X200 vs X220

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mikemex · #1 Post by **mikemex** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:22 am

Do you think it's a good idea to upgrade from X200 to X220 at this point?

I'm currently getting about 4 hours of battery life from the X200 but increasing that to 6-7 sounds too tempting. Also, Sandy Bridge performs way better than Core 2 Duo, specially when it comes to graphics. Not that I want to game that much on a 12 inch laptop but it would be nice to have a "complete machine". I consider the X200 as an "office only machine".

In general, what do I gain/lose?

EDIT:

Here are a few pictures comparing them both:

http://s7.postimage.org/ju96vjx3f/Image_00110b.jpg
http://s8.postimage.org/poachr3n9/Image_00111b.jpg

As you can see, the X220 is considerably thinner. Subjectively, it's also better built, see the hinges for example, much beefier. My X200 is a few years old already though so it could be just use...

The brightness is still higher on the X200 at level 10 than the X220 at the same level.

#2 Post by **ZaZ** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:13 am

If you really want good graphics you should go for the X230, which offers about twice the GPU performance over Sandy Bridge. Plus you'll get USB 3.0 standard. For day to day there's little performance between the two, but obviously if you're pushing them, the newer CPUs will do better. For me the biggest pluses for the X220/X230 are the IPS with warranty and the dual drives. When I had my X200 I disliked having everything on the external when I had a SSD in there. Keep in mind the 6-7 hours is only when the battery is relatively new. it will degrade over time.

pianowizard · #3 Post by **pianowizard** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:36 am

From your other thread, I see that you just sold your T61 and X300, leaving you with this X200. I think it's worth upgrading to the X230, but let me suggest another possibility: upgrade to an X1 Carbon. In the other thread, you said you liked the T61's big screen and high resolution, but you wanted something much lighter. The 2.998-pound X1 Carbon with 14" 1600x900 would be the perfect solution, because it gives you both. Think of it as a much improved version of the X300.

mikemex · #4 Post by **mikemex** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:09 am

ZaZ wrote:If you really want good graphics you should go for the X230, which offers about twice the GPU performance over Sandy Bridge. Plus you'll get USB 3.0 standard. For day to day there's little performance between the two, but obviously if you're pushing them, the newer CPUs will do better. For me the biggest pluses for the X220/X230 are the IPS with warranty and the dual drives. When I had my X200 I disliked having everything on the external when I had a SSD in there. Keep in mind the 6-7 hours is only when the battery is relatively new. it will degrade over time.

If I upgrade it would be to the X220. First, because of the keyboard. Second, because I can get a second hand X220 for much cheaper.

Storage is not a problem with the X200. Like I said in another thread, it's one of the few models with three MiniPCI-E slots. You can take away the turbo memory card and replace it with a SD card reader. I've spotted some that can hold two SDXC micro SD cards, so you can add up to 128GB AND keep your WWAN.

pianowizard wrote:From your other thread, I see that you just sold your T61 and X300, leaving you with this X200. I think it's worth upgrading to the X230, but let me suggest another possibility: upgrade to an X1 Carbon. In the other thread, you said you liked the T61's big screen and high resolution, but you wanted something much lighter. The 2.998-pound X1 Carbon with 14" 1600x900 would be the perfect solution, because it gives you both. Think of it as a much improved version of the X300.

Yes, you're spot on: I'd like to get a machine with a generous screen but light and at first glance, the X1 Carbon seems to fit the bill. However, I see several issues with it:

1) It has the new style keyboard and for me, this is a deal breaker.
2) It doesn't have an optical drive so it's really not a replacement for the X300.
3) It's way too thin. This shouldn't be something bad but from my experience with the X300, it's going to be fragile.

But the most important reason in my case is money. I don't really see myself spending a grand on such machine when I can get both a T420 and X220 second hand for the same money. I'm even thinking at this point skipping the X series entirely and just keep the T420. I get the same battery life from the 6 cell with the T420 as I used to get from the 9 cell with the T61, so it's about two pounds lighter already.

And if you want to know, I loved the X300 format but there are two features that made me choose the X200 instead: full size battery and full power processor. With the X300 I was getting 2.5 hours of battery life maximum and it was with a battery in good condition; under the same conditions the X200 gives me between 4 and 5, and that's with a P8600 on board, which is more than twice as fast as the SL7100.

pianowizard · #5 Post by **pianowizard** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:28 am

mikemex wrote:I'm even thinking at this point skipping the X series entirely and just keep the T420. I get the same battery life from the 6 cell with the T420 as I used to get from the 9 cell with the T61, so it's about two pounds lighter already.

Sounds like a good plan. The T420s would be lighter than the T420, although it costs more and its battery life isn't as good.

#6 Post by **ZaZ** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:10 pm

mikemex wrote:1) It has the new style keyboard and for me, this is a deal breaker.

Have you tried the new keyboard? It's quite good from a typing perspective. It's firm and has excellent feel. Now if you've got the old layout grooved into your brain, the new layout will be frustrating.

The T420 is an excellent notebook, but the screens are average. It's a shame. If you took the screen from the X1C and put it into the T420/T430 you'd have one fine notebook.

ThinkRob · #7 Post by **ThinkRob** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:37 pm

ZaZ wrote: Have you tried the new keyboard? It's quite good from a typing perspective. It's firm and has excellent feel. Now if you've got the old layout grooved into your brain, the new layout will be frustrating.

I'll second this by saying:

1) I was absolutely floored by how good the typing feel of the new design was (as compared to other island designs.)

2) The layout maddened me to no end since I actually use many of the top-row keys. This may not be an issue if you don't need thing like SysRq.

mikemex · #8 Post by **mikemex** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:57 pm

It's the layout what bothers me, not the island redesign. That and the fact that by removing a row from the keyboard you might expect them to make the entire notebook shorter but no, they kept it hugely tall. The new layout occupies exactly the same area as the old one, so they made the switch simply to make Thinkpads more consumer like (they think reversed: it's not us who have to adapt to the new, consumer-like layout; it's the average consumer joe who has to adapt to a Thinkpad style keyboard).

This isn't going to end well, I forecast.

ThinkRob · #9 Post by **ThinkRob** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:55 pm

mikemex wrote:The new layout occupies exactly the same area as the old one, so they made the switch simply to make Thinkpads more consumer like (they think reversed: it's not us who have to adapt to the new, consumer-like layout; it's the average consumer joe who has to adapt to a Thinkpad style keyboard)..

I suspect it's probably to allow them to re-use some of the tooling used for the keyboards for other lines, but I have no confirmation of this.

I could probably get used to the layout if I owned one of the machines that had it. So far I've just used it on demo or office machines, so I haven't really been forced to adapt yet.

mikemex · #10 Post by **mikemex** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:50 pm

IBM never sold consumer grade products. In the other hand, Lenovo never sold professional grade products before purchasing the Think brand. Engineers at IBM and Lenovo are different minded and so are the directives. It's obvious to me that they don't understand nor care about the small details that made Thinkpads so great. Like, for example, seemingly insignificant details such as putting a sticker detailing the kind of screws were used in the bottom of the T4x models (because IBM was a logistics company). Or the "ugly" design that happened to make sense, like the clamshell lid that made the design stronger without making it thicker.

Old design is gone to please regular customers who buy with the eye and not the mind. There is a noticeable effort to make Thinkpads look cleaner. Make no mistake, most notebooks have the "del" key in the corner and Lenovo will put it there to please the vast majority of customers who expect it to be there. It's a volume company, they aim for the large audiences.

ThinkRob · #11 Post by **ThinkRob** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:22 am

mikemex wrote:IBM never sold consumer grade products.

Apart from the ThinkPad i series (built under license by Acer). And aside from the Aptiva line. And a whole slew of consumer accessories...

Engineers at IBM and Lenovo are different minded and so are the directives.

Engineers at Lenovo (or at least in the Think division) *were* engineers at IBM. You're right about their directions probably being different, but it's not like they started with totally different teams.

It's also worth noting that IBM managed to lose money with their PSG for pretty much every year of its existence. Yes, Lenovo has clearly made a number of changes designed to increase volume, both in terms of component orders and in terms of sales. They're also turning a profit because of it -- which is something that IBM never managed to do.

So yeah, I bet the directives are different. I suspect that's because Lenovo isn't interested in continuing the same pattern of management that caused IBM to lose nearly a billion dollars in couple years leading up to the sale of the group. Then again, IBM's cost-cutting plans managed to reduce that from the "glory" days -- like 1998 where they lost over a billion dollars.

It's obvious to me that they don't understand nor care about the small details that made Thinkpads so great. Like, for example, seemingly insignificant details such as putting a sticker detailing the kind of screws were used in the bottom of the T4x models (because IBM was a logistics company).

As somebody who's disassembled and worked on what must be hundreds of ThinkPads at this point I heartily disagree. Yeah, the T4x had a sticker with screw outlines on it. And? Can we therefore extrapolate that for the first 12 years of the brand's existence that IBM was *not* a logistics company? Many of IBM's ThinkPads were *very* complex internally, and rather unpleasant to work on (with some notable exceptions like the 750C and its wonderful, modular design). I've worked on every T series and almost every X series ever produced, and Lenovo's designs have improved things tremendously. Ever disassemble a 600X? You might want to do so, and to try comparing it to a T420; the difference is night and day.

That's probably due to cost reduction. Simpler internal designs are cheaper to assemble, cheaper to repair, and cheaper to design. And you know what? I'm OK with that, because it's a net win for everybody. It might not be as impressive, engineering-wise, but if it makes for a laptop that costs less, is easier to build, performs as well, and is cheaper to fix then I'm afraid I don't really see the downside.

mikemex · #12 Post by **mikemex** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:20 pm

Well, returning to the original topic, I can't see that many reasons to upgrade my trusty X200. There is still ample room for improvement, say, upgrading RAM to 8GB, adding more internal storage (via express card slot, SD slot and internal MiniPCI-E slot), WWAN. Heck, I can even add an AFFS screen...

Graphics performance isn't really that important with such small machine. The only thing that really concerns me is battery life; Sandy Bridge is really much more efficient. On the X200 power consumption never goes below 11-12W. On my T420 I can often see 6-7W. The improvement seems dramatic.

ThinkRob · #13 Post by **ThinkRob** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:51 pm

Right. Back on topic I'd agree: while I'd recommend the X220 or X230 to new buyers, the X200 is still a very capable machine, and the ability to upgrade to AFFS means that even the screen isn't a "killer" feature of the newer models. Battery life and raw power are about the only two reasons I could see to switch.

So really, if you're happy with your X200's performance in both of those areas then I'd keep it.

LegendaryKA8 · #14 Post by **LegendaryKA8** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:30 pm

mikemex wrote:Well, returning to the original topic, I can't see that many reasons to upgrade my trusty X200. There is still ample room for improvement, say, upgrading RAM to 8GB, adding more internal storage (via express card slot, SD slot and internal MiniPCI-E slot), WWAN. Heck, I can even add an AFFS screen...

Do you have any more information about using the mini-PCIe slots as additional storage? I saw the adapters for sale, but would they work in the X200, given the whole BIOS whitelist hurdles to go through?

bretahrnek · #15 Post by **bretahrnek** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:49 pm

LegendaryKA8 wrote: Do you have any more information about using the mini-PCIe slots as additional storage? I saw the adapters for sale, but would they work in the X200, given the whole BIOS whitelist hurdles to go through?

This is somethink I would really like to try as well.

Have three mini pcie slots on mine, it has been de-whitelisted, however I can not run any different setup then:
First slot - WLAN 6300 N
Second slot - WWAN erricsson
Third slot - empty for now - wish to put some storage in there, and yes i know it can not boot from it, but at least to be in use for storage , any chance ?

mikemex wrote: If I upgrade it would be to the X220. First, because of the keyboard. Second, because I can get a second hand X220 for much cheaper.

Storage is not a problem with the X200. Like I said in another thread, it's one of the few models with three MiniPCI-E slots. You can take away the turbo memory card and replace it with a SD card reader. I've spotted some that can hold two SDXC micro SD cards, so you can add up to 128GB AND keep your WWAN.

Do You have any storage working on any mini PCIe slot ?

mikemex · #16 Post by **mikemex** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:50 am

They are USB devices if I remember correctly. You can probably boot from it and shouldn't be affected by the 1802 error either.

NikoJR · #17 Post by **NikoJR** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:55 am

Good insight here guys, I feel better about my decision to go with a bargain x220 deal.

mikemex · #18 Post by **mikemex** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:04 am

What bothers me is battery life. I'm getting about 5-6 hours from the T420, already more than an hour above the X200. With the X220 I should be expecting 6-7 hours and with the 9 cell, at least 10. So it's really in an entirely different category.

Sigh, I give up, I think it's time to upgrade my trusty X200. 4 hours should be more than enough for a friend or relative but I'm too geeky to ignore the 10 hour offer.

I'll be getting one for about $500 soon. I'll get back to you when I get it.

emeraldgirl08 · #19 Post by **emeraldgirl08** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:16 pm

Hmmm... the battery life seems as if it might be exceptionally good with the X220 series! Only thing that would stink is the 16:9 screen ratio. On the other hand faster CPU and more efficient power management. The IPS LED doesn't hurt either! I may be heading in the same direction soon as well.

mikemex · #20 Post by **mikemex** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:13 pm

I almost feel bad for betraying my little X200...

Atreides · #21 Post by **Atreides** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:15 pm

mikemex wrote:I almost feel bad for betraying my little X200...

I'm in a similar "predicament", starting to feel out what it would cost to upgrade.

I love my X200 and with the docking station its my sole computer, but the C2D is definitely starting to show its age in a lot of tasks...

yuji · #22 Post by **yuji** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:38 am

mikemex wrote:I almost feel bad for betraying my little X200...

Just out of curiosity, why do you say so?
I'm yet another one thinking about upgrading my trusty X200 to X220
(or if anyone does manage to come up with a bios mod for the X230 that would do also).

mikemex · #23 Post by **mikemex** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:07 pm

I just got the X220 today. I'll take pictures and do a longer post but for now I can say:

1) Yes, battery life is much greater. I'm expecting above 6 hours minimum but I wouldnn't be surprised if I get 7 or more. Right when I turned it on it said 3:44 hours remaining with 46%...
2) The X220 is thinner than the X200. Sightly wider and shorter.
3) It doesn't have latches. This is something I don't like.
4) I love LED screens.

yuji wrote:Just out of curiosity, why do you say so?

Because there is really nothing wrong about the X200. I'm just being capricious here because the X200 could easily last me quite a few years.

mikemex · #24 Post by **mikemex** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:08 pm

I can confirm that the X220 takes 9.5mm drives, there is enough space in the bay. It's just that it won't fit easily as the window where the drive slides in is for 7mm drives. I took off the palmrest, the keyboard and with a bit of effort I managed to fit the drive. It's working fine, currently installing Windows 7.

For the record, it is a first generation Samsung 64 GB SLC drive (1.8") in a 42W7888 adapter. Sorry, out of the excitement I fortgot to take pictures...

emeraldgirl08 · #25 Post by **emeraldgirl08** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:34 pm

mikemex wrote: 4) I love [IPS] LED screens.

There fixed it for you

Congratulations on your new machine! I'll be saving up for one also!

mikemex · #26 Post by **mikemex** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:39 am

This is gorgeous... I recalibrated the battery yesterday and total capacity is stated at 66 Wh (!). This might be an error since official battery capacity is stated at 63 Wh...

When I just unplugged the machine it said 10.5 hours of battery left, this quickly stabilized to 8.5 hours and it remained there doing light web browsing. I decided to try something "heavy", not a bechmark because that kind of usage is unrealistic, so I decided to fire up security essentials and do a full drive search. This stressess both the CPU and the hard drive so is representative of heavy usage in the real world. Minimum battery life is reported at 5 hours under such conditions.

I couldn't be happier with the X220. The best $500 spent in a long time.

mikemex · #27 Post by **mikemex** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:48 pm

New pictures... sorry for the quality, my cell phone is the only camera I have.

Atreides · #28 Post by **Atreides** » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:50 pm

mikemex wrote:New pictures... sorry for the quality, my cell phone is the only camera I have.

Is there something that keeps the lid down that they did away with the latch, do they use magnets like Apple? It's the only thing I can't seem to find information on.

mikemex · #29 Post by **mikemex** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:20 am

Atreides wrote:Is there something that keeps the lid down that they did away with the latch, do they use magnets like Apple? It's the only thing I can't seem to find information on.

Yes. Not a good idea in my opinion since credit cards still have a magnetic band and you use the laptop on your lap...

Atreides · #30 Post by **Atreides** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:39 pm

mikemex wrote:
Yes. Not a good idea in my opinion since credit cards still have a magnetic band and you use the laptop on your lap...

True enough, though its becoming the norm for laptops now. They hold the lid down firmly enough?

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