X220 or X250

[Sendoushi]

Good morning,

I'm new around here. I'm a designer and developer (emphasis on developer) that always liked Thinkpads but never owned one. Now it's the time.
At the moment, I have a desktop and a borrowed Macbook air. I need a 3rd computer essentially for travelling and "soft" usage. Macbook air is from my wife and sometimes she needs it. Other times I don't want to carry such an expensive laptop. Here comes Thinkpad. I love the classic keyboard and since I come from a Macbook air I also find some pleasure on the new chiclet.

I was thinking on buying the X220 with IPS (used around 250 €) or the X250 (only found one around 700 €). Performance wise I would go with X220 but there are two things that concern me on the X220 (maybe there are more that i'm not seeing):
- Older processors will provide more heat and less battery since this will be kind of a sofa laptop the heat problem matters
- Everyone says the trackpad sucks. I guess because of its size right? But then maybe I wouldn't mind to use the trackball (never used one).

Do you think X250 is worth that price? I would prefer to go with the cheaper X220.

[nitrocaster]

X250 has much worse keyboard. Consider X230: it's slightly more energy efficient due to newer CPU and you still can install a classic 6-row keyboard into it. With 9-cell battery I got 9-10 hours of non CPU intensive use with Wi-Fi enabled.
Trackpad isn't so bad, but I use the trackpoint instead of it.
A notable problem with relatively old thinkpads is low screen resolution. X220/X230 have only 1366x768. I'm working on a hardware modification to get FullHD (chinese and japanese guys already got it working, but it's difficult to get one).

[Sendoushi]

X250 has much worse keyboard. Consider X230: it's slightly more energy efficient due to newer CPU and you still can install a classic 6-row keyboard into it. With 9-cell battery I got 9-10 hours of non CPU intensive use with Wi-Fi enabled.
Trackpad isn't so bad, but I use the trackpoint instead of it.
A notable problem with relatively old thinkpads is low screen resolution. X220/X230 have only 1366x768. I'm working on a hardware modification to get FullHD (chinese and japanese guys already got it working, but it's difficult to get one).

From what I researched, retrofiting the leyboard there isn't that easy. It isn't just plug and play. Besides that, X230 (specially with IPS panel) aren't that easy to find. A quick search on ebay tells me it costs 100/150€ more. What is the CPU type? Is it still Sandy like X220?

Is X250 keyboard that bad? I'm used to chiclet so... I would prefer the X220 keyboard.

This test states that Ivy Bridge heats more than Sandy. http://www.uryaen.com/Sandy-Bridge-vs.- ... 3770K.html so is it really more efficient? Maybe in the wattage use.

[RealBlackStuff]

Welcome to the Forum.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to that comparison.
The CPUs used there were prototypes, made for desktops.

As for an X230 with X220 keyboard: you could put in a WTB: (want to buy) or LF: (looking for) ad in our Marketplace forum.
I'm sure someone will be able to sell you a modded one (OR do the mod for you).
To facilitate that, it might be helpful if you update your Location field in the User Control Panel/Profile (top of this page)

[nitrocaster]

From what I researched, retrofiting the leyboard there isn't that easy. It isn't just plug and play.

Just in case you missed recent updates: manual and discussion

Besides that, X230 (specially with IPS panel) aren't that easy to find. A quick search on ebay tells me it costs 100/150€ more. What is the CPU type? Is it still Sandy like X220?

Ivy Bridge.

Is X250 keyboard that bad? I'm used to chiclet so... I would prefer the X220 keyboard.

This test states that Ivy Bridge heats more than Sandy. http://www.uryaen.com/Sandy-Bridge-vs.- ... 3770K.html so is it really more efficient? Maybe in the wattage use.

Although it has the same TDP, it's more efficient - just because of 22nm design instead of 32nm. Another improvement is builtin GPU, which is somewhat faster than one in Sandy Bridge.

[Sendoushi]

Thanks for the replies. I have to update my profile yes.

What about X240? It isn't that more expensive and it seems people changed that trackpad with the X250 one pretty easily.

[hhhd1]

x230 ivybridge is much more efficient than sandybridge in x220, this is noticeable at medium loads, like if in power saving mode and the processor is between 1.2ghz and 2.0ghz.

[Sendoushi]

x230 ivybridge is much more efficient than sandybridge in x220, this is noticeable at medium loads, like if in power saving mode and the processor is between 1.2ghz and 2.0ghz.

I do think I'll use it essentially on medium loads.

Now I'm researching the x240 with the x250 trackpad.

[Pokrzept]

If i were you I'd rather pass on x240. Here where I live both x240 and x250 are equally priced, but the younger sibling is superior to its predecessor in both cpu and gpu performance. What's more x240 RAM capacity is limited to 8 GB - same as x61 from 2008 while x250 support up to 16 GB in one module - same as x220 and x230 but with 2x 8GB modules. Please consider investing your money in x230 with i7-3520M, 16GB of RAM, IPS display, classic keyboard, mSata SSD and 7mm thick 2,5" HDD in your main drive bay.

[Sendoushi]

If i were you I'd rather pass on x240. Here where I live both x240 and x250 are equally priced, but the younger sibling is superior to its predecessor in both cpu and gpu performance. What's more x240 RAM capacity is limited to 8 GB - same as x61 from 2008 while x250 support up to 16 GB in one module - same as x220 and x230 but with 2x 8GB modules. Please consider investing your money in x230 with i7-3520M, 16GB of RAM, IPS display, classic keyboard, mSata SSD and 7mm thick 2,5" HDD in your main drive bay.

Oh... x240 and x250 only have one memory slot? I actually can live with only 8gb but still...
What about the x230 trackpad? I guess you're a trackpoint kind of guy no? From what I know the x230 has a maximum resolution height of 768px won't that be... too small? I actually found some x230 on ebay around 300€ (most without the IPS).

Even with the choice available you still prefer x230 to x250 and x240?

[Pokrzept]

What I dislike about x240/50 is the way Lenovo redesigned input devices:
- classic keyboard has been replaced by an new chiclet style one, which in case of 12" subnotebooks is even smaller than in 14/15" series;
- palmrest space gained by resizing keyboard has been wasted for an larger clickpad, which in my opinion is worse than that you could find in T60/61/400 (I do not fancy its slippy, unstable wobbly surface);
- due to reduced size of the keyboard and clickpad enlargement trackpoints buttons are now closer to the trackpoints joystick, which forces you to lay your hands on a different angle, which in case L450 I find less ergonomic than prior series (this effect may have even bigger scale on 12,5" which as I said has even smaller keyboard);

X220/30 aint perfect either - you can find plenty of posts about its weaknesses - but still I find typing/working on my x220 far more comfortable. And when it comes to the display resolution - I find 14.1" FHD display to dense without scaling, and 12,5" is even worse.

[Sendoushi]

What I dislike about x240/50 is the way Lenovo redesigned input devices:
- classic keyboard has been replaced by an new chiclet style one, which in case of 12" subnotebooks is even smaller than in 14/15" series;
- palmrest space gained by resizing keyboard has been wasted for an larger clickpad, which in my opinion is worse than that you could find in T60/61/400 (I do not fancy its slippy, unstable wobbly surface);
- due to reduced size of the keyboard and clickpad enlargement trackpoints buttons are now closer to the trackpoints joystick, which forces you to lay your hands on a different angle, which in case L450 I find less ergonomic than prior series (this effect may have even bigger scale on 12,5" which as I said has even smaller keyboard);

X220/30 aint perfect either - you can find plenty of posts about its weaknesses - but still I find typing/working on my x220 far more comfortable. And when it comes to the display resolution - I find 14.1" FHD display to dense without scaling, and 12,5" is even worse.

I kind of like chiclet from lenovo i100s (if it wasn't so wobbly) but I bet that any thinkpad resolves that issue. I'm used to chiclet (although in my desktop I have a mechanical). I use a lot my trackpad, truth be said I don't know if I am able to adapt to the trackpoint. How bad is the trackpad in x230? Resizing keyboard isn't great no, I really prefer full keys. Do you know the size of the keys compared to the macbook air ones? If bigger or smaller.

You make interesting arguments specially when x230 is cheaper. I think that between x220 and x230 I would prefer the x230 because of the heating and power usage. I don't care that much about performance, any i5 will be enough for me, I care more about heating and power. Regarding x240 and x250 I still don't know... I would like to try one first but I have no way of doing so.

What upgrades (besides the usual hard drive, ram and wifi) can one do in x230 or x240 / x250? Is there a better cooling system?

Update: I'm finding some x230. Without the IPS panel go around 250-300€ with the IPS panel they easily go to 400€. That seems like a lot for a laptop with 4/5 years.

[brchan]

The textured touchpads on pre xx40 thinkpads feel terrible and wear through very quickly since they use a cheap sticker on top... However, they track reasonably well.

The xx40 and newer trackpads often misclick because of lack of dedicated buttons. It's also easier for your palm to hit the larger trackpad and accidentally move the cursor. Matte finish is nice, though.

That said, I would recommend learning how to use the trackpoint. It takes a few days to get used to, but it will be much more efficient since you don't need to take your hands off the keyboard, and because it can provide constant input.

[Sendoushi]

The textured touchpads on pre xx40 thinkpads feel terrible and wear through very quickly since they use a cheap sticker on top... However, they track reasonably well.

The xx40 and newer trackpads often misclick because of lack of dedicated buttons. It's also easier for your palm to hit the larger trackpad and accidentally move the cursor. Matte finish is nice, though.

That said, I would recommend learning how to use the trackpoint. It takes a few days to get used to, but it will be much more efficient since you don't need to take your hands off the keyboard, and because it can provide constant input.

Can you be as fast? Can you select as precise? If so... Yes I do think I'll go with the trackpoint
Still... Being hard to find a reasonably priced x230.

[brchan]

Can you be as fast? Can you select as precise?

The trackpoint is a tad slower than the touchpad without configuration, but adjusting the thresholds will quickly take care of that.

Trackpoint wins in precision and accuracy in my experience.

[Sendoushi]

Anyone knows if the MSata is Sata II or III? Trying to decide if I should go with a full-size ssd or a msata one. Msata would be less heavy eheh.

What about buying a X230 with TN and apply this http://www.ebay.es/itm/NEW-COMPATIBLE-I ... SwPhdVSeYl ?

[crashnburn]

If i were you I'd rather pass on x240. Here where I live both x240 and x250 are equally priced, but the younger sibling is superior to its predecessor in both cpu and gpu performance. What's more x240 RAM capacity is limited to 8 GB - same as x61 from 2008 while x250 support up to 16 GB in one module - same as x220 and x230 but with 2x 8GB modules. Please consider investing your money in x230 with i7-3520M, 16GB of RAM, IPS display, classic keyboard, mSata SSD and 7mm thick 2,5" HDD in your main drive bay.

Why was the x240 limited to 8G? Technical or physical reasons?

[RealBlackStuff]

The 4th Generation i5/i7 Haswell CPU in the X240 only supports 8GB.
Also, the X240 has only 1 RAM slot.
16GB modules are available, but do NOT work in an X240.
Stupid Intel to design them like that, stupid Lenovo (slimy penny-pinchers that they are) to fall into this trap
They also named the CPU wrong, they said "Ha Swell" but it should have been "Ho $hit".

[jdrou]

The 4th Generation i5/i7 Haswell CPU in the X240 only supports 8GB.
Also, the X240 has only 1 RAM slot.
16GB modules are available, but do NOT work in an X240.

Probably more accurate to say Haswell only supports 8GB modules and the X240 only has one slot for a total limit of 8GB.
4-slot Haswell systems should be able to use 32GB (even if Intel says there's a 16 GB limit). Even 1st generation quad-core i7s could use 4x 8GB modules despite Intel not "supporting" it.

[Sendoushi]

I bought the X230.
The IPS panel has two light spots and because of the display I couldn't update to windows 10 (that is fine).
I don't actually like the trackpoint that much but it is better than lenovo's trackpad.

Regarding the keyboard: Awesome. With the original one at the moment.
I like the way keys act. Home, end, insert could be next to the arrows or even better, the arrows could be on top next to the home end, insert besides that... I don't even want the older keyboard model.

[emeraldgirl08]

@Sendoushi. If you are more comfortable using the trackpad you might want to disable Chiral Scrolling and Pinch-to-Zoom. I find that OOB (or after a clean OS install) that all special trackpad features are turned on which IMO are not optimal on such a small trackpad. I am not in front of my X220 (which has similar trackpad) at the moment but my routine is to go into trackpoint/touchpad settings: enable two-finger scrolling (reverse scrolling), three finger swipe (to move forward and backward through webpages), and tap-to-click (do not like having to physically press down the touchpad; adjust touch pressure so it is not too sensitive). I learned how to use the trackpoint quite well over the years but depending on the situation I will use the trackpad. You might also want to tailor the settings for the trackpoint so that it glides across the screen fast or slow enough for your tastes.

[Sendoushi]

@Sendoushi. If you are more comfortable using the trackpad you might want to disable Chiral Scrolling and Pinch-to-Zoom. I find that OOB (or after a clean OS install) that all special trackpad features are turned on which IMO are not optimal on such a small trackpad. I am not in front of my X220 (which has similar trackpad) at the moment but my routine is to go into trackpoint/touchpad settings: enable two-finger scrolling (reverse scrolling), three finger swipe (to move forward and backward through webpages), and tap-to-click (do not like having to physically press down the touchpad; adjust touch pressure so it is not too sensitive). I learned how to use the trackpoint quite well over the years but depending on the situation I will use the trackpad. You might also want to tailor the settings for the trackpoint so that it glides across the screen fast or slow enough for your tastes.

Thanks for the comment.
I've been messing with those but... Still... I think that I'll just buy an external trackpad for whenever I get tired of using the trackpoint.
Trackpoint gets tedious when you need precision (something to be expected).