Upgrading motherboard in thinkpad X61? X201? Others?

[chriskirk180]

Well I have 3 X61's and an X61s and since the x41 release, i like this form factor the best. I also can't use trackpads so all other laptop manufacturers are out. The X1 perhaps would have been nice but I need the standard keyboard and key layout including F1-F12 and Insert/home/delete and directional keys.

I'm a bit chicken to try the pinmod to go from 200 to 266MHz FSB but I may try it on the X61s which I barely use. Since I took apart one of my X61's to upgrade wifi from 3945ABG to Intel 5300, I realized that most of the interior could be gutted and perhaps another mobo could be retrofitted? The only things I would want to keep on the X61 is the screen (I like 4:3) and keyboard. I read somewhere in another post that the X201 mobo is smaller than the X61's and I wonder about the following:

- Power connect is the same so I should be able to power it
- not sure about keyboard connector compatibility?
- not sure about the lcd harness an pinouts - might be able to make a passive converter?
- The only external ports I would really need are usb, displayport and power, I think I should be able to extend them to the case

If not the X201's motherboard, then perhaps an intel NUC or even a motherboard from a totally separate laptop? Surely something must work if I'm willing to completely gut an X61. Thoughts?

-Chris

[ajkula66]

Welcome to the forum!

If not the X201's motherboard, then perhaps an intel NUC or even a motherboard from a totally separate laptop? Surely something must work if I'm willing to completely gut an X61. Thoughts?

It's not going to happen, plain and simple. There is no ThinkPad - let alone "other" - board that will fit into X61 chassis.

[chriskirk180]

It's not going to happen, plain and simple. There is no ThinkPad - let alone "other" - board that will fit into X61 chassis.

A raspberry pi would fit I'm sure, although it wouldn't offer the same performance. Surely there are other boards that could fit? If not and I'm simply really missing the mark here, I guess it's time to perhaps give in and "try" to get accustomed to a later thinkpad or other portable variant...

[ajkula66]

Surely there are other boards that could fit?

Nope.

If not and I'm simply really missing the mark here, I guess it's time to perhaps give in and "try" to get accustomed to a later thinkpad or other portable variant...

Indeed it is. However, you'll have to get used to the widescreen format of some kind...

Good luck.

[rkawakami]

Welcome to thinkpads.com!

While I applaud your ambition, retrofitting totally different laptop motherboards into cases they were not designed for is basically impossible and/or simply not cost effective. Let's take your example of X201 motherboard -> X61 case. The fact is that you're going to be restrained by the layout of the major connectors involved, starting with the battery. Most, if not all, recent Thinkpad motherboards have their ports/connectors soldered on so you're not going to be able to "move" things around. If you assume that you're going to put the X20x motherboard into the X6x bottom case (I'm staring at an X200s and an X61s which should be comparable since the X20x Hardware Maintenance Manual says the port locations are similar), the location of the battery connector is going to dictate where everything else ends up. I'm assuming for the moment that you would want to be able to use the laptop without having it plugged into an AC adapter. In this case that means the X200 motherboard will extend about 1/4" outside the left side of the X6x case. Of course, since the X200 motherboard is about 1" wider than the X6x, the right side will be about 3/4" outside the case as well. Even if you could find a board that is physically smaller than the X6x case, you will still have a problem with how things are laid out on the motherboard; like docking port locations, access panels on the bottom of the case (for getting to the memory or wireless cards), even basic things like mounting screws.

Laptop design is inherently a custom layout for each model. Even for models that were very similar to each other; like the difference between a 600E and 600X. From the top, they look identical. The cases have the same dimensions. Open up the lid and you couldn't tell the difference between them until you look at the nameplate sticker above the keyboard. All of the ports on the left side are identically placed. Same for the back panel. It's when you get to the right side that something is slightly off. The 600E has an RCA jack for microphone input and a single 3.5mm output jack for headphones. The 600X has three 3.5mm jacks; microphone, line-in and headphones. This one difference causes the external floppy port jack to move slightly to the front on the 600X. If you tried putting a 600X motherboard (which does support a faster CPU) into a 600E case, you would have to cut the case or give up the floppy port and probably the microphone input. Big deal you say? That's not the end of it. On the bottom of the 600X is an access panel for the MiniPCI modem card (or in one of my 600X systems, a wireless card). Problem is, the 600E case does not have such an access panel since that motherboard does not support MiniPCI. So you could put a 600X motherboard inside a 600E case (assuming screw locations are pretty close), but you would not have access to the MiniPCI card unless you cut a hole in the bottom of the 600E or disassemble the whole shebang again just to get at the card.

It's not like you have an industry-standard layout to design around, say like ATX, mini ATX, microATX, FlexATX motherboards and cases. In those situations, simple things like screw locations (standoffs) are in the exact same place no matter who makes the motherboard. You can buy any case you want, as long as it supports the form-factor of the motherboard you have. Larger cases usually can support the smaller boards as well since the mounting positions are known. The expansion cards are in the same location since the physical dimensions of the motherboards are a standard. With laptops, no such standard exists.

[ZaZ]

The X1 perhaps would have been nice but I need the standard keyboard and key layout including F1-F12 and Insert/home/delete and directional keys.

Thoughts?

As others have noted, a conversion is for the truly skilled, which would not include myself. If I'm not mistaken, the X6x ThinkPads used a keyboard with slightly smaller keys, so the X201 with its wide screen, would offer you a full sized keyboard with trackpoint and proper buttons.

If it were my money and the budget allowed, I would opt for the X220. It gets you the classic seven row ThinkPad keyboard. It has the same 768 vertical resolution. It's more squat, but offers a palatable 125 pixel density and the extra space on the sides does come in handy at times. Better yet, the X220 does have an optional IPS LCD that is so much better than any LCD in the X6x series, outside of the tablets of course. Plus, you can do a SSD + HDD for speed and space.

If you do decide on the NUC, Lenovo does make a compact Bluetooth keyboard that's pretty good. I have two of them. It's only a six row keyboard, but does have a FN Lock that gets you F1-F12.

[chriskirk180]

Thank you both for replying. As far as the ports are concerned, I think they can always be remove/extended, I think the big issue with retrofitting another motherboard would be if the silicon itself is too big for the x61. rkawakami: you make a good point about the power location issue and that in itself may well prevent it from ever happening.

However, I guess if one really thinks about the issue from the perspective of retrofitting something like a raspberry pi inside an X61 shell, I think all ports and necessary connections could be made fairly easily with plenty of room to spare. The biggest issue imo would perhaps to be to convert the power and display. If this assumption holds, I really don't see why there couldn't be another mobo either in existence or perhaps someday soon that could work. I guess I would be stirring things up too much if I were to propose considering retrofitting in a mini-itx board?

ZaZ: If I find a decently priced X220 w/ an IPS display I'll give it a try. I think that model after all is the last model before they switched to the chicklet style keyboard. Are there no other laptops in existence with good trackpoints? This is one of the primary reasons I'm stuck with Lenovo unfortunately. Also, I really don't like widescreen format since I do most of my work in console in Linux and prefer vertical space over horizontal, the X61 I think is a nice formfactor for this.

Thanks all for your replies, bar another solution I think I'll keep amassing X61's and perhaps someday even 10 years in the future mobos will be small enough to fit the latest into the almighty X61 shell

[ZaZ]

I've heard HPs with a ThinkPad cap are pretty decent, but a lot of them you don't get center button for scrolling which is annoying. I'm getting better with my Dell, but it's no ThinkPad.

I sort think of the X220 as the peak of the X series. You get all the above and Sandy Bridge was a game changing CPU. It gets insane battery life.

[flyingfishfinger]

If you happen to have a T8300 mobo you're wanting to take out, I'll happily take it off your hands

R

[RMSMajestic]

FYI, the forum admin of 51NB is making haswell based motherboards for X6 namely X62, but will be probably even harder to find than the T9300 X61s

[chriskirk180]

FYI, the forum admin of 51NB is making haswell based motherboards for X6 namely X62, but will be probably even harder to find than the T9300 X61s

Do you have a link or reference? I can't seem to find anything on this and 51nb forum (if I have the right one) looks to be in mandarin.

[RMSMajestic]

FYI, the forum admin of 51NB is making haswell based motherboards for X6 namely X62, but will be probably even harder to find than the T9300 X61s

Do you have a link or reference? I can't seem to find anything on this and 51nb forum (if I have the right one) looks to be in mandarin.

http://forum.51nb.com/thread-1519021-1-1.html
just started, will be based on i7-4558u :/
I'd rather hope it's based on i7-3632qm with EXPRESS card slot and SIM slot cos on the haswell/8x chipset I'd lose the possibility to install windows XP (windows 7 on a 1024*768 screen is painful).
But will see how it works out anyway.if turns out to be good enough I'll go for it. Just got a shiny brand new top cover for X61 from Israel

[Cigarguy]

But will see how it works out anyway.if turns out to be good enough I'll go for it. Just got a shiny brand new top cover for X61 from Israel

Assuming this MB is made (there is a good chance of this), I would not put any hope in just being able to order this. It will probably be as difficult to get as a T50 MB. Only hope we have is if one of the OEM MB manufacturer gets involve.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... &hilit=t50

[chriskirk180]

FYI, the forum admin of 51NB is making haswell based motherboards for X6 namely X62, but will be probably even harder to find than the T9300 X61s

This is game-changing! Good timing as well! I'm not familiar with that forum and have a basic idea of what happened with the T50 mobos based on the thread Cigarguy provided. The T4x series is a nice series - I've probably owned over 5 of them in my time but I have grown to much prefer the X61s: ever use your laptop on the tray in cattle class when suddenly the person in front jams their seat back?

From what I read, only one T50 mobo ever made it to the US and my poor translation skills on the 51NB thread seem to indicate there are many people already waiting in line for this. I also saw your post in there as well, RMSMajestic.

From the looks of it, his pics show what appear be a standard Intel socket, any reason there is a i7-4558u limitation? Any heads up on how many he'll make or how they can be ordered? Personally, I'd be in for at least 5, maybe more.

Thanks again for making us aware of this.

[RMSMajestic]

Assuming this MB is made (there is a good chance of this), I would not put any hope in just being able to order this. It will probably be as difficult to get as a T50 MB. Only hope we have is if one of the OEM MB manufacturer gets involve.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... &hilit=t50

Well, I didn't managed to get my hands on the T50 as well :/ When I got back to China this summer all T50s were sold out. I might be able to find a few selling on taobao but since I've got my ultimate QC T61, I don't quite have that incentive to get a T50 anymore.

What I, and some others on 51nb are trying to do, is to pursuade HOPE to accept paypal as payment method. Since it is rumored that he will charge deposit this time, I reckon we will have better hope for getting the X62 boards.

[RMSMajestic]

This is game-changing! Good timing as well! I'm not familiar with that forum and have a basic idea of what happened with the T50 mobos based on the thread Cigarguy provided. The T4x series is a nice series - I've probably owned over 5 of them in my time but I have grown to much prefer the X61s: ever use your laptop on the tray in cattle class when suddenly the person in front jams their seat back?

From what I read, only one T50 mobo ever made it to the US and my poor translation skills on the 51NB thread seem to indicate there are many people already waiting in line for this. I also saw your post in there as well, RMSMajestic.

From the looks of it, his pics show what appear be a standard Intel socket, any reason there is a i7-4558u limitation? Any heads up on how many he'll make or how they can be ordered? Personally, I'd be in for at least 5, maybe more.

Thanks again for making us aware of this.

T50 motherboard only supports Core i first generation
X62 is limited to i7 4558U because the CPU is a BGA one and it's just impossible to get PGA on X62. There were also considerations about costs, performance, cooling etc. etc. I think ivy bridge is a much better choice but sadly they went for hotwells

[Qing Dao]

I'd rather hope it's based on i7-3632qm with EXPRESS card slot and SIM slot cos on the haswell/8x chipset I'd lose the possibility to install windows XP (windows 7 on a 1024*768 screen is painful).

I installed Windows 8.1 on a 1024x768 X61 the other day and it seems pretty good. You might want to try that.

X62 is limited to i7 4558U because the CPU is a BGA one and it's just impossible to get PGA on X62. There were also considerations about costs, performance, cooling etc. etc. I think ivy bridge is a much better choice but sadly they went for hotwells

I pulled my X61 apart to change the thermal paste, and it looked like it was very roomy inside, relatively speaking. It was completely different from my T500, the difference being that there is the metal chassis with an outer plastic shell for the T500, while on the X61 the metal chassis is the shell, with the insides being relatively open and free. It seems that there was almost enough space to install a socket instead of a BGA processor. I am almost certain that if one were able to design a motherboard from scratch to fit inside in the X61, one could make it socketable.

[FryPpy]

I am almost certain that if one were able to design a motherboard from scratch to fit inside in the X61, one could make it socketable.

IMHO - this is very bad idea. Making custom mainboard for old but lovely thinkpad is a riskware thing. It is only worth while if they can do mass production. X61 and X61t (and X60 + X60t + X61s + X60s) have the same dimension mainboards. So making this mainboard can have many demand. But making it different from base X6x dimensions needs some custom mods to fit it. This mods need some skills but not all have them - so it reduse demand. Making simple plug and play replacement (and adding termal compound in kit with this mainboard;) makes this very affordable.

I wish good luck to 51nb people with this project!

PS
Design mistakes have made on T50 mainboard may be help make this decision. On T50 mainboard they made reconfigurable design. They make possibility to place discrete graphics and place PCH where old ICH are sitting. So they don't (AFAIK) make working T50 with discrete graphics and made worse thermal design for PCH. Placing PCH under heatsink (instead of GPU) can make better thermal design and free some space for good things (like 2nd miniPCIe or may be PCMCIA or LPT controller).

[chriskirk180]

I'm still a bit surprised an intel nuc or mini-itx wouldn't somehow fit... what makes this X62 so special?

[Qing Dao]

I'm still a bit surprised an intel nuc or mini-itx wouldn't somehow fit... what makes this X62 so special?

That might be really tough to get a mini-ITX in there. The motherboard dimensions are already too big to fit I think, even without any of the high-rise components on the motherboard and heatsinks. Another problem is that it would need dual LVDS to drive the screen. I have a mini-ITX Core 2 Quad motherboard, but the ram sticks straight up and it has only single LVDS to drive a POS screen.

IMHO - this is very bad idea. Making custom mainboard for old but lovely thinkpad is a riskware thing. It is only worth while if they can do mass production. X61 and X61t (and X60 + X60t + X61s + X60s) have the same dimension mainboards. So making this mainboard can have many demand. But making it different from base X6x dimensions needs some custom mods to fit it. This mods need some skills but not all have them - so it reduse demand. Making simple plug and play replacement (and adding termal compound in kit with this mainboard;) makes this very affordable.

Next time I take my X61 apart I will get accurate measurements, but I think even with the CPU in the stock location, a socket might be possible. It would probably require the heatpipe to make direct die contact in order for the height to not be a problem, but it could certainly be possible. This is just from my quick observations on it and coming up with this idea after the fact without taking any actual measurements, so maybe I'm wrong.

[chriskirk180]

That might be really tough to get a mini-ITX in there. The motherboard dimensions are already too big to fit I think, even without any of the high-rise components on the motherboard and heatsinks. Another problem is that it would need dual LVDS to drive the screen. I have a mini-ITX Core 2 Quad motherboard, but the ram sticks straight up and it has only single LVDS to drive a POS screen.

You think this thin mini-itx would also have issues? http://www.gigabyte.com/MicroSite/324/images/guide.html

DIMMs sit flat and has LVDS. Why does the X61 need dual LVDS to drive the screen?

EDIT: I'm not too familiar with LVDS but it appears the screen in the X61 takes a standard LVDS input which the above mobo provides? What did you mean regarding the "single LVDS to drive a POS screen"?

http://www.beyondinfinite.com/lcd/Libra ... 01-101.pdf

[RMSMajestic]

I installed Windows 8.1 on a 1024x768 X61 the other day and it seems pretty good. You might want to try that.

I pulled my X61 apart to change the thermal paste, and it looked like it was very roomy inside, relatively speaking. It was completely different from my T500, the difference being that there is the metal chassis with an outer plastic shell for the T500, while on the X61 the metal chassis is the shell, with the insides being relatively open and free. It seems that there was almost enough space to install a socket instead of a BGA processor. I am almost certain that if one were able to design a motherboard from scratch to fit inside in the X61, one could make it socketable.

Well I found 1024*768 so much worse than 1400*1050 under windows7 and I've only used my X61 about 5 times since last year

If you have Tencent QQ, please add group 167153495. They have already discussed the possibility forhaving PGA CPUs, But it's just impossible. although X61 seem to be very roomy inside, it's actually very compact. I can't even extend the second mini PCI-e to the HDD.(was thinking of having 3G and hardware decode together, tried IDE cables but failed, can't close the keyboard properly)

[IRN]

If the X62 becomes available to purchase using paypal and international shipping I would buy at least three to upgrade my beloved x61 machines.

[FryPpy]

When i first sow X201 mainboard i have thought that it is possible to place it in X61 body. X20x mainboard does not stretches for all width (right side of X20x ocupated by cardreader) so it can be fitted in X61 body dimensions. The left connectors of X201 seems to be like in X61....
But Ray have written here all the bad nature of this project. All connectors are not on their places:(
Some BIG PICTURES to illustrate this (red things added to mismatched things):
1 - X201 mainboard sitting on top of X61 (on top of T60 . VGA connectors of X201 and X61 aligned but Ethernet moving to the left and express card goes to the right. And no place for mounting screw (hole). http://postimg.org/image/gyjkd1wht/
2 - the same as 1 (how long ethernet connector have moved) http://postimg.org/image/6pr3788g1/
3 - X201 aligned to the right adge (express card eject lever aligned to PCMCIA eject lever). No place for mounting screw and no place for water flush hole. http://postimg.org/image/h0v6b66dv/
4 - X61 mainboard have been removed from X61 body and X201 mainboard placed on top of X61 body. X201 mainboard aligned to the bottom adge of the body. There are 2 things in upper area that have prevent fitting it to body. To the right mainboard floats above HDD compartement adge. It means the normal 2.5" HDD doesn't fit. http://postimg.org/image/ba4zxfydv/
5 - All connectors on the left side are misplaced (if mainboard aligned to the bottom adge). http://postimg.org/image/63z55jroh/
6 - Power connector misplased. It should to be moved left but left side connectord goes out of the body if we do so. http://postimg.org/image/ulw0n0qqn/

BTW - sometimes body can be "cutted off" to get acces to connectors. But every such cut makes body more brake prone. X61 bodies very rugged. But i have seen some X20x bodies with fractures at the upper erea and near modem or network connector. After that body becomes flexible...

Other hints.
Any miniITX board will not fit. It have 170x170mm dimensions. While X61 have height of 200mm but 60mm must be freed to fan and battery.
Power things is a main thing of notebook. We want to recreate X61 as a laptop not as server (HTPC) or desktop replacement. So we want it to work well with battery (normal X6x battery). No one mini ITX or RPI have controllers for our batteries.
Many miniITX boards have 2 socketed memory array and other tall components (radiators, ATX connectors, capacitors) but X61 is very slim for them.
In most cases custom HSF must be designed for miniITX boards to work in X61 case.
Keyboard connection. There is a project to make adapter from thinkpad keyboard to USB. So it must be fitted to this design and not forget about power and other function buttons.
X61 have 2 miniPCIe slots and it is minimum (X201 can have 3nd). RPI have no.
RPI (especially model A+) is very compact. But i think any X61 can outperform RPI in terms of computational power.
(MHO) The only way to make RPI + X61 hybrid is the idea of getting mobile RPI development station in good body, but not to reviving X61 itself.

So I am waiting for X62.

[chriskirk180]

Hi FryPpy, thanks for your detailed reply. I agree the RPI probably wouldn't be the best bet for us. I understand some of the connectors would be misaligned by retrofitting a X201 mobo in a X61 body. The only connectors I actually care about are power and maybe USB, video would be nice but only if it can drive 2560x1600. Things like not being able to properly mount the mobo, I don't really care I would even duct tape the thing in if needed. What other obstacles can you think of? How about the LCD ribbon connector to power the LCD?

[Ole]

X62 would probably be my dream laptop.

[FryPpy]

I actually care about are power

DC connector is on flex wires in X61 so it can be modded - added wires / rerouted to new connector (at X201) - so it is no problem.
Battery connector is the main pain. on last photo it is clarly shown that it is misaligned. And the only way - is to move it ro right place on wires.... but this is not good decision... we lost some ruggedness in that point.

What other obstacles can you think of? How about the LCD ribbon connector to power the LCD?

X61 and X20x have the same LCD connector.... but pinout 80% different... so main plan is try to use X200 LCD ribbon cable and make adaptor to X61 LCD connector and may be to thinklight. And do some rework to "lid closed" sensor.

[Bibin]

I think for someone very ambitious and willing to cut up their case a bit and do some port relocation, the X201 motherboard may fit in the X60/X61 case. It would be an interesting frankenpad for sure.

The raspberry pi isn't worth using. You'd have to drive LVDS with it, which I don't think it will do natively. Furthermore, the raspberry pi is really just a cheap cell phone slapped onto a PCB in terms of processing and I/O. It's useful for a few cheap projects that need networking and an operating system, but for even simple web browsing and development it's a real pain to use. Plus, even the fastest SD cards make a mediocre boot drive.

[RMSMajestic]

I think for someone very ambitious and willing to cut up their case a bit and do some port relocation, the X201 motherboard may fit in the X60/X61 case. It would be an interesting frankenpad for sure.

The raspberry pi isn't worth using. You'd have to drive LVDS with it, which I don't think it will do natively. Furthermore, the raspberry pi is really just a cheap cell phone slapped onto a PCB in terms of processing and I/O. It's useful for a few cheap projects that need networking and an operating system, but for even simple web browsing and development it's a real pain to use. Plus, even the fastest SD cards make a mediocre boot drive.

Well, a simple solution to all:
The X61 with T9900 has come out
I'll let you guys know if anyone from 51nb is willing to sell his X61 T9900 motherboard (There is a T9600 one already in the market forum).

And I'll just rest comfortably on my X61s P8800

[axur-delmeria]

The X61 with T9900 has come out

Is the X61 heatsink enough to cool it down at full tilt? My T9300 goes over 80c on torture tests, and surely a T9900 will put out more heat.