W540 video review

[Adda]

Here you go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkGa7wa0sNk

[wolfman]

Brutal. Just Brutal.

I will keep my T420 till it dies or is unusable. For heavy lifting, I just built a new workstation. So sad to see the Thinkpad become just another machine...

[Saucey]

Wow. Not good to hear at all.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Medessec]

Really doesn't surprise me at all.

I really hate how they thought... "hey, even though our return customers are clever, professional, do-it-yourself power users who appreciate the supremity of the UltraNav, let's attempt to cater said laptop made for said people to the masses", and made the stupid all-click touchpad. I like how he mentioned "So... this is left click, this is left click, THIS is left click, this is... left click. Maybe... this is right click..."

[Ibthink]

A bit dumb reviewer: Calls himself a "IT professional", but doesn´t know how to enter BIOS / UEFI and to turn off the TouchPad like with any other ThinkPad... Also, he could just go into the driver and turn it off there - seems he never even tried to adjust the settings for the TouchPad...

[Medessec]

But... the UltraNav is one of the coolest things about the T-series... and Lenovo just took a huge dump on it.

And perhaps that's why he's complaining quite a bit about it. He actually uses it, instead of deactivating it and just using a mouse. Which I understand a lot of people do... but I really like the Touchpad, and I'd probably end up punching someone if I had to use those crapshoots of a touchpad that these new laptops have. The UltraNav is one of the best Touchpads I've ever used, behind Toshiba's dotted-texture Synaptics touchpads, and Clevo's enormous touchpads on their Porta-Notes.

[Brad]

I was hoping for the better LCD. Now there is one. Unfortunately though they removed much of everything else that made ThinkPad, ThinkPads. Don't even get me started on the delay of the 4th generation Haswell CPU in what is supposed to be their flagship...

One loyal user I know on this board sent theirs back.

This reviewer is sending all of theirs back.

If everyone sends theirs back...

....I doubt it but is anyone at Lenovo listening...

Vote with your wallet.

My .01c

Brad

[Adda]

A bit dumb reviewer: Calls himself a "IT professional", but doesn´t know how to enter BIOS / UEFI and to turn off the TouchPad like with any other ThinkPad... Also, he could just go into the driver and turn it off there - seems he never even tried to adjust the settings for the TouchPad...

Yeah blame the reviewer for that one, the broken design is not Lenovo's fault, blame it on the people who don't know how to disable things.

[Medessec]

Well anyways...

the Touchpad sounds like the least of the problems with the Haswell Thinkpads... I also completely agree with this reviewer in the problem of a lack of indicators. To me- that's absolutely unacceptable. Not only is it for diagnostic purposes, it adds to the candid functionality-oriented experience with using a Thinkpad. I would've been fine if they took the classic green indicators and replaced them with a red LED, gamer-font style indicator setup. But replacing the green indicators with... absolutely nothing? Not even a stupid, inconspicuous HDD LED off to the side like on the HP DV laptops? God. I can't even express the level of frustration I have with this.

After hearing all I've heard and seeing these videos... I am currently holding a relatively negative attitude towards the Haswell Thinkpads at the moment. There are some plus points to them... and I understand they wanted to try something totally new... but geez. I don't know what to say.

[emeraldgirl08]

Hmm... if the idea was to integrate consumer features into the W540 design- then it worked. I do not recognize anything that characterizes a ThinkPad on that W540 save for the ThinkPad Logo (why is it upside down on the lid :sarcasm:) and the Trackpoint (which seems to be an anachronism for some new users who are not familiar with it). YMMV but I think it is a design that does not make sense and looks quite lackluster in its execution. It is quite generic now and tasteless like stale bread

[Ibthink]

Yeah blame the reviewer for that one, the broken design is not Lenovo's fault, blame it on the people who don't know how to disable things.

Let me ask a question: What exactly the negative points the "IT professional" mentiones in his review?

To answer this:
1. Less Indicator lights
2. No dedicated WLAN switch and no sound buttons
3. The TouchPad

The first two points are perfectly ok, because some people may depend on these things for some reason.

Now, why does he not like the TouchPad? The answer is simple: Because it leads to misclicks and unwanted mouse-movement when he types, because touches the TouchPad. However, this is a problem easily solved by turning of the TOuchPad if you use the TrackPoint or by lowering the sensitivity of the TouchPad in the driver.

If I do a review or get a new machine, I would surely enter the driver interface once - and I am not an "IT professional". And I am sure most people here also would do something similar, because some settings are always not perfect when the machine is factory-new (even the speed of the TrackPoint, this is one of the first things I adjust when I use a new ThinkPad).

And no, there is nothing "broken" about this design. It is just a bit different than the former design and takes some time to get used to it. Thats all.

But... the UltraNav is one of the coolest things about the T-series... and Lenovo just took a huge dump on it.

And perhaps that's why he's complaining quite a bit about it. He actually uses it, instead of deactivating it and just using a mouse. Which I understand a lot of people do... but I really like the Touchpad, and I'd probably end up punching someone if I had to use those crapshoots of a touchpad that these new laptops have. The UltraNav is one of the best Touchpads I've ever used, behind Toshiba's dotted-texture Synaptics touchpads, and Clevo's enormous touchpads on their Porta-Notes.

I really can´t comment on TouchPads, I nver use them, my driver is set on "classical Trackpoint-mode" and the TouchPad is disabled in BIOS.

However, I know many people (TouchPad-users) that hated the former UltraNav, that was used from T400s - T430(s), and I can understand why:
- Way to small for a modern TouchPad
- The rough surface - almost everyone I know hates it
- It wears of over time

After hearing all I've heard and seeing these videos... I am currently holding a relatively negative attitude towards the Haswell Thinkpads at the moment. There are some plus points to them... and I understand they wanted to try something totally new... but geez. I don't know what to say.

Well, I think: The best way is to try one out for yourself. I have read posts and impressions from many people in our German forum, and it seems the new ThinkPads are really polarizing: There are many people who like them, but there are also many people who don´t like them.

[Adda]

- and I am not an "IT professional".

Ok then I can tell you that the last thing an IT Professional wants to do is micromanage settings on their machines.

About touchpads, well, didn't a touchpad user on this forum say that he actually dislikes big touchpads? the reason is that, swiping is no problem, a touchpad doesn't have to be so big that you can reach the entire screen in a single swipe.
A big touchpad is in the way, even if you are a touchpad user, accidental clicks and movements of the pointer.

Also an IT Professional, doesn't necessarily know the usage pattern of his/her clients, so the system has to function reasonably well in it's default configuration, as user is unlikely to know how to change anything.

[pianowizard]

About touchpads, well, didn't a touchpad user on this forum say that he actually dislikes big touchpads?

That would be me! For years, I defended the touchpad on this forum, but from now on I'll only be defending *small* touchpads with dedicated buttons.

the reason is that, swiping is no problem, a touchpad doesn't have to be so big that you can reach the entire screen in a single swipe.
A big touchpad is in the way, even if you are a touchpad user, accidental clicks and movements of the pointer.

Exactly. I think a large touchpad with small dedicated buttons are still tolerable, but the buttonless touchpads that can be clicked almost anywhere are terrible. On both kinds of touchpad, it's easy to accidentally move the mouse pointer, and I can sort of live with that. But for a buttonless touchpad, it's often clicked accidentally as well, and to me that's unacceptable.

To date, the best Thinkpad touchpads remain those on the T4* and T6*. People who think touchpads should be as big as possible simply don't understand how to use touchpads properly.

However, I know many people (TouchPad-users) that hated the former UltraNav, that was used from T400s - T430(s), and I can understand why:
- Way to small for a modern TouchPad

"Modern" isn't necessarily good. In this particular case, "modern" means "stupid"!

[Ibthink]

Ok then I can tell you that the last thing an IT Professional wants to do is micromanage settings on their machines.

If you have to administrate 100 PCs and more, ok, yes, thats understandable. But 3? No, not really.

A big touchpad is in the way, even if you are a touchpad user, accidental clicks and movements of the pointer.

Really?
http://abload.de/img/wp_201403201p7j4n.jpg
http://abload.de/img/wp_20140320q0k9c.jpg

I have no problems at all with the size of the TouchPad. And even if I would touch the TouchPad and if it would be enabled, there won´t be any accidental clicks or mouse-movement, because the TouchPad is automatically disabled while typing...

On both kinds of touchpad, it's easy to accidentally move the mouse pointer, and I can sort of live with that. But for a buttonless touchpad, it's often clicked accidentally as well, and to me that's unacceptable.

Never happended to me with the new TouchPad. To click, you have to use a certain percentage of force. I can´t imagine that this could happen accidentially.

I could imagine this with this machine: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-HP- ... 584.0.html But the new ThinkPad TouchPad is not that big.

[Adda]

If you have to administrate 100 PCs and more, ok, yes, thats understandable. But 3? No, not really.

You have no idea how many systems the IT Professional in that video is maintaining, but it doesn't matter one bit, a lot of IT Professionals are supporting hundreds of systems, and micro management gets old instantly.

Really?
http://abload.de/img/wp_201403201p7j4n.jpg
http://abload.de/img/wp_20140320q0k9c.jpg

Yes really!

I have no problems at all with the size of the TouchPad. And even if I would touch the TouchPad and if it would be enabled, there won´t be any accidental clicks or mouse-movement, because the TouchPad is automatically disabled while typing...

If cause you have no problem with the touchpad, you don't use it.
I'm not always typing while my hands are on the palm rest am I?
I'm starting to think you'd call exploding batteries a feature too.

Never happended to me with the new TouchPad. To click, you have to use a certain percentage of force. I can´t imagine that this could happen accidentially.

Well, it happens to some people, so you don't have to imagine anything.

[pianowizard]

Never happended to me with the new TouchPad. To click, you have to use a certain percentage of force. I can´t imagine that this could happen accidentially.

You can't imagine this happening because, like you said, "I really can´t comment on TouchPads, I nver use them, my driver is set on "classical Trackpoint-mode" and the TouchPad is disabled in BIOS." But you just brought up an additional feature I dislike about the new buttonless touchpads: we now need to press harder to click. Believe me, the touchpads on old Thinkpads worked much better.

Granted, Thinkpads aren't the only laptops that are using these horrible "modern" touchpads, but Lenovo weren't required to follow this new trend. I first used one of these super-sized buttonless touchpads on a very low-end Thinkpad (could have been an Edge or L series). I hated it and thought such a stupid input device would never be found on a premium Thinkpad like the T or W Series. Now I've been proven wrong.

My next two laptops will both have fairly small touchpads. One is an extremely rarely Toughbook which I won about a week ago, and the other is an HP Elitebook that I am still shopping for.

[Ibthink]

If cause you have no problem with the touchpad, you don't use it.
I'm not always typing while my hands are on the palm rest am I?

Well, I use the keyboard and the TrackPoint, and in your scenario, you will have problems with the TouchPad wheter you are using it or not, because you also would Touch the TouchPad while typing.

So, what are you doing with you hands on the Plamrest if you don´t type, don´t use the TouchPad and don´t use the TrackPoint? Other than just lay your hands down, there isn´t much to do.

You can't imagine this happening because, like you said, "I really can´t comment on TouchPads, I nver use them, my driver is set on "classical Trackpoint-mode" and the TouchPad is disabled in BIOS." But you just brought up an additional feature I dislike about the new buttonless touchpads: we now need to press harder to click.

As I said before, I don´t have to, because the TouchPad would get in my way while typing in the scenario you have descriped.

Believe me, the touchpads on old Thinkpads worked much better.

Well: I have used and owned enough older ThinkPads that I think I would disagree on this (I have a nice Z61t here I can compare with the T440s in this moment). They sure worked different, but not better. And yes, I also used the TouchPad of all of my older ThinkPads.

[pianowizard]

As I said before, I don´t have to, because the TouchPad would get in my way while typing in the scenario you have descriped.

So you do admit that the huge giant buttonless touchpad is an inconvenience. A much smaller touchpad would be less of an inconvenience, correct?

So, what are you doing with you hands on the Plamrest if you don´t type, don´t use the TouchPad and don´t use the TrackPoint? Other than just lay your hands down, there isn´t much to do.

You mean, when you type, you never pause for even a second? I pause frequently while typing, because I need time to think what to write next. For example, just now, I paused for about 4 seconds after typing the previous sentence to think about what the next sentence should say.

Well: I have used and owned enough older ThinkPads that I think I would disagree on this

But your opinion is worthless because you aren't a routine touchpad user. By the same token, when someone who uses touchpads >99.9% of the time says the trackpoint is useless, it means absolutely nothing.

[Ibthink]

So you do admit that the huge giant buttonless touchpad is an inconvenience. A much smaller touchpad would be less of an inconvenience, correct?

No, I was only trying to descripe this scenario you and Adda have created (= Misclicks and accidental courser movement). As I said before, this does not happen to me, which you also can see in the pictures I posted here: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 16#p729612

You mean, when you type, you never pause for even a second? I pause frequently while typing, because I need time to think what to write next. For example, just now, I paused for about 4 seconds after typing the previous sentence to think about what the next sentence should say.

Of course I do, everything else would be unnatural. However, if I pause typing, my hands are not resting on the TouchPad, they are on the plamrest left and right the TouchPad, where they belong when I pause.

But your opinion is worthless because you aren't a routine touchpad user. By the same token, when someone who uses touchpads >99.9% of the time says the trackpoint is useless, it means absolutely nothing.

Maybe. But with this argument, I could say that your opinions about the new ThinkPads and the new TouchPad are also worthless, because you do not use them on a regular and daily basis.

[pianowizard]

which you also can see in the pictures I posted here: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 16#p729612

These photos show that it is possible to avoid hitting the touchpad, but they don't prove that the hands will never move the pointer or click the touchpad by accident. In the >10 years that I have used small touchpads, I never moved the pointer or clicked the buttons unintentionally, not even once. And I never wished these touchpads were bigger, except perhaps when I was a beginning touchpad user.

Of course I do, everything else would be unnatural. However, if I pause typing, my hands are not resting on the TouchPad, they are on the plamrest left and right the TouchPad, where they belong when I pause.

You mean, each time you pause, you move your hands away from the touchpad? Or, do you keep your hands constantly in these awkward positions while using a laptop? If a laptop requires me to keep my hands in such unnatural positions, it's not a laptop that I would want to own. It reminds me of an X60s that I once had. Its palm rest was so uncomfortably warm that the only way I could use that laptop for more than ~10 minutes was to raise my hands to avoid touching the palmrest. That solution certainly worked, but I quickly realized a better solution: not owning that laptop altogether! So I sold it after just two weeks.

Maybe. But with this argument, I could say that your opinions about the new ThinkPads and the new TouchPad are also worthless, because you do not use them on a regular and daily basis.

I have used large, buttonless touchpads numerous times. We are discussing a technology found on most laptops that came out in the past year or two, not features unique to the W540. I came to this thread to whine about these awful touchpads, not your beloved, flawless Thinkpads.

[Ibthink]

You mean, each time you pause, you move your hands away from the touchpad? Or, do you keep your hands constantly in these awkward positions while using a laptop?

I would consider this the normal position when I am using the TrackPoint. I don´t think it is akward.

I have used large, buttonless touchpads numerous times. We are discussing a technology found on most laptops that came out in the past year or two, not features unique to the W540. I came to this thread to whine about these awful touchpads, not your beloved, flawless Thinkpads.

Well. This is a thread about a W540 review.

I never said ThinkPads are flawless. I hope it is not too difficult to stay on an impersonal level in this discussion.

And one additional note: The new ThinkPad-TouchPad is a bit different than many other buttonless-touchpads you will find on consumer notebooks in electronic markets like Best-Buy (in the USA) or Media-Mart (here in Europe). To name just one difference, it is not a hinged design (like most other buttonless TouchPads, and also the ones on Macbooks), it can be pressed everywhere with the same amount of pressure.

And I also don´t want to say that buttonless TrackPads are absolutely the best or flawless. For example, you can only press one button at the same time, which is a drawback compared to tradional TouchPads. But in some ascpects I would say they are better, because you just can click anywhere. And it seems the market has decided that these ClickPads are winning, so that why many manufacturers now use them.

[pianowizard]

I never said ThinkPads are flawless. I hope it is not too difficult to stay on an impersonal level in this discussion.

You never said all Thinkpads are flawless, but you have said numerous times that the latest Thinkpads are. You know, when you first came to this forum to praise the current Thinkpads, I bought what you said. But then you started defending even their most glaring shortcomings. People who do that come across as religious fanatics or employees working for a certain company, and I tend to doubt everything that they say. (You aren't a Lenovo employee, are you?) I was never very eager to try any of the current Thinkpads to begin with, but your over-the-top comments made me even less enthusiastic. Hyperbole won't help you promote a product.

I have praised the Toughbook CF-Y7 on numerous occasions, but I have also pointed out its flaws, e.g. its keyboard layout, ugly display lid, very average screen, etc.

And one additional note: The new ThinkPad-TouchPad is a bit different than many other buttonless-touchpads you will find on consumer notebooks in electronic markets like Best-Buy (in the USA) or Media-Mart (here in Europe). To name just one difference, it is not a hinged design (like most other buttonless TouchPads, and also the ones on Macbooks), it can be pressed everywhere with the same amount of pressure.

Like I said, the fact that it can be pressed everywhere is the biggest problem! This is a con, not a pro! It would be better if only the bottom could be pressed lightly, so that I would accidentally click the touchpad only if my palm happens to touch the lower area. And the needlessly large surface presents an additional problem.

[Ibthink]

I never said that the current ThinkPads are flawless.

You know, when you first came to this forum to praise the current Thinkpads, I bought what you said. But then you started defending even their most glaring shortcomings

Well, how could I not defend them if there are so many lies, nonsense and rumours about them here? For example: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 48#p729128 This post is not backed by any knowledge, experince or something like that. These are just speculations. Why should I not correct something like that? Most people here never even used them once, but still, they seem to know everything about them. And this is inculding you, since you also making assumptions about a product you never used youself.

Please, tell me some of the flaws of the current ThinkPads that are not subjective. Because "keyboard layout" and such things are subjective, as is the whole experince of any Notebook. Many people here would say for example that these little LEDs are very important. Many other people would disagree.

(You aren't a Lenovo employee, are you?) I was never very eager to try any of the current Thinkpads to begin with, but your over-the-top comments made me even less enthusiastic. Hyperbole won't help you promote a product.

This is no problem for me, since I don´t promote anything here and since I don´t work for Lenovo.

I have praised the Toughbook CF-Y7 on numerous occasions, but I have also pointed out its flaws, e.g. its keyboard layout, ugly display lid, very average screen, etc.

Well, ask other users of the T440s if you want. Most users of the T440s are also happy and the T440s is not without reason the ThinkPad with the highest rating on Notebookcheck.net, see: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Upd ... 564.0.html What are the "most glaring shortcomings" there?

Like I said, the fact that it can be pressed everywhere is the biggest problem! This is a con, not a pro! It would be better if only the bottom could be pressed lightly, so that I would accidentally click the touchpad only if my palm happens to touch the lower area. And the needlessly large surface presents an additional problem.

Well, for you maybe. For me it is a pro, because I like the ability to press it anywhere. It just is more flexible, I am not bound to a certain region of the TouchPad to do clicks.

[Adda]

ibthink, some people have tried so many laptops, that they know good design when they see it, and when reviews BACK UP THEIR SUSPICIONS, like the review above, well then it's proven that we know good design when we see it.

RealBlackStuff lacks experience? that is hilarious.

[pianowizard]

Well, how could I not defend them if there are so many lies, nonsense and rumours about them here? For example: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 48#p729128 This post is not backed by any knowledge, experince or something like that. These are just speculations. Why should I not correct something like that? Most people here never even used them once, but still, they seem to know everything about them. And this is inculding you, since you also making assumptions about a product you never used youself.

I know "everything" about the W540? What did I say specifically about the W540? Again, I have been commenting only in general terms on large, buttonless touchpads, especially those that can be clicked anywhere. These touchpads are intrinsically problematic, because they are huge and clickable everywhere.

Please, tell me some of the flaws of the current ThinkPads that are not subjective. Because "keyboard layout" and such things are subjective, as is the whole experince of any Notebook. Many people here would say for example that these little LEDs are very important. Many other people would disagree.

Virtually all "likes" and "dislikes" are subjective. If you want to see a laptop review that's purely objective, the only things it would be allowed to mention would be technical specifications.

This is no problem for me, since I don´t promote anything here and since I don´t work for Lenovo.

Whether you call it promoting or defending, you would be more convincing if your comments were less extreme.

Well, ask other users of the T440s if you want. Most users of the T440s are also happy and the T440s is not without reason the ThinkPad with the highest rating on Notebookcheck.net, see: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Upd ... 564.0.html What are the "most glaring shortcomings" there?

A major problem that people have brought up countless times is Lenovo's fiddling with keyboards and pointing devices for no good reason. Even those Lenovo bloggers stopped defending this long ago, while you are still going at it. I think Lenovo should pay you big bucks.

Well, for you maybe. For me it is a pro, because I like the ability to press it anywhere. It just is more flexible, I am not bound to a certain region of the TouchPad to do clicks.

And this isn't a subjective statement?

[Ibthink]

When reviews BACK UP THEIR SUSPICIONS, like the review above

Which suspicions? That there are no LEDs and hardwarebuttons for multimedia? To know that, you don´t need this "review".

RealBlackStuff lacks experience? that is hilarious.

I have never doubted that RBS has a wide range of experinces with older ThinkPads.

And still, that experince doesn´t matter if he is talking about "the main causes of discontent is the difference in touchpad texture (from smooth to gritty)." about the T440s, than this is just based on no experince, because this just doesn´t happen with the T440(s). End of story. Not even experince does safe one from making false assumptions.

Virtually all "likes" and "dislikes" are subjective. If you want to see a laptop review that's purely objective, the only things it would be allowed to mention would be technical specifications.

Absolutely correct.

A major problem that people have brought up countless times is Lenovo's fiddling with keyboards and pointing devices for no good reason. Even those Lenovo bloggers stopped defending this long ago, while you are still going at it.

And why not? I am using both the new TouchPad and the new keyboard for myself, why should I change my opinion on them? Because some people don´t like change or getting used to something new? There is no real reason to fight against these changes.

And this isn't a subjective statement?

Sure it is. It was intended to be one.

[Adda]

Which suspicions? That there are no LEDs and hardwarebuttons for multimedia? To know that, you don´t need this "review".

That usability, serviceability and quality has gone down, and that the product no longer resembles a ThinkPad.

And still, that experince doesn´t matter if he is talking about "the main causes of discontent is the difference in touchpad texture (from smooth to gritty)." about the T440s, than this is just based on no experince, because this just doesn´t happen with the T440(s). End of story. Not even experince does safe one from making false assumptions.

So because you have no problem with the texture, no one does?
Some people almost get injured by the MacBook Pro plamrest, but some don't, does that mean that there is no problem with said palmrest?

[PowerPC]

Lenovo modern features in classic ThinkPads

[Adda]

Lenovo modern features in classic ThinkPads

Ah yes they all have buttons, even though most of them are very very compact, much smaller footprint to screen size ratio then modern laptops.

[PowerPC]

Clarification: I dislike most of the modern ThinkPad features very strongly.

My ideal ThinkPad would be basically an A31p with modern hardware. As a compromise, I'm using a 15" 4:3 T60. I'll probably end building a T61/R60 Frankenpad with the nice 2010 140M T61 planar (T61p had 570M) I bought from TuuS. I was considering using a T60 body for it, but the R60 has more internal space, and it will be interesting for some more aggressive modding I'm willing to try out.