X41 Tablet performance issue

[PRGeno]

My new X41 Tablet is the 1866-6SU model with a total 1GB RAM installed.

I found the hard disk performance to be far too slow for my use, but should be usable for ome of my coworkers. The biggest performance problem is with regards to the mouse pointer.

The mouse pointer will occasionally, and very briefly, pause. It usually occurs during moderate hard disk access. It results in what I can best describe as a stuttering mouse movement, which is very disconcerting. It happens when using both the TrackPoint and an external mouse.

I've been using a mouse for 20 years and ThinkPads since the early 90s. I've not seen this type ot problem since Windows 1.0 on an old 8088 computer, when it couldn't manage mouse movement while anything else was running.

Is this something others are seeing or is this unit potentially bad?

I was hoping the X41 Tablet could replace the combination of my aging A31p, and my HP TC1100 tablet. Unfortunately it would be way too big of a compromise in so many aspects. So I gave my new X41 Tablet to a coworker for his use, and will continue to use my A31p as my main computer, and my HP TC1100 as my supplimentary tablet.

[The Counterpart]

Is this something others are seeing or is this unit potentially bad?

You could have a dud. I haven't seen any report regarding the trackpoint problem with either the X41 or X41T.

So I gave my new X41 Tablet to a coworker for his use, and will continue to use my A31p as my main computer, and my HP TC1100 as my supplimentary tablet.

Can I be your friend/coworker also? I wouldn't mind having a generous friend like you, who would give away the X41T and use the TC1100 although you could have returned it or selling it on eBay.

[PRGeno]

So I gave my new X41 Tablet to a coworker for his use, and will continue to use my A31p as my main computer, and my HP TC1100 as my supplimentary tablet.

Can I be your friend/coworker also? I wouldn't mind having a generous friend like you, who would give away the X41T and use the TC1100 although you could have returned it or selling it on eBay.

It was a corporate purchase, not a private one. But my coworker has been leaving me donuts and the occasional danish lately. Bribery for friendship works!

On a more serious note, I still think the TC1100 is the best tablet form factor yet. HP has discontinued it, but I think if they would lose about 1/2 lb and an 1/8 of an inch thickness, put in a slightly speedier processor, and add a fingerprint reader, it would be by far the best tablet available.

I'm a long time ThinkPad guy, but I think a properly refreshed TC1100 line would be a better product line than the X41T for many purposes.

[bhtooefr]

Hmm... try more RAM.

I've seen mouse freezes when the system is thrashing swap. The more RAM you have, the less you'll use swap, and the less chance that you'll thrash.

[redskin]

Hmm... try more RAM.

I've seen mouse freezes when the system is thrashing swap. The more RAM you have, the less you'll use swap, and the less chance that you'll thrash.

yep bhtooefr is right about that. the more ram you got the less your system will thrash, and also the less your system will rely on hard drive. you can buy 1 GB RAM made by Crucial at mwave.com for just $115. Trust me 1.5 GB RAM made a whole lot of difference as comparing to 512 MB ON BOARD RAM that the tablet came with. Installing the memory is very easy. It locates on the back of the tablet. unscrew the lid and pop in the memory and u're done, and your system will run so smoothly.

[PRGeno]

Hmm... try more RAM.

I've seen mouse freezes when the system is thrashing swap. The more RAM you have, the less you'll use swap, and the less chance that you'll thrash.

yep bhtooefr is right about that. the more ram you got the less your system will thrash, and also the less your system will rely on hard drive. you can buy 1 GB RAM made by Crucial at mwave.com for just $115. Trust me 1.5 GB RAM made a whole lot of difference as comparing to 512 MB ON BOARD RAM that the tablet came with. Installing the memory is very easy. It locates on the back of the tablet. unscrew the lid and pop in the memory and u're done, and your system will run so smoothly.

I've already added more RAM. As I stated in the first post, it has been upgraded to 1GB total.

Monitoring RAM usage shows plenty of RAM available, and very little swapping going on.

I can reproduce the problem right after booting up, and before opening any additional programs, other than what is running on a leaned down XP load.

The following is an easy way to demonstrate the problem.

I have the Start menu setting/control panel properties set up to display as a menu instead of the default link setting.

Simply moving the mouse to the Start menu and going to the Control panel will cause the stuttering while the control panel menu gets built the first time it is opened after a reboot. Once the menu is built the first time, it no longer happens when you try it again, as I assume the menu icons are cached.

The problem happens quite often doing lots of other things, again usually when there is any moderate level of disk access.

What I described above is an easy way for others to test and see if they have a similar issue. I'd be interested to hear if anyone else experiences this stuttering by doing what I described above.

Thanks

[bhtooefr]

Ahh...

Basically, Windows puts disk I/O as the Number One task.

So, if there's lots of disk I/O, everything else must wait.

FWIW, I enabled "Expand Control Panel", and interestingly, it didn't do it on here. Then again, this IS Windows 2000...

[PRGeno]

Ahh...

Basically, Windows puts disk I/O as the Number One task.

So, if there's lots of disk I/O, everything else must wait.

FWIW, I enabled "Expand Control Panel", and interestingly, it didn't do it on here. Then again, this IS Windows 2000...

It also looks like you are using an X21, and not an X41T. The X21s I've used never had this problem either. Actually I have never seen this behavior on any ThinkPad I've use before. I've personally owned 8 ThinkPads dating back to the early 90s, and have been the administrator for probably well over 100 ThinkPads over the years. Never have I seen this problem on a ThinkPad.

But this is the first and only X41T I've ever touched, and it has several other quirks I've never seen in a ThinkPad before either.

[bhtooefr]

I've seen it *VERY RARELY* on both this X21, and my old Dell Inspiron 1100 (2.2GHz P4, 384MB RAM, 30GB 4200RPM Hitachi DK23A-30, XP Pro SP2).

I couldn't reproduce it for you, though... It happens a lot when LOTS of programs are running, though.

Theory, here, though. How many GDI and USER objects are being used? You can get this information from the appropriate columns in Task Manager.

Also, keep in mind, you're working with XP TPC. (Although, you said you've got another tablet...)

What are the specs of the HP tablet you've got, compared to your X41T's specs?

FWIW, I already grabbed the 1866-6SU specs, so you don't have to type that

P M 758(1.5GHz)LV, 512MB RAM, 60GB 4200rpm HDD, 12.1in 1024x768 LCD, Intel 900, Intel 802.11abg wireless(MPCI), Bluetooth/Modem(CDC), 1Gb Ethernet(LOM), Secure Chip, Fingerprint Reader, 8 cell Li-Ion batt, WinXP Tablet 2005

Also, advice givers, he said he's upgraded to 1GB RAM.

[PRGeno]

Also, keep in mind, you're working with XP TPC. (Although, you said you've got another tablet...)

What are the specs of the HP tablet you've got, compared to your X41T's specs?

FWIW, I already grabbed the 1866-6SU specs, so you don't have to type that

P M 758(1.5GHz)LV, 512MB RAM, 60GB 4200rpm HDD, 12.1in 1024x768 LCD, Intel 900, Intel 802.11abg wireless(MPCI), Bluetooth/Modem(CDC), 1Gb Ethernet(LOM), Secure Chip, Fingerprint Reader, 8 cell Li-Ion batt, WinXP Tablet 2005

My HP TC1100 specs, formatted similar to the X41T specs you posted, are as follows:

P M 753 (1.2-GHz)ULV,512-MB RAM, 80-GB 5400rpm HDD, 10.4inch 1024 x 768 LCD, NVIDIA GeForce 4 Go 420, Intel 802.11bg, 10/100 802.3, Bluetooth 2, Modem, Two (2) USB 2.0, 6-cell Li-Ion batt,
WinXP Tablet 2005

I've also upgraded the RAM to 1GB in this device too.

The funny thing is, the processor and video are lower spec'd than the X41T, but the hard disk is faster than the X41T. With that true, the TC1100 seems much faster to me in normal use. The TC has a TrackPoint like device on the detachable keyboard, and neither it or an external mouse has the mouse stutter problem I'm seeing with the X41T.

I don't have the X41T with me so I can't look up the current GDI and User loads. But I checked those and other operating statistics during my troubleshooting, and didn't notice anything unusual.

[Miami_Ray]

Out of the 25 or more items which loaded at start up in the msconfig, I have turned off all but about 7 and alot of the performance issues are gone.

You may want to try that.

[bhtooefr]

The hard drive, and IBM's startup apps are your problem, it sounds like.

Obviously, there's no fixing that hard drive problem, due to IBM's use of 1.8" HDDs...

As for the startup apps, figure out what you use, and uninstall what you don't...

[ToeMas]

Have you tried patching the memory leak, which I know has caused problems with mouse pointing and pen?

Information in the form of a Knowledge Base article is posted here:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.as ... -US;895953

The download and additional information is available here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... laylang=en

[PRGeno]

I've optimized the start up load pretty well, cutting down on everything I could. I've gone so far as to cut it down to the bare minimum XP needs to run. I've also already installed the TIP memory leak patch.

Still stuttering.

Mind you this is not happening constantly, but still quite frequently, typically when the system is busy or with heavy HD access.

This system has frankly been the worst ThinkPad experience I've ever had (and as I stated earlier, I've used lots of ThinkPads over the years).

This mouse stuttering problem is a serious issue, but there are lots of other little irritating things with this unit. Like screen rotation confusion. It never seems to auto rotate to the correct orientation, whether switching to slate or notebook mode. And the rotation takes forever to complete.

One of the most serious and irritating problem is the slowest hard disk performance of any modern system I have ever used. The system never seems to catch up while I'm trying to use it in any moderate fashion.

But still nothing is more irritating than the mouse not moving smoothly to the intended destination, and then after the pause, jumping to the extreme in the direction last pointed.

This really is disappointing, and is not acceptable for a system of this caliper. My old technology (by tablet standards) TC1100 is a far better performer and smoother operator. There is no doubt I'm sticking with my A31p and TC1100 combination, but I hate to leave my coworker on his own with this X41T disappointment.

[brainpicker]

I stopped for a drink and decided to check in to see how many problems were posted because of the batch of X41T's that were being released from customs and delivered today. PRGeno if you got "a dud" as one poster claimed then I got that same dud. Before leaving on my trip earlier I got to play with my X41T delivered today and it is as bad as you say. You absolutely can't use the pointer for several minutes after a restart! Start or use a medium-sized or slight disk intensive program and the result is the same. It's the 1st non-multitasking computer I've owned since a 286. I've haven't seen anything like this on a computer for 20-years! I tried everything and it still happens. I would increase the RAM as a few have suggested but with the screen issues I have too (see my post elsewhere) I'm not going to bother spending $125 to TRY a fix. This is definitely a "not ready for prime time" product. They pushed the Tablet out way too fast so that they might have decent supply by Christmas and it shows. The screen is horrible and fragile as hell. Touch the edge and the whole side turn white!!! The hard drive is a joke, and this pointer issue makes it totally unusable. The Tablet release make the fan noise and heat issues of the T43p look tame in comparison. At least you can USE a T43p even if only in a cold, noisey room. I don't have a co-worker I hate enough to give them my Tablet. Besides, I purchased it on my own (not corporate). I wouldn't even sell this on ebay. It's going back and you know what?... I DON'T want a replacement. I'd try another around this time next year if they make enough changes, and if Len-Oh-No! is even in business. One more release like this and they are toast. Me, I'll be looking for a few nice pre-Len-Oh-No! X40's as soon as I get home in about ten days.

Yak

[The Counterpart]

Wow, you really got a dud. A lot of peole are receiving the Bundles today and so far you have been the chosen one. FWIW, I have the same Bundle model as yours (it was shipped about a month ago) and it is solid. I got 1.5GB of RAM installed and have no trackpoint or screen flex issue. There is no dead pixel or leakage either.

[artuero]

My X41T from the bundle appears to be working great as well. No trackpoint, pixel, screen or pointer issues. So I would return it.

[pphilipko]

My X41T from the bundle appears to be working great as well. No trackpoint, pixel, screen or pointer issues. So I would return it.

You would?

[bhtooefr]

He's saying that if he was PRGeno, he would return it, as his doesn't have any of those problems.

[artuero]

What bhtooefr said, hehe.

[PRGeno]

IBM/Lenovo support's response to this serious problem is to run a restore of the original OS load. The support tech was very nice and tried to be helpful, but I told hinm that was not an acceptable solution.

A system restore will blow away the carefully crafted installation of all our additional software. I suggested he send me another hard disk with their standard OS load already installed and tested on another machine. That way we would be starting from an IBM tested and known good load.

If the problem goes away with this load, I would then consider reinstalling everything from scratch (the problem was evident before we installed everything - and was definitely our mistake for doing so before fixing this problem). If the problem is not fixed with their HD, then obviously the system has a hardware problem.

Even when this is determined, I can confidently say, I will not consider the purchase of any more of this generation of X41T units for my company. This is not the ThinkPad experience I have come to expect over the many years I have been purchasing ThinkPads.

Understand, I'm not complaining about having a problem or the support I have received, which has been quite good. I'm talking about the unit itself.

The design team went too far with their compomises for size, weight and battery life, at the expense of performance. The machine is simply too slow to be useful for anything more than basic use, and it just didn't have to be that way.

[bhtooefr]

However, it sounds like a problem not with the X41T overall, but rather with your specific unit.

If the reload fixes it, it's even more obvious that it's not a problem with the X41T overall.

If your X41T's performance is indicative of the performance of all laptops with those specs, we'd be seeing lots of people saying that their X40s and X41s were dog slow.

Heck, we'd see a lot of people saying that their old trusty 600s, 240s, and 570s running XP are dog slow...

[PRGeno]

However, it sounds like a problem not with the X41T overall, but rather with your specific unit.

If the reload fixes it, it's even more obvious that it's not a problem with the X41T overall.

If your X41T's performance is indicative of the performance of all laptops with those specs, we'd be seeing lots of people saying that their X40s and X41s were dog slow.

Heck, we'd see a lot of people saying that their old trusty 600s, 240s, and 570s running XP are dog slow...

I'll let you know after the drive shows up (they estimated it will take 5 days). The recovery CDs showed up today (all 7 of 7 of them?).

I have X2x, X3x, X4x units operating here along with T, R, and my personal all time favorite, A series units. Nothing performs as poorly as my sole X41T, even though a few of those units also have a 4200 RPM drive. There are other performance sapping compromises made in the X41T, along with the HD. But the most performance problems we've seen have been drive related (simply time your boot up, even after disabling the myriad of preloaded start up stuff - it's undeniably slow compared to other modern systems).

There is obviously something wrong with this specific machine that may not be indicative of all X41Ts. But for my money, the X41T makes too many performance compromises in it's current incarnation, which frankly don't seem necessary.

By the way, I have a few 600s, 570s, and a whole bunch of other old Thinkpads still floating around (some even still work). I'm not saying it can't be done, because I've done it too, but these old units are too slow to run W2K/XP effectively.

[bhtooefr]

OK, I see your point - you want an X32T

[PRGeno]

OK, I see your point - you want an X32T

The X32 would be a great platform to turn into a tablet. Actually just a few little changes might fix the X41T.

But I'm sticking with my A31p until something comes close to being able to replace it. Yes it's (very) big and heavy, but still after 3 years there isn't a better full feature notebook available. And I'll keep my HP TC1100 around for tablet use, which is still secondary to my need for performance and screen real estate.

I'll eventually give up the A31p's 3 spindles and the huge screen (I'll have a tough time giving up the 1600x1200 resolution though), when I can get a tablet enabled machine with bigger, faster hard drives, and a higher resolution screen (1400x1050 would work), in a form factor close to the X41T (or at least the X32).

The X41T is intriguing, but doesn't quite make the grade yet, for my own personal use. Of course after evaluating 6 currently available tablet PCs, I still haven't found a tablet enabled machine (slate or convertible) that does make the grade. The X41T may be close, but it just not there yet. Maybe when Vista arrives, the machine makers will figure it all out.

[bhtooefr]

1400x1050?

Have you looked at the Toshiba Portege M200?

It's the tablet that's making everybody complain to IBM about the lack of an SXGA+ X series...

[PRGeno]

1400x1050?

Have you looked at the Toshiba Portege M200?

It's the tablet that's making everybody complain to IBM about the lack of an SXGA+ X series...

I have considered bringing in the M200 next, but I think it's too big & heavy.

I have two applications. One is a manufacturing shop floor application that needs a tablet, and the other is for my own personal general purpose do everything machine.

I've evaluated, or at least held and operated, the Motion 1600 & 800, the HP TC1100 & TC4200, the Sony U71, and of course the X41T. I should note, I've purchased only the X41T and the TC1100, (and the Sony U71 just because it is so cool, if not real world functional) thus I've spent the most time with these units).

I think the Motion 800 is the closest to meeting the requirements for my shop floor app, but poor battery life, the extreme heat, and the 800x600 screen are show stoppers (the shop floor software needs 1024x768). The Motion 1600 is just too big for the shop floor app, and not good enough as a notebook for my personal use.

The Sony was an interesting device for the shop floor application, but it's screen is too small, and too low of a resolution, and the unit is too thick and cumbersome to handle. It's probably going to become my home & theater remote control PC.

The X41T was my choice as my personal do everything unit, but it's simply too slow and quirky in several ways. I thought maybe the TC4200 could work, but I didn't really connect with it. I didn't have very much time to work with that unit, and I don't have any one specific dislike, but overall it just didn't excite me.

So I'm left with nothing to solve the shop floor requirement. My personal machine is still my A31p as my primary machine, with the TC1100 for tablet use, which I have sync data with the A31p. Not the ideal solution, but the ideal solution doesn't seem to exist in a single device today.

My ideal device would be an advanced version of the TC1100. I'd like a bit more power, but the form factor of at least the slate half is great. Add 1400x1050 screen resolution, and a finger print reader to the screen half, while making it just slightly thinner and lighter would make it perfect.

Then beef up the keyboard half with additional notebook/desktop functions, while keeping it detachable. A better touch typing feel keyboard (imagine a ThinkPad keyboard with the better TrackPoint pointer and center mouse button like on all ThinkPads). Add an optical drive & USB ports, to the keyboard half, while keeping the swivel/detaching mechanism, but stabilizing it to cut down on the shaking while typing. It wouldn't be a problem that the keyboard half would need to become larger to accommodate the better keyboard, drive, and electronics, since it can always be detached. Even the current TC1100 docking station is the best concept out there and could stay as it is.

I'm shocked HP has discontinued the TC1100 line as it still seems to be the best form factor, slate/notebook combination. HP had it right by putting all the electronics in the screen half of a convertible. That allowed them to make the keyboard detachable, working in either full notebook mode, or lighten the load and operate in slate mode. Truely brilliant!! A great concept, although not quite perfected in it's current form. But the flaws are no reason to lose the vision and kill the line.

An updated "TC1200" would solve both my shop floor and personal application needs. A better performing X41T might solve my personal application, and may still do so, but it still wouldn't fit the shop floor application, where a small slate would work much better.

The M200 may come in next, but I don't expect it to be quite right either. This market is still very young. I'm sure someone will step forward and get it right sooner or later. I'm dreaming of an IBM/Lenovo "TC1200" killer.

[beq]

PRGeno, I've been meaning to post in your thread since getting my X41T earlier this month. I have the similar 1866-6TU model and also have 1GB RAM installed. For comparison I still have my older X40 notebook, which uses a 40GB Hitachi 1.8" hard drive (whereas my new X41T has a newer 60GB Hitachi 1.8" hard drive).

I'm experiencing the same mouse pointer stuttering problem with my X41T, exactly in the same situations that you mentioned! This symptom certainly has NOT occurred in all the time I've used my old X40. If I hadn't been galvanized by reading your thread though, I would've just assumed that the pointer stuttering is just an inevitable side effect of the added tablet functionality on the X41T.

I would've guessed that perhaps the digitizer technology and the Tablet Edition OS (and the extra "virtualization" of the display that lets you rotate its orientation at anytime) adds some realtime overhead that bogs down the system from time to time?

I do wonder though why no other X41T owners have posted here about noticing the same problem, since it is quite noticeable. Does that mean others do not experience this, and that our particular units are faulty? On an unrelated subject, my X41T also has an annoying fan whirring noise when moved or tilted...

P.S. If need be, I do have another Hitachi 60GB 1.8" ATA hard drive that I've been using in a USB enclosure, which I suppose I can try to swap into the X41T (after copying the drive image to it) for testing...

[beq]

I'm really curious if any other X41 Tablet owners also notice the occasional mouse pointer stuttering problem and it's not just isolated to PRGeno and myself. Just so I can know whether to follow up with IBM support/repair/exchange, or just live with it...

[Yotam]

I'm really curious if any other X41 Tablet owners also notice the occasional mouse pointer stuttering problem and it's not just isolated to PRGeno and myself. Just so I can know whether to follow up with IBM support/repair/exchange, or just live with it...

I have this "problem" too. I don't mind it. It happens very occasionally, only when disk is working hard or there is not enough memory (or both). I think upgrading the memory (which I didn't do yet, waiting for some offers from some resellers here) will improve this to be a very minor problem.

I knew what I'm going to. 4200 HDD is SLOW. I was prepared for this.

So live with it. I think that the mouse pointer problem is not the worst problem caused by the HDD.