couldn't figure out how to honor the sale price after the sale was over. However, I didn't get any of this from anyone at lenovo since they don't know how to use e-mail or update their shipping status or answer their phones in a timely manner.

But I've heard good things about Sager. The chassis and parts are generic, which makes them cheaper, but they don't have close to the integration and fit/finish of a Thinkpad. But you can definitely outfit them with great specs. If I was still big into gaming, I'd probably go that route myself.

I still have a half dozen or so IBM Thinkpads if I really miss the trackpoint which is about the only non-generic thing on the T61 as far as I can tell. What I've seen reviewed here about the T61 has been as much negative as positive. Still Sager isn't Thinkpad and doesn't have that mystique and gravitas.

[Kenn]

I still have a half dozen or so IBM Thinkpads if I really miss the trackpoint which is about the only non-generic thing on the T61 as far as I can tell. What I've seen reviewed here about the T61 has been as much negative as positive. Still Sager isn't Thinkpad and doesn't have that mystique and gravitas.

Hi Dave,

When I say generic, I mean only that the chassis design is OEM and used by a number of other system integrators as well in their own brands. It wasn't a comment about quality. While the thinkpad of course uses "generic" parts (chipsets, optical drive, LG screen, etc.,) it's got a ton of custom parts unique to IBM, some great (finely crafted chassis and roll-cage support, IBM keyboard, etc.), some kinda meh (thinklight, battery design ultrabay LED); but definitely designed specifically for the thinkpad.

[RaferX]

XPS M1330 could be good, perhaps, honestly I don't know but Cnet and PC magazine reviews are mostly biased.

Excuse me? I work at CNET. In fact, I used to run laptop reviews.

CNET Labs scored the X61 an 8.0. The X60s got an 8.4. T60 and T61's range fro 7.1 to 7.8 (depending on model and date of review; standards change).

The Dell 1330 got a 7.9.

Personally, Thinkpads are my favorite laptops. But they are not perfect. That's why I read this forum. I run a T60 right now and have had several X's before it.

Where's the bias?

-Rafe

[ryengineer]

Excuse me? I work at CNET. In fact, I used to run laptop reviews.........

Let me rephrase myself, that's my sole opinion.

[pianowizard]

CNET Labs scored the X61 an 8.0. The X60s got an 8.4.....Where's the bias?

These are extremely high scores compared to most other laptops reviewed on CNET. If CNET were biased, they would be biased for Thinkpads, not against.

However, while I don't think CNET are biased, sometimes I feel that their criteria are questionable.

[wallybear]

My 2-cent's worth:

I've supported scores of computers over the past 20 years in my consulting business. I used to recommend Dell computers but I don't any more. Their support policies are miserable now. And, their hardware is more prone to failures both in and out of warranty than it used to be. I know that some people reading this may balk at my suggestions and say that they are "generalizations".

But, I can assure you that my recommendations are based on much real-world experience. Dell's in trouble financially for a reason. Poor support and shoddy workmanship takes its toll eventually. If you follow the industry as I do (for example, read the long series of stories on Dell in the e-Week magazine), you'll know that Michael Dell is hard-pressed right now to slow, let alone stop, the company's plummenting sales. Support and reliability are the two reasons quoted by industry experts on why Dell's in trouble.

HP's hardware (or Lenovo's for that matter) is superior to Dell's. Sony's hardware is nice, too, but for the price why aren't you buying a ThinkPad? <grin>

In short, I don't see any reason to buy a Dell product, even with the extreme discounting that they are forced to do to move hardware. There's a reason their discounts are offered....

I hope this helps. Questions? Write to me....

[WPWoodJr]

The CNET review says:

The LED-backlit display, also seen in the new 15-inch MacBook Pro, helps to make the system's lid thinner (less than a quarter-inch thick) while also extending battery life, although users should not expect the display to look any different than a traditional LCD laptop screen.

I thought LED displays were supposed to have better color rendition than fluorescent displays?

[wearetheborg]

My 2-cent's worth:

I've supported scores of computers over the past 20 years in my consulting business. I used to recommend Dell computers but I don't any more. Their support policies are miserable now. And, their hardware is more prone to failures both in and out of warranty than it used to be. I know that some people reading this may balk at my suggestions and say that they are "generalizations".

But, I can assure you that my recommendations are based on much real-world experience. Dell's in trouble financially for a reason. Poor support and shoddy workmanship takes its toll eventually. If you follow the industry as I do (for example, read the long series of stories on Dell in the e-Week magazine), you'll know that Michael Dell is hard-pressed right now to slow, let alone stop, the company's plummenting sales. Support and reliability are the two reasons quoted by industry experts on why Dell's in trouble.

HP's hardware (or Lenovo's for that matter) is superior to Dell's. Sony's hardware is nice, too, but for the price why aren't you buying a ThinkPad? <grin>

In short, I don't see any reason to buy a Dell product, even with the extreme discounting that they are forced to do to move hardware. There's a reason their discounts are offered....

I hope this helps. Questions? Write to me....

1. Workmanship & reliability
Depends on what you mean by that. Dell most certainly have a weight problem. But other than that, me and my colleagues have only had good experiences with Dells (inspirons at that).
They make killer 17" laptops. Gorgeous WUXGA screens. Built like TANKS.

Sony vaios - our university got around 100 of them. The worst built machines we have ever encountered. Though that may just be specific to the laptop model we received. But they were universally hated by everyone.

Thinkpads are light, very businesslike, best keyboards, unfortunately, we've not had good experiences with respect to reliability (the T series, T30s, T40s). They've had almost a 100% failure rate, not just the HDD dying, but motherboard failures & fan errors. Even on machines that have been used gently.

2.Customer Service
Dell is certainly lacking in this regard, but I would certainly not rank HP higher.
Lenovo customer service also seems to have taken a hit recently. Lots of horror stories on the lenovo forum at notebookreview forums.
One can upgrade Dell warranties if one wants to, to at home service.


For 17" ers I fully recommend Dell
For 15" ers if laptop is not going to be moved around much (weight issue), Dell, otherwise thinkpads.

[XIII]

XPS M1330 could be good, perhaps, honestly I don't know but Cnet and PC magazine reviews are mostly biased.

Excuse me? I work at CNET. In fact, I used to run laptop reviews.

CNET Labs scored the X61 an 8.0. The X60s got an 8.4. T60 and T61's range fro 7.1 to 7.8 (depending on model and date of review; standards change).

The Dell 1330 got a 7.9.

Personally, Thinkpads are my favorite laptops. But they are not perfect. That's why I read this forum. I run a T60 right now and have had several X's before it.

Where's the bias?

-Rafe

Don't even get me started. The Ipod is pathetically crap: Poor battery life, cheap components, poor sound quality from generic DSP, poor Equalizer customization and non-replaceable components yet CNET gives it 8.3, similar to Clix2. It is not even worth the CNET editor's choice that you gave. Or possibly, you gave it Editor's Choice because Apple pays you. You mislead a lots of sincere customers to pay their hard-working money for piece of crap.
The Cowon D2 should have scores higher because of it superior battery life 52 hour, touch screen, superb DSP which is capable of oversampling MP3 at 320Kbps with various add-on like Mach3Bass, 3D effect, BBE which is currently the best option on the Market right now. Heck, it far more worth the Editor's Choice than any other MP3 Player right now on the market.
Here is just two examples about how bad CNET is.
I wouldn't call CNET biased. It seems to me that you are just a bunch of computer and electronic illiterates that pretend to be professionals.

[Kenn]

I thought LED displays were supposed to have better color rendition than fluorescent displays?

In an attempt to move the conversation back to laptops, generally I heard the same thing - white LEDs will typically provide more consistent color and a wider gamut. But I imagine a lot of this has to do with the specific LED implementation used (so there are still a lot of variables, even if you eliminate the color temperature shifting of CCFLs).

The M1330 also has something like 330 nits of brightness. I don't know what the contrast ratio is, but that's more than twice the brightness rating of some t61 displays, which is something I'd really like to see...

[pipspeak]

Don't even get me started. The Ipod is pathetically crap: Poor battery life, cheap components, poor sound quality from generic DSP, poor Equalizer customization and non-replaceable components yet CNET gives it 8.3, similar to Clix2. It is not even worth the CNET editor's choice that you gave. Or possibly, you gave it Editor's Choice because Apple pays you. You mislead a lots of sincere customers to pay their hard-working money for piece of crap.
The Cowon D2 should have scores higher because of it superior battery life 52 hour, touch screen, superb DSP which is capable of oversampling MP3 at 320Kbps with various add-on like Mach3Bass, 3D effect, BBE which is currently the best option on the Market right now. Heck, it far more worth the Editor's Choice than any other MP3 Player right now on the market.
Here is just two examples about how bad CNET is.
I wouldn't call CNET biased. It seems to me that you are just a bunch of computer and electronic illiterates that pretend to be professionals.

Ouch. And herein lies the problem of any reviews... they're all utterly subjective except when ranking hardware based on specifications.

I agree that many of Cnet's reviews are baffling (including the apparently blind adoration of the ipod) but I just put that down to that fact that people put different emphases on different features. In that respect I rate Cnet reviews as no more useful than user reviews on Amazon -- just another set of opinions to take into account before tracking down more specialist reviews.

[skitty4gzus]

There is an Off-topic area on this forum for off topic threads, this has to do with upgrading from a T43 to a T61 or a Dell m1330. folks get better help by keeping things on topic.

[oldRammy]

Check out the fujitsu s7110 or panasonic y7
I would have got the fujitsu if they had a current model out with the santa rosa platform.