Ready, set, go! Atheros a/b/g/N in my T60p...Please help!

[Crunch]

Alright, I did some research and here's the jist. Apparently, only CTO (Custom To Order) models get the add'l N wire. I opened mine up, and could find no cable near the card. At any rate, I am ready to do this now.

Is it really true that the Atheros cards are simply "better", and have, perhaps, a wider range? I could use a slightly better range, N, or no N. I just installed the Atheros card, and it was quickly found by Vista, but silly me forgot to put the appropriate drivers there beforehand. So back in went the Intel 3945ABG.

I'm going to download the x64 drivers for the Atheros a/b/g/n card now and re-attempt. It takes 5 minutes. All I have to do is remove the palm rest, fingerprint cable, as well as the keyboard, and detach its cable that connects it to the motherboard.

Second question: As someone previously mentioned, I could possibly use a cable that doesn't necessitate going behind the screen, which was great news. There are TWO cables that connect the WWAN card to its antenna on the right side of the screen. I don't use it, as I said before, so would I be taking a risk other than that it would simply not work, by using one of the WWAN antennas coming from the WWAN antenna and put it where the "N antenna" goes?? Also, which of the two cable would I use (one is blue, one red), or does it even matter? Finally, is there any way that I can mess ANYTHING up by attempting this? Anything, such as shorting anything out?

Thanks for any replies. I am so ready!!! lol...At least, so far I know that the card works, and later tonight, I'll reattempt just connecting the non-N cables to see if there is any improvement for G alone. I'd love to hear about my idea about using the one of the WWAN antennas as the N antenna, so to speak!???

As much as I want to do this, under no circumstances do I want to take the risk of screwing up my Thinkpad in any way.

Thanks all!!!!!!!

[sjthinkpader]

The WLAN antennae are made for 2.4Ghz and WWAN antennae are made for 2.1Ghz. So using WWAN antenna may work but not optimal.

Here is my experience with installing a 11n card in T60.

The two existing WLAN antennae are placed at top right vertical edge and top left horizontal edge. I added the 3rd antenna at the left vertical about mid-way to the top. The antenna is a Foxconn antenna and pretty small in size. So I removed the LCD front bezel but not the LCD from the housing. The Foxconn antenna lead is just about he right length and it went under the rubber wire holders and in the spiral holder near the hinge, looped around the CPU fan once. then under the metal clip with the other two leads.

The first Atheros card worked but didn't respond to the Hotkey F5 commands and the AC commands. I had to turn it on and off using the slide switch. I am not sure whether is was only a defective card or software issue. So it was returned to the vendor. When it worked, it made a 300Mb connection and was very fast.

The 2nd intel card was for a T61 and rejected by the T60 BIOS so I am still looking for a working card.

This message is typed on a A31 over a 270Mb 11n link. The fastest thru-put observed was about 14Mb primarily limited by the 16Mb thru-put of my NAS and the 3Mb DSL.

[SHoTTa35]

you do know about Zender's BIOS hack that will remove the BIOS hack so you can use the Intel 802.11n card. I'm using that and it works great just the same.

[Crunch]

Actually, the BIOS hack is NOT necessary. Both the Atheros a/b/g, as well as the Atheros a/b/g/n are on the BIOS Whitelist! Well, now I'm living proof.

I just installed the Atheros card after getting the Vista x64 driver installed, and without attaching anything to the N part of it yet, and it is...GULP!!!!....BLAZINGLY FAST!! This thing beats the HELL out of the Intel 3945ABG card. And I'm only using it with 802.11g so far!!!!

This is sick. My network says EXCELLENT now, instead going between Fair, Poor, etc. and..well, I'm just blown a-WAY!!

Now to the N part LOL...as it IS the a/b/g/N card. The gray cable went to the right place, as did the black wire! The third (middle) cable is what I need now, and, well, an N-capable router!

The WWAN card has one red, and one blue, so I don't know which to use there, and I should use WWAN at all.

All I know is that thing is FLYING HIGH now. MUCH more range apparently, as the Intel card was also transmitting at tremendous speeds when I went closer to the router, but now, even in the room I'm in, which is about as far as I can physically be away from the router! What should I do to get wireless-N...

[Crunch]

Update: There are THREE (as opposed to TWO on the Intel 3945ABG card) little connectors on top of the card.

The left one says TR1, the middle one says R0, and the right one TR2. TR1 has the grey cable, and TR2 the black one, which is how it's supposed to be according to Lenovo online documentation. R0 wants a white cable on Thinkpads where the card and wireless-N is installed by default, per the same documentation. I don't have a white cable. The WWAN card has one blue, and one red cable. Obviously I can use only one or the other. Hmm...Any ideas??

Thanks guys!

[bill bolton]

My network says EXCELLENT now

How is your Bluetooth performance?

Cheers,

Bill B.

[sjthinkpader]

Update: There are THREE (as opposed to TWO on the Intel 3945ABG card) little connectors on top of the card.

The left one says TR1, the middle one says R0, and the right one TR2. TR1 has the grey cable, and TR2 the black one, which is how it's supposed to be according to Lenovo online documentation. R0 wants a white cable on Thinkpads where the card and wireless-N is installed by default, per the same documentation. I don't have a white cable. The WWAN card has one blue, and one red cable. Obviously I can use only one or the other. Hmm...Any ideas??

Thanks guys!

R0, TR1, TR2 is a 2T3R card (2 transmit 3 receive). This gives you 270/300Mb download and slower upload.

[Radioguy]

Actually, the BIOS hack is NOT necessary. Both the Atheros a/b/g, as well as the Atheros a/b/g/n are on the BIOS Whitelist! Well, now I'm living proof.

I just installed the Atheros card after getting the Vista x64 driver installed, and without attaching anything to the N part of it yet, and it is...GULP!!!!....BLAZINGLY FAST!! This thing beats the HELL out of the Intel 3945ABG card. And I'm only using it with 802.11g so far!!!!

This is sick. My network says EXCELLENT now, instead going between Fair, Poor, etc. and..well, I'm just blown a-WAY!!

Now to the N part LOL...as it IS the a/b/g/N card. The gray cable went to the right place, as did the black wire! The third (middle) cable is what I need now, and, well, an N-capable router!

The WWAN card has one red, and one blue, so I don't know which to use there, and I should use WWAN at all.

All I know is that thing is FLYING HIGH now. MUCH more range apparently, as the Intel card was also transmitting at tremendous speeds when I went closer to the router, but now, even in the room I'm in, which is about as far as I can physically be away from the router! What should I do to get wireless-N...

That post is really tempting. Yet, while I think Intel has made some generic statements about their draft-N chipsets meeting final spec with firmware and/or software updates, I'm not sure about Atheros doing the same for the AR5008. Also, you should know that the Lenovo ARBXB72-L version of the card is in the whitelist because (IIRC) it has a customized firmware. The same ARBXB72 card is available elsewhere (It's in some MacBooks) for less, but would produce an error when installed.

Bill also hinted at a possible issue with Bluetooth on this chipset. I would also love to know if you have any issues there. If not, then perhaps this is a worthy upgrade.

[Crunch]

Alright, this is NOT an Intel card, but rather a card manufactured by Atheros. Intel cards are seemingly nowhere near as good. Whatever...I would like to know if I need a DUAL BAND router, or SINGLE BAND one? I'm going to attach the WWAN cable as soon as someone tells me that's cool to do, and that it will benefit my speed.

sjthinkpader: WOW...270/300Mbps??? Sign up me, brother. That's HOT. You said it would only work at 2.1GHz?? Doesn't the card dictate how the wire will function? I guess I'll take the higher cable on the WWAN antenna!???

bill bolton: BT works excellent. And what exactly does that have to do with this???

As for a router...Linksys is what has always worked for me, and it's Cisco, so that means something. The 600N is the DUAL band one, and there are several SINGLE (2.4GHz) ones (300N, 310N, 330N, 350N) ones available also, for about half the cost. What should I get considering this setup?? When everything is up and running, and it will be, I'll write a report, so many of you can use the collaborative effort going on here.

Peace!

[sjthinkpader]

...

sjthinkpader: WOW...270/300Mbps??? Sign up me, brother. That's HOT. You said it would only work at 2.1GHz?? Doesn't the card dictate how the wire will function? I guess I'll take the higher cable on the WWAN antenna!???
...

The antenna is optimized for their working frequencies. Higher the frequency, shorter the effective length of the antenna.

How is your Bluetooth performance?
...

BT actually work at 2.5Ghz but it is very close to the 2.4Ghz WiFi. The WiFi card output amplifier may emit spurious signal in side band also. This is governed by FCC rules how much side band emission can be. This is called the FCC mask and looks like an upside down flower pot. Other similar rules apply in Europe and other parts of the world.

I watched both the 802.11n and BT working at the same time on my A31 and it seems to be ok. There were reports the Atheros 11n card in T60 interfere with BT. I only got thru put of around 14Mb mainly due to NAS and DSL bandwidth limitations.

[SHoTTa35]

well Bill was talking about the fact that he had a Atheros and it killed his BT so that's why he asked.

As for the Linksys stuff is pretty good. I have one now (WRT350N) and it works great but you will you will ONLY get 130Mbps max speeds. The IEEE Draft 2.0 Specs states that you have to be running in the 5Ghz freqency to get full speeds.

So with that said, get the 600N if you can afford it or get one of those mentioned for now and upgrade later.

I'm having a few issues with my N router but hey... that's what you get when you are first in the line of testers

[sjthinkpader]

well Bill was talking about the fact that he had a Atheros and it killed his BT so that's why he asked.
...

I want to try it in my T60 also but so far no working 11n card for me yet.

..As for the Linksys stuff is pretty good. I have one now (WRT350N) and it works great but you will you will ONLY get 130Mbps max speeds. The IEEE Draft 2.0 Specs states that you have to be running in the 5Ghz freqency to get full speeds.
...

This Linksys WRT350N was reported to use a Marvell CPU and Atheros AR5008 radio. So actually best match with the Lenovo/Atheros 11n card.

I am using a Airlink101 300N with a Ralink chipset and my A31 is using a Ralink based miniPCI card so also best matched. The brief test I did with the Atheros card in T60 show it works with this Airlink101 300N also.

[SHoTTa35]

you saw me reply to your other thread about Zender's hack? I got the Lenovo Intel AGN ($40 on ebay) or buying the Lenovo Atheros one (no hack needed and it's like $38 in the marketplace also i saw once)

You can get the generic Intel (or Dell OEM) ones but then you'd need the T60 A Version hack. If you use the Lenovo ones get the T60 Ver B hack (for Lenovo Intel one)

[bill bolton]

well Bill was talking about the fact that he had a Atheros and it killed his BT so that's why he asked.

That was in 802.11n mode... still waiting to see what happens in this case in N mode operation!

Cheers,

Bill B.

[bill bolton]

This Linksys WRT350N was reported to use a Marvell CPU and Atheros AR5008 radio. So actually best match with the Lenovo/Atheros 11n card.

Thr WRT350N v1 for North America uses a Broadcom based chip set, the WRT350N v2 for Europe and Asia Pacific uses a Atheros based chip set.

I have a v1 I bought when in the US last year and from direct swap-in comparison with a collegue's locally acquired v2, the v1 has somewhat better RF performance.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[rek]

With relation to the Atheros abgn card (42T0825) and Bluetooth, I am happy to report that with an X60 Tablet at least, I haven't experienced any interference problems. It does not suffer any "sleep insomnia" issues, like those I had when trying this card with the X60s.

Interestingly I found that the X60t had three wireless antenna cables already installed. The loose cable wasn't for WWAN, as the planar didn't have a second mini-PCIe slot soldered in, nor does the LCD assembly have the WWAN antenna "hump".

The Wi-fi in this case was in 802.11n mode connected to a WRT350Nv1 (130Mbps), and I was using a Logitech V270 BT mouse to test.

[o1001010]

ok in my experience:

i am not a hardcore wireless guy at all, because most of the stuff i do is security related so i almost always use a wired connection.

but when it comes to wireless i do believe that atheros chips are better, better supported for linux, etc. i do understand that N is not official yet but its draft are very close to final if any changes will be made and if there are new firmware will be released to address the problem. with that being said, unless your thinkpad is ready for you to pop in the N, i won't recommend it. the problems of adding wires are well, not worth the effort unless you walk around your house quite a bit. I mean think about it, a good ISP like mine only provides internet to 10 megabits per second and g supports up to 54. unless you do alot of file transfer between your computers or have a mansion i fail to see the idea behind it.

[bill bolton]

i do understand that N is not official yet but its draft are very close to final if any changes will be made

No. There is going to be at least one more draft and there are still some issues still very much under debate. It will be sometime in 2009 before there is any likelihood of a standard being published.

January 2008, Taipei, Taiwan

Task Group "n" continued with resolution of comments received during working group recirculation ballot #115 on TGn Draft 3.0.

All previously approved editorial comments and 99 previously approved technical comment resolutions were incorporated into draft 3.02 and that version was approved.

Entering the January session there were 503 technical comments remaining to be resolved. Based upon resolution preparation performed following the November meeting, in an prior ad hoc and during this session there were 376 resolutions approved.

There remain 127 unresolved comments

Preparation of resolution will continue on teleconferences an in ad hoc meeting to occur in March.

It is expected that all remaining comments will be resolved and that TGn and WG11 will subsequently release Draft 4.0 for working group recirculation ballot following the March meeting.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[SHoTTa35]

Well i definitely do the sharing files bit (between me/xbox/other pcs to/from media server) so all the speeds are needed. Streaming multiple HD streams (one to xbox and one to laptop) is only possible with more speeds My ISP is also 20Mbps (or so it says) so 802.11B would not do me justice. I don't need that much since i don't do major data downloads but it's nice to have


I'm still having some troubles though... but i just figure it's either interference or draft N not being final. I had a Lenovo x61 here (7675-CTO) with built in Intel 802.11N and that got what i consider better speeds using the same drivers but that one all 3 antenna's installed vs my custom one

(off topic - i posted over on Neowin.net about my throughput issues incase anyone was curious )

[JayNYC]

how do i tell which wireless card i have in my T60P? (as in: for sure at the hardware level, not going through device manager)

[SHoTTa35]

well other than opening and looking yourself the only other options are parts lookup or device manager.

Why wouldn't you want to use the device manager though? It does state correctly whats in your machine. Since there are only a few options it shouldn't be that hard to figure out though.

Intel 3945ABG
Intel 4965AGN
Intel 4965AG_
Thinkpad ABG
Thinkpad ABGN

[o1001010]

this is what i read, copied from wikipedia.

Work on the 802.11n standard dates back to 2004. The draft is expected to be finalized in November 2008 with publication in July 2009,[1] but major manufacturers are now releasing 'pre-N', 'draft n' or 'MIMO-based' products based on early specs. These vendors anticipate the final version will not be significantly different from the draft, and in a bid to get the early mover advantage, are pushing ahead with the technology. Depending on the manufacturer, a firmware update may eventually be able to make current "Draft-N" hardware compatible with the final version.

but judging from the volume of n products on the market the only logical solution is to release firmwares. because any other way will either piss off the consumers or bankrupt the manufacturer

[sjthinkpader]

...


I'm still having some troubles though... but i just figure it's either interference or draft N not being final. I had a Lenovo x61 here (7675-CTO) with built in Intel 802.11N and that got what i consider better speeds using the same drivers but that one all 3 antenna's installed vs my custom one

...

I watched the signal strength of the 3 antennae via the Ralink monitor utility. I can see each antenna signal strength drop is I simply place my hand over each. This is a Ralink miniPCI card in a A31 with the 3rd antenna (Hitachi, similar to a R50 antenna) installed in the LCD cover.

I do have a new X61s with 3 antennae and I will try it with the intel 11n card tomorrow.

[Crunch]

bill, I didn't know there was this possible "overlap" with the two frequencies, so in response to your question, my BT works just as well as before I installed the card. Keep that in mind, though, I am only running the card at G speeds, albeit that it is the N card from Atheros.

Also, very interesting to find out about the dual band necessity for the highest speeds. So I'll get the 600N then, or an Access Point that has dual-band.

Alright, so I've been reading up on how wireless works ( http://www.oxfordtec.com/us/Wireless...duct_info.html, and http://wifi-modification.blogspot.co...wave-with.html stood out), especially with 802.11n in mind, of course. Is it a contradiction I'm seeing when some people say the lengths of the antennas have to be exactly one way for them to give you optimum speeds, but at the same time, for those who do not have integrated WiFi of any sort, and use a PCMCIA card instead, aren't all the antennas fairly close together?? This doesn't quite make sense to me. This theory of mine would be even more true in PDA/cellphones with WiFi, as the antennas are not only extremely close together, but also tiny, in comparison. Again, this is just a theory based on what some have said about the antennas having to be apart at JUST the right length??

Next, and I think we touched on that already, is perhaps using the WWAN antenna as the third cable. I think I remember that you said that the WWAN cards operate at 2.1GHz...does that sound right? I would think that the CARD, NOT the cable, controls the frequency?? There are TWO cables coming from the Verizon WWAN antenna to its card, which is suspiciously placed so that it's about exactly the length that the other two are which go from the WiFi card up behind the screen. The WiFi card is a bit closer to the WWAN antenna, but I can certainly run it so that the cable's length remains what it is now.

So...(looking for an easy way out lol), should I attempt to disconnect one of the cables and attach it to the remaining plug on the Atheros card, and see what happens?? I am going to run out tomorrow or the day after, and buy a dual-band router or Access Point. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to get an AP. So again, with that setup, should I see the crazy 200+Mbps speeds?

I followed above links and read through the antennas that the first site offers. Wow, they're quite inexpensive. How would they fit into this equation? Would I use one of those and connect the Atheros card with the WWAN antenna? This was a PURE shot in the dark? Did I hit anything??

One friend of mine was also talking about making the WWAN antenna dedicated 5GHz connection, and am I correct, that the other two wires (TR1/TR2) with an N router/AP in the picture, they will ALSO transmit N, along with the G, etc.??

We're ALMOST there... and then many more people will be able to use this as to how to accomplish this in a practical manner!!

[bill bolton]

Any radio/wireless communications system has a degree of inherent complexity, even if from a product marketing point of view it has been packaged up as something which seems to be plug-n-play.

To get the optimal results, antenna specifications are imporant, but given that there are many other factors that also impact achieving optimal results, there's not too much point in getting too concerned about antennas.

So, a 2100 MHz antenna intended for a "3G" WWAN operation (though by no means all 3G WWAN services operated in that band) is probably going to be OK as a third antenna in a 802.11n MiMo antenna array.

In terms of what raw access link speed you will see with an 802.11n WiFi link, it depends on a whole bunch of things, including how much 802.11g traffic there is in your locality, so the only way to know in the present situation of a mixture of different equipment (which may not all adhere to the same interim version of the 802.11n standard) is to try it and see.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[sjthinkpader]

I had the intel 11n card in a X61s tested with the Airlink101 300N (Ralink chipset) AP today. This X61s came with an Atheros a/b/g but did have 3 antennae installed already, no WWAN antenna. It made a 144Mb link. I guess this is due to single band instead of dual band?

But the brief test I did with T60 + Atheros card with this same AP showed 300Mb link.

...
Alright, so I've been reading up on how wireless works ( http://www.oxfordtec.com/us/Wireless...duct_info.html, and http://wifi-modification.blogspot.co...wave-with.html stood out), especially with 802.11n in mind, of course. Is it a contradiction I'm seeing when some people say the lengths of the antennas have to be exactly one way for them to give you optimum speeds, but at the same time, for those who do not have integrated WiFi of any sort, and use a PCMCIA card instead, aren't all the antennas fairly close together?? ...

Length of antenna has to match the wavelength for best reception. 2.4Ghz wavelength is roughly 31.25mm for quarter wavelength.

http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org ... rmula.html

This may be too long to go in a particular place in the LCD cover. So it may be arranged in a spiral (stubby antennae) or a zig-zag to save space. PCMCIA cards typically use a spiral made on the PCB or a patch antenna. The older Thinkpad antenna is a folded "J" shape. The Foxconn antenna I installed in the T60 is a zigzag shape.

In college we tried to receive the NIST WWV time standard broadcast. The antenna was a cable strung from the 3rd floor to the ground.

[bill bolton]

But the brief test I did with T60 + Atheros card with this same AP showed 300Mb link.

The Atheros card will establish a 802.11n link entirely in the 2.GHz band, but this is only workable if there are no nearby 802.11g WiFi networks, and no 802.11g/b traffic on the same network. Otherwise the real data throughput is abysmal, even if the link speed is indicated as 300 Mbps.

I am not sure if the Atheros 802.11n capable card that works in the T60 has 5GHz capability. I didn't have a 802.11n Draft 2 dual band access point/router available at the time I had it installed.

Did you test concurrent Bluetooth operation when you had the Atheros card running in 300 Mbps mode?

Cheers,

Bill B.

[sjthinkpader]

No, I did not test for concurrent BT operation. I only had this Atheros card a few days and was battling the on/off problem. Finally I return it and the replacement intel card they sent would not work in the T60. It seems to work fine in the X61s.

I am still looking for another Atheros card. Their HQ is just down the street from our office, and across a creek from Marvell. Broadcom is in near by Sunnyvale and Ralink is near my house. Silicon Valley is a small place.

[Crunch]

Any radio/wireless communications system has a degree of inherent complexity, even if from a product marketing point of view it has been packaged up as something which seems to be plug-n-play.

To get the optimal results, antenna specifications are imporant, but given that there are many other factors that also impact achieving optimal results, there's not too much point in getting too concerned about antennas.

Alright, so that's it then? Time to buy the stuff needed and simply see what happens? I'm all for that idea. I'll be happy if I just get 150 or so Mbps...That would be sheer power compared to G, as it'll be roughly three times faster already. If it goes any higher, that'll be a nice plus.

The WWAN I have, by the way, is a Verizon WWAN, and they don't operate at 2100MHz, but rather 850, and 1900Mhz. I'm not sure if that's what you meant. 2100MHz is not used in the U.S., or Canada, and this is an "American T60p". Whatever that means.

Double or nothing starts....right now.

[sjthinkpader]

Here is the 3rd antenna I used in the T60.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wireless-bluetooth- ... dZViewItem

Here is the 3rd antenna I used in the A31.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hitachi-mini-PCI-An ... dZViewItem

Both seemed to work reasonably well.

The Verizon WWAN is EVDO, part of the CDMA2000 1900Mhz system. WW use HSPA/HSDPA, a subset of the 1800Mhz GSM and 2100Mhz UMTS. AT&T system has HSPA/HSDPA. Yes, there are exceptions in frequencies used WW. I use a Sprint EVDO Cardbus card.