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Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

X200, X201, X220 (including equivalent tablet models) and X300, X301 series specific matters only.
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axur-delmeria
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Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#1 Post by axur-delmeria » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:16 am

I chanced upon a Expresscard 2-port USB 3.0 adapter on a local store. The store's clerks were kind enough to let me test it before purchasing it. However I ran into an unusual issue:

When inserted, the card is detected in Linux (Debian 8. 64-bit), but when I plug in my USB 3.0 external HDD, the drive spins up, but its indicator LED doesn't light up, lsusb doesn't detect the USB HDD, and dmesg reports that "hotplug is not supported in this platform".

I also tried rebooting it with the card already inserted, but it still didn't work.

The card uses a Renesas chip, but I was unable to determine which one.

I also tried it on Windows 7 64-bit, but got the same results.

Does anyone have an idea what's going on?
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#2 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:46 am

Maybe that card does not provide enough power to run the HDD-motor?
Read dr_st's very informative posts on USB3.0 adapters: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=108201
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#3 Post by dr_st » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:51 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:Maybe that card does not provide enough power to run the HDD-motor?
Most likely it does not. Some adapters have a DC in socket which you can connect to one of your laptop's USB ports to get more power. Usually a matching cable is shipped with such adapters.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#4 Post by axur-delmeria » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:42 am

I forgot to mention that I also plugged in a USB SD card reader but it wasn't detected. The same SD card reader works on the X220's USB 2.0 ports
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#5 Post by dr_st » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:48 am

You may be looking into several different issues here.

On Windows - is the driver installed? Are both the Renesas controller, and the Renesas hub properly detected in the device manager?
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#6 Post by axur-delmeria » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:07 am

Since I didn't buy the card, I have no way of running tests. :oops:

Maybe I should check some BIOS settings, or maybe related to APSM?
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#7 Post by dr_st » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:42 am

Hard to know. These cards can be finicky, and the Renesas ones in particular.

Assuming it's a Renesas uPD720202-based card, then I can tell you that uPD720202+X220+ASPM enabled is a bad combo. Never got it to work properly.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#8 Post by automobus » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:34 am

You know about
lsusb
and
dmesg
, but you say nothing about type-PCIe ExpressCard. Next time, look at
dmesg | tail ;
after inserted ExpressCard. Or:
lspci -nn > /tmp/beforeec ;
insert ExpressCard ;
lspci -nn > /tmp/afterec ; diff beforeec afterec ;

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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#9 Post by axur-delmeria » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:48 am

Update:
My friend will be buying a few parts from Amazon.com, and I'll be joining in to reduce the shipping costs.

Is there an Expresscard USB 3.0 card that's 2-port, flush mount, and is known to work 100% on the X220? (links to Amazon.com items are much welcome) Because RMA is gonna be a pain if it doesn't work.

I've read other threads and they usually suggest an Asmedia-based card instead of a Renesas, but I can't seem to find any mention of the controller chip in the Amazon listings. :(
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#10 Post by dr_st » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:27 am

Assuming you want one that's 54mm (and I would), there's this:
http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Expr ... 00535CMEE/

Claimed to be based on the uPD720200, which is an earlier revision, and did not exhibit any issues when I tested it (although I tested a different adapter, which was not flush).

There is a USB3.0 & eSATA version, which I tested and assuming they haven't changed vendors, it's ASMedia-based.
http://www.amazon.com/Sienoc-Express-Ex ... 00F876QJ4/

There is a 3-port variant based on Fresco Logic something, but it doesn't have a DC in, so you will not be able to connect anything that requires a lot of power and has no external power supply of its own. Plus I don't see it being sold by Amazon:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Ports-USB-3-0 ... 1515761051

Read my investigative thread:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=110163
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#11 Post by axur-delmeria » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:46 am

How about this one?
http://www.amazon.com/Express-ExpressCa ... 008CELO56/

The Startech one is a tad bit expensive, and there's no guarantee that it has the older uDP720200.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#12 Post by dr_st » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:41 am

The ASMedia in your link looks like a good option, and very cheap. Try to get it while you can. :)
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#13 Post by Temetka » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:09 am

Which ExpressCard/34 is "the best" USB 3.0 adapter for a T410 running linux and windows? I didn't want to create a new thread since there is already a lot of good info in this one.

Thanks.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#14 Post by dr_st » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:17 am

From the ones I tested in my thread linked above - I'd say that the dual-port ASMedia one unless you think you may need the extra power from the power jack, in which case the single-port Fresco Logic is what you need.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#15 Post by Temetka » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:02 am

I found this one:

http://www.amazon.com/ExpressCard-34mm- ... 4TNH9FGT7G

One of the reviewers mentioned it worked good in their T410, which is the same machine I have. So for a few bucks I think it's worth a shot. I have to wait until payday though.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#16 Post by axur-delmeria » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:48 am

I find it strange that 12-inchers like the X200/201 and X220 have 54mm Expresscard slots while the larger T410 and T420 only have 34mm ones. :<

Aw dang. The ASM1042 card I wanted to guy ships from China, and probably has a lot of hidden import duties :x
My friend says he can only get items that are either directly sold, or "fulfilled" by Amazon. :(

The Startech, though probably the best, is pricey, and the rest don't have any DC input jacks.

I'm tempted to try out the 3-port Fresco Logic card though. http://www.amazon.com/Sienoc-Express-Ad ... 00F875HK8/

I'm wondering if it's possible use the third port as a DC input, by using a USB cable like this:

Image

then plug one end to a USB 2.0 port, and the other to one of the expresscard's USB 3.0 ports. Do you think it will work? (I really hope so)

Failing that, I'll probably get one or two of these USB 3.0 Y-Cables (I have two external HDDs). http://www.amazon.com/Storite-Superspee ... 00TH1O9DM/
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
On loan: X220 4291-P79 i5-2520M
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#17 Post by axur-delmeria » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:21 am

I'm bumping this since I added quite a few things to my last post and am in need of some advice. :oops:
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
On loan: X220 4291-P79 i5-2520M
In pieces: two retired but working X61Ts
RIP: 760XD 9546-U9E; X61 7676-A24; and a BOE-Hydis HV121P01-100 in failed SXGA+ mod
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#18 Post by dr_st » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:47 pm

You know, I kinda don't think you could use that USB port as a DC input. The Y-splitter sounds like a good bet, though.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#19 Post by axur-delmeria » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:38 am

I finally got the Expresscard USB 3.0 host controller.

A few things:

1. It has a Fresco Logic FL1100 controller chip.
2. Its third USB port works as a 5v input. :D
3. I can't make it work on Linux (for now). :( It works on Windows 7 though.
4. The card has a tendency to get stuck inside the slot. Fortunately I always carry a small pair of pliers to pull it out. :wink:
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
On loan: X220 4291-P79 i5-2520M
In pieces: two retired but working X61Ts
RIP: 760XD 9546-U9E; X61 7676-A24; and a BOE-Hydis HV121P01-100 in failed SXGA+ mod
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#20 Post by JPOESQ » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:36 pm

axur-delmeria wrote:Update:
My friend will be buying a few parts from Amazon.com, and I'll be joining in to reduce the shipping costs.

Is there an Expresscard USB 3.0 card that's 2-port, flush mount, and is known to work 100% on the X220? (links to Amazon.com items are much welcome) Because RMA is gonna be a pain if it doesn't work.

I've read other threads and they usually suggest an Asmedia-based card instead of a Renesas, but I can't seem to find any mention of the controller chip in the Amazon listings. :(
I tried this one in my X220:

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Expr ... 00535CMEE/

and it just would not play nice with the Renesas controller already in my X220.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#21 Post by dr_st » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:11 pm

axur-delmeria wrote:2. Its third USB port works as a 5v input. :D
Really?! Is it the middle one? How did you find out, and how does one get it to work as input?
JPOESQ wrote:I tried this one in my X220:

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Expr ... 00535CMEE/

and it just would not play nice with the Renesas controller already in my X220.
What chip is in that card and in what way did it not play nice? Also, why did you buy one if your X220 already has a Renesas USB3 controller?
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#22 Post by JPOESQ » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:14 pm

dr_st wrote:
axur-delmeria wrote:2. Its third USB port works as a 5v input. :D
Really?! Is it the middle one? How did you find out, and how does one get it to work as input?
JPOESQ wrote:I tried this one in my X220:

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Expr ... 00535CMEE/

and it just would not play nice with the Renesas controller already in my X220.
What chip is in that card and in what way did it not play nice? Also, why did you buy one if your X220 already has a Renesas USB3 controller?
I would have to check the chip. The card is now in my T43p and works fine.

I added the card to my X220 because I needed more than one USB 3.0 port, but the drivers would never work to make the ports on the card work correctly. The Renesas drivers for the card conflicted with the Renesas controller in the X220.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#23 Post by axur-delmeria » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:02 pm

Good news, I finally got it to work on Linux! :D
I just followed the instructions on this thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1907551, in particular:
add xhci-hcd to /etc/modules,
and then I created a file at /etc/modprobe.d/usb3 and added
softdep ehci-hcd pre: xhci-hcd
softdep uhci-hcd pre: ehci-hcd
softdep ohci-hcd pre: ehci-hcd
I think the cause of the problem is a conflict between the EHCI (USB 2.0) and the XHCI (USB 3.0) kernel modules. The EHCI module usually loads first, grabbing hotplug rights (or something like that) so the XHCI module can't use it (hence, no USB detection). This may be what caused the problem with the first card I tested.
Then again, I could be completely wrong and maybe the card simply malfunctions because the Expresscard slot can't provide enough amperes to power 3 ports.
dr_st wrote:Really?! Is it the middle one? How did you find out, and how does one get it to work as input?
I think any of the 3 ports will work as input. All you need is a USB cable with male Type A plugs on both ends, like this one:
Image
I'm going to make a very short cable to connect the card to the USB 2.0 port below the Expresscard slot. That way it will be as least obstructive as possible.
I haven't tried plugging 2 HDDs at the same time. If the current leeched from the USB 2.0 port isn't enough, hopefully the Y-splitter cable I bought will take care of it.

I'm hitting burst speeds of slightly over 100 MB/s (copied a 6GB file back and forth), sustained is around 45-55 MB/s. It's the HDD's limit, I guess.

One last thing: the card doesn't get stuck inside the slot anymore. Maybe all the inserting and pulling out straightened out whatever kinks in the metal and plastic body. :D
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
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In pieces: two retired but working X61Ts
RIP: 760XD 9546-U9E; X61 7676-A24; and a BOE-Hydis HV121P01-100 in failed SXGA+ mod
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#24 Post by dr_st » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:49 pm

JPOESQ wrote:The Renesas drivers for the card conflicted with the Renesas controller in the X220.
I don't think it has anything to do with drivers conflict, though. IMO it's more likely to be the more general problem of Renesas ExpressCards and their issue with ASPM on laptops like the X220.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#25 Post by axur-delmeria » Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:34 am

Dang. Plugging 2 external HDDs causes the card to shut down, even with both the "DC-in" cable and Y-splitter cable plugged in. :(
Do I have to plug in a power bank or something? It sounds like a really bad idea though. :BAAAD!:

On the bright side, since I got the hotplug issue sorted out, I just need to pop out the card, slide it back in, and it's up and running again. :banana:
JPOESQ wrote:The Renesas drivers for the card conflicted with the Renesas controller in the X220.
Maybe the driver wasn't designed to handle two instances of the Renesas controller? AFAIK some drivers are like that.
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#26 Post by dr_st » Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:54 am

Some drivers are indeed like that, but having done sufficient testing, I can say it's not the case with these ones.
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Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#27 Post by axur-delmeria » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:20 am

A new twist in my USB 3.0 Expresscard troubles:

1. The hotplug issue on Linux returned, after I booted to Windows 7 (had to download Windows updates for use in another computer) and used "Safely Remove this device" on the USB 3.0 card.
2. It was "fixed" after I went back to Windows 7, inserted the card, then rebooted to Linux without using "Safely Remove this device".

I don't know what exactly is going on, but somehow the Window driver configures the card (or maybe the PCIe port itself) to enable hotplugging.

I want to solve this issue without having to go through Windows, as much as possible.

Fresco Logic claims that their USB 3.0 hardware is "firmwareless" so it's probably not a firmware issue.
It could be the APSM settings like in the Renesas chips, but of course this is pure speculation.

I'm not familiar with peeking and poking around PCI/PCIe registers in any OS, so any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
On loan: X220 4291-P79 i5-2520M
In pieces: two retired but working X61Ts
RIP: 760XD 9546-U9E; X61 7676-A24; and a BOE-Hydis HV121P01-100 in failed SXGA+ mod
:cry:

axur-delmeria
Senior ThinkPadder
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Posts: 2282
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 5:49 am
Location: Metro Manila, Philippines

Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#28 Post by axur-delmeria » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:06 am

Update:
I tried reading the configuration space of the Fresco Logic FL1100 Expresscard USB 3.0 controller r via lspci -x

Here are my findings.
From a cold boot, after the card is inserted and Linux initializes it:

Code: Select all

05:00.0 USB controller: Fresco Logic Device 1100 (rev 01)
00: 73 1b 00 11 00 00 10 00 01 30 03 0c 00 00 00 00
10: 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
20: 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 73 1b 00 11
30: 00 00 00 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ff 01 00 00
The hotplug issue occurs, no matter how many times I reinsert the card. So I give up and eject the card and boot to Windows 7.

After booting into Windows 7, the card is inserted and the FL1100's Windows drivers initialize the card.
I do not eject the card, but reboot the system and start Linux.

I run lspci -x again, and the output is:

Code: Select all

05:00.0 USB controller: Fresco Logic Device 1100 (rev 01)
00: 73 1b 00 11 06 04 10 00 01 30 03 0c 10 00 00 00
10: 04 00 c0 f1 00 00 00 00 04 00 c1 f1 00 00 00 00
20: 04 10 c1 f1 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 73 1b 00 11
30: 00 00 00 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0b 01 00 00
As I mentioned earlier, if I let Windows configure the card then reboot to Linux, the hotplug issue is solved.
As can be seen, some of the values are different, and it's possible that these are the keys to solving the hotplug issue.

Now, the question is, how do I change the config in Linux?
Is "setpci" the command I need to use?
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
On loan: X220 4291-P79 i5-2520M
In pieces: two retired but working X61Ts
RIP: 760XD 9546-U9E; X61 7676-A24; and a BOE-Hydis HV121P01-100 in failed SXGA+ mod
:cry:

dr_st
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Posts: 7976
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:20 am
Location: Israel

Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#29 Post by dr_st » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:28 am

Yes, setpci is the command.
Thinkpad 25 (20K7), X1 Carbon (20HQ), Yoga 14 (20FY), T430s (IPS FHD + Classic Keyboard), X220 4291-4BG
X61 7673-V2V, T60 2007-QPG, T42 2373-F7G, X32 (IPS Screen), A31p w/ Ultrabay Numpad, A21m 2628-GXU

axur-delmeria
Senior ThinkPadder
Senior ThinkPadder
Posts: 2282
Joined: Mon May 28, 2012 5:49 am
Location: Metro Manila, Philippines

Re: Expresscard USB 3.0 card issue

#30 Post by axur-delmeria » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:43 pm

So, the commands would be something like:

Code: Select all

setpci -s 05:00.0 0x04.b=06,04
setpci -s 05:00.0 0x0c.b=10
setpci -s 05:00.0 0x12.b=c0,f1
setpci -s 05:00.0 0x1a.b=c1,f1
setpci -s 05:00,0 0x21.b=10,c1,f1
setpci -s 05:00.0 0x3c.b=0b
Did I get it right? Like I said, I'm not really used to poking registers, though I understand how dangerous it can be if I screw up.
Daily driver: X220 4291-C91 i7-2620M

Backup: X601 Core 2 Duo T8100
Toy: X60F Core Solo U1300
On loan: X220 4291-P79 i5-2520M
In pieces: two retired but working X61Ts
RIP: 760XD 9546-U9E; X61 7676-A24; and a BOE-Hydis HV121P01-100 in failed SXGA+ mod
:cry:

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