2379-DJU (T41) vs. 2378-FVU (T42)?

[andyk]

Please help me decide!

Unless IBM puts more models up, I will buy one of the two within a month. Both are 14" SXGA+ and 40HS. 256 MB is enough. Prices are about the same through several of the discount stores.


2379-DJU has 3 year warranty

- Banias 1.6 consumes 24.5W according to http://processorfinder.intel.com/script ... ?CHRID=942

- Radeon 9000 is 9X performance according to http://www.ati.com/products/brochures/M ... t_Line.pdf

- 802.11b

- Uses 13N5442 Fan assembly (long) which is DIFFERENT from T41 2379-DKU. 2379-DKU uses part 91P8393 Fan assembly (short). This is from HMM 13n6243


2378-FVU has 1 year warranty, but adds the following:

- Dothan 1.7 consumes 21.0W, which is 3.5W less than Banias 1.6.

- Radeon 9600 is 23X performance

- 802.11b/g

- Uses 13R2657 Fan assembly (long) M10 like T41p 2373-GGU 2373-GEU


If I can easily add 3 year depot warranty to 2378-FVU like I can with the 1 year warranty T41 models, I'd be glad to pay about $110 more for (2378-FVU + 3 year depot) because of the extra features. But even with explanation from James, it is extremely confusing.

Can I say that I am a "professional" student? More importantly, the following link isn't even listing T42! When I add 3 year depot to a 1 year warranty T41 model, I don't see the same “for business, professional, or trade" requirement, even though I think I am buying the same thing (30L9192)?

http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/store ... 3&x=6&y=12


If I cannot fully understand/resolve the warranty issue, I'd have to go with the 2379-DJU. It's kind of disappointing because it's been at the same price ever since the beginning of the year!

How does the 13N5442 Fan assembly compare with 13R2657 as they are both "long"? I assume the "fan throb" problem is limited to the "short" 91P8393?


Any other difference between 14.1" SXGA+ T41 and T42 models that I should consider?

Thank you very much for helping me make the most informed decision!

[sswany]

You are looking at the exact same models that I was. My biggest concern is the warranty also. If I can add a 3yr to the FVU then I'll do it, but otherwise I'm interested in the T41. I'm very intersted to see if IBM allows the warranty upgrades.

[CantStopNow]

Let me point out that the power consumption numbers you listed are for when the processor is running full out. The better numbers to look at are when the processor is running in the low-power battery mode at 600 MHz:

Banias: 6W (1.7W in sleep)
Dothan: 7.5W (3.2W in sleep)

If you look at the battery life numbers for the T42's, you'll see that they have been revised down from 4.4 hrs to 4.0 hrs. The extra 1.5 W accounts for this.

Though it still remains unclear to me whether in practice Dothan really does reduce battery life or not...

[andyk]

Thanks, it would make getting a T41 more comforting. This is interesting so I decided to look into the Datasheets:

http://www.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/302189.htm
http://www.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/252612.htm

I don't know if I am reading them correctly, in the last section:

Banias 7W max in Auto Halt/Sleep.

Dothan 10.9/10.5W max at HFM (Highest Frequency mode) in Auto Halt/Sleep.

Dothan 3.3W/3.2W max at LFM (Lowest Frequency mode) in Auto Halt/Sleep.

I think the 3.2W figure matches up. Not sure how the rest are derived due to SpeedStep.


Anyway, Tomshardware actually says Dothan lasts longer:

http://www4.tomshardware.com/mobile/200 ... an-12.html

In tabook, for the T42 Express models, I do see 4.0 to 5.0 hour with 6 cell battery. Whereas the T41 Express models are 4.4 to 4.7 hour. I wonder if the difference is primarily because some T42 Express models use 15" screen?


Another thing could be Radeon 9600 vs 9000. This page is listing M10 as higher than M9, however Radeon 9600 has "POWERPLAY 4.0" whereas Radeon 9000 has "POWERPLAY 3.0":

http://www.tpuser.idv.tw/articles/x40-test-6.htm


I have to confess that I have started to look into Dell again. The Dell options are so easy to navigate with so many options available. For example, SXGA+ simply costs $80 more and 40HS simply costs $50 more!

I hope IBM isn't make a major mistake with the 15" push -- there is 2378-DWU/2379-DWU AND 2378-DXU/2379-DXU with the 3 year option costing only $85 more. I wonder if 15" is like "nice guy". People *say* they want it. But we already have one fellow member returning a 15" model.

Why can't there be a 2379-FVU? Anyone from IBM reading this?


I am still totally confused! I just want the most reliable machine with SXGA+, 40HS, and 3 year warranty at the lowest price!

[tyipengr]

I had been checking out the 2379-DJU for the past 4 months. The only thing that kept me from actually whipping out my credit card and buying it was the graphics chip. 32MB Radeon 9000 is just a tad too weak for now even, not to mention for the next 2-3 years so for me this model is totally out of the question although I love almost everything else about it.

Since the T42s popped out I've been trying to decide between the 2378/2379-DXU and the 2378-FVU. After hearing the gripes about the 15-inch Flexview's ghosting and my initial worries about the additional size and weight I will be going for the 2378-FVU.

The 64MB Radeon 9600 graphics is enough for the near future I think, if the 40GB 5400RPM HD gets slow I'll swap it out for a 7200RPM model. A 512MB SODIMM will be added almost immediately.

For now I think the 2379-DJU is not that great of a buy with the 2378-FVU available for almost the same price if not less. Unlike the warranty, the CPU and Graphics are not an easy upgrade (if even possible).

[Nabeel]

I got my FVU today, I like it, but I'm RMAing it because there's a stuck pixel :-\

[tyipengr]

You can RMA w/ IBM for just one (1) stuck pixel? Holy cow. Just when I thought IBM couldn't rock anymore than it already does.

I went though the Thinkpad HMM today and was impressed. There is still a computer company out there that actually gives instructions to owners to repair their own computers. I haven't seen that in years.

[RaysMD]

Well, if anyone has a 14" T42p then let's compare battery times. I just got my T41p 2373GGU today. Opened the box at 4:30pm. I have been using it intensively since then. i.e., de-installing programs, making backup images, etc. All of this is hard drive intensive. I just had to plug it into the AC outlet at 9:15. So that's close to 5 hrs of intensive hard drive and optical drive usage. Screen was at maximal brightness (including the BIOS brightness adj.).

I'm surprised that the times were revised downward from 4.4 to 4.0 hours for Dothan (T42).

-MM

[cynic]

In tabook, for the T42 Express models, I do see 4.0 to 5.0 hour with 6 cell battery. Whereas the T41 Express models are 4.4 to 4.7 hour. I wonder if the difference is primarily because some T42 Express models use 15" screen?

The screen will make a larger difference than the processor in a comparison like this.. so most definitely this is caused by using a 15" in the comparison.

[Nabeel]

You can RMA w/ IBM for just one (1) stuck pixel? Holy cow. Just when I thought IBM couldn't rock anymore than it already does.

I went though the Thinkpad HMM today and was impressed. There is still a computer company out there that actually gives instructions to owners to repair their own computers. I haven't seen that in years.

It's actually eight, but I'm going to say I don't want it or whatever just to get it returned, and then I'll order another one.

[andyk]

Thanks to all the replies. OK, forget Dell. I think I will buy a 2378FVU when the warranty upgrade option is "added shortly":

From: "DIA E-mail" <cscdia@ca.ibm.com>
Subject: IBM's Reply ...
Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 09:14:43 -0400

Dear Andy,

Thank you for contacting IBM.

We are in receipt of your inquiries regarding the purchase of a ThinkPad
T42, model number 2378FVU with a 3 year depot repair warranty upgrade.

Please note, the ThinkPad model 2378FVU is listed on our Web site:

http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/store ... logId=-840

Normally the warranty upgrade options are listed when you select
"Customize and Buy". But this ThinkPad model is new and the warranty
upgrade options have not yet been added to our Web site. They will
be added shortly. You may obtain a quotation for the ThinkPad including
the warranty upgrade by speaking to a sales representative.

Although "ThinkPad T42" is not explicitly stated on the Web page we
provided below, this is the correct Web page to purchase a warranty
upgrade for a ThinkPad T42 if you already own the machine. If you
are just purchasing one, you can upgrade the warranty at the time of
purchase.

A warranty upgrade for a ThinkPad does not have to be selected at
the time of purchase. A warranty extension may be purchased any time
before the expiry of the standard warranty.

The machine does not have to be used for business purposes in order to
qualify for a warranty upgrade, but there are certain states in which
warranty upgrades are not available. A sales representative can provide
you with more information.

It takes approximately 7 to 10 business days for a warranty upgrade to
be reflected in our records but is in effect as soon as you are charged
for the upgrade.

To contact a sales representative and obtain a quotation, please contact
1-877-999-7115, followed by option 4 on the voice response unit.

Their hours of operation are from Monday to Friday, 8:30 a.m. to 9:15 p.m.
EST, Saturday, 9:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. EST and Sunday, 10:00 a.m. to 6:30
p.m.
EST.

Thank you for visiting our site and contacting IBM.

Regards,

Commerce Support Center
Services & Support, ibm.com Centers, Americas
105 Moatfield Drive, North York, Ontario, Canada M3B 3R1
Tel: (877) 999-7115, option 2
Fax: (877) 411-1329
e-mail: cscdia@ca.ibm.com
IBM Customer Web site: http://www.ibm.com

---

To: DIA E-mail/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
Subject: T42 warranty upgrade?
Date: 05/27/2004 12:31 PM

To Whom It May Concern:

I am interested in buying 2378FVU + 3 year depot warranty.
Unlike T41 models, I am unable to add 3 year warranty in my
order. I was given the following link:

http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/store ... 3&x=6&y=12


HOWEVER, T42 is NOT even listed on that web page!

1. Assuming T42 qualifies for warranty service upgrades, does
being a graduate student qualify the "used for business,
professional, or trade, rather than personal, family, or
household purposes" requirement?

2. Will IBM add the warranty service upgrade back to the
"Services, Support and Training" section when I customize this
machine?

3. Even better, will IBM offer a 2379FVU model? For example,
there is both 2379DXU and 2378DXU, and 2379DXU is only $85 more!

4. Would I be able to buy just 2378FVU for now, THEN after 10
months, still buy 3 year depot warranty?

Thank you very much for your attention to this matter. I really
want to buy IBM, and I really do NOT want to buy Dell even though
Dell's warranty options are much easier to navigate.

Sincerely,

It seems I can also NOT get the warranty upgrade right away, THEN pay for it just before 1 year is up. I can invest the money elsewhere for one year. But it doesn't appear I would then get the 15% discount (through one of the discount stores if I buy it right away when I place the order). Am I sure I will get (100 / 85 - 1) = 17% yearly return on my own...

[sswany]

I didn't know you didn't have to buy it now. I'll just get the T42 and worry about the warranty later. The small differences in the power ratings are not a big enough deal to warrant not getting the better machine. If I have to plug it into a wall after 4:45 rather than 5:15, then so be it. It's still better than the 0:30 I get on a 3 yr old Dell with dual batteries.

[tyipengr]

I've noticed the run times of old laptops. Do you think it still takes the same amount of charging (electricity) to power up the weak batteries? If so that is a mssive waste of electricity.

I personally have an old Dell that constantly charged itself 24-7 (after 1.5 years) I just yanked the battery out so it would stop doing that, I don't like waste. It also couldn't run for more than 15 minutes on the battery. Lousy POS =P~

[dclee012]

fyi,
you don't need a reason to return the tp to ibm. so long as it's within 30 days.

the pixel rule is different for every size/resolution. the more pixels there are, the more that have to be broken/stuck to get serviced. it's somewhere on the ibm website...

[XCoalMiner]

I see where the difference in the wireless architecture on these two models, (if I read things correctly), is:

2378FVU has a miniPCI wireless card, whereas 2379DJU has the wireless functionality integrated into the chipset/circut board (Centrino). Will this account for any differences in power consumption/battery life?

I also see where 2378FVU has wireles B and G, but 2379DJU has only B.

[cynic]

Centrino doesn't mean that it is wired into the chip/circuit board. It is also a miniPCI card.

Centrino just means you use 3 Intel parts:
1) Pentium M processor
2) 855 chipset
3) Intel miniPCI wireless card (currently only B or B/G standards available)

It was Intel's way of spreading marketing money to companies. If you used all three parts, then Intel would give you some marketing money and you could use the Centrino logo. If you used only 2 (the chipset and processor) you could only brand it a Pentium M and didn't get marketing money. Most companies did some of both (especially since Intel's wireless cards were so behind everyone else in features like "a" or "g" support or companies like IBM needed to offer Cisco's security protocols only offered on Cisco cards.)

Honestly, the Intel wireless miniPCI cards seem to have less compatibility with wireless basestations (more so in the first version than the recent 2200BG card) The Atheros chipset IBM uses in their wireless card is considered one of the best. I think the power consumption is about the same (I have a friend with the Intel wireless in a T series), but connectivity of my IBM/Philips/Atheros card has always been better.

[andyk]

Both are mini-PCI.

Beware that these mini-PCI cards have to be "from IBM". Otherwise they wouldn't work in a Thinkpad. IBM is marking these cards up by at least 100% from Intel's price...

This link has link to a PowerPoint slide (presumably by Intel) that compares Intel's 802.11.g (in red) with competitors' (in grey). It's on page 9.

http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/ind ... &roomID=11

[XCoalMiner]

Beware that these mini-PCI cards have to be "from IBM". Otherwise they wouldn't work in a Thinkpad. IBM is marking these cards up by at least 100% from Intel's price...

When you say these mini-PCi cards must be from IBM, I believe you are referring to what is described in detail here, about BIOS checking for secret PCI-ID's on bootup, ... I think.

[andyk]

Nice find, XCoalMiner.

I remember reading that 2200BG costs $25 in quantities of 10,000 from Intel (sorry cannot find the link just now).

CDW is selling it for $34.

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/defaul ... edc=592320

Would be something interesting to try...

[andyk]

CantStopNow is right about Banias using less power than Dothan in battery mode. I finally stumbled across this link:

http://support.intel.com/support/proces ... 007981.htm

I like to verify things