is thermal paste really needed?

[smith07031]

Recently removed a defective lcd(whole unit) from t30 laptop. It was a nightmare(you have to remove entire palmrest/keyboard bezel in order to do this. Finally installed new lcd unit, replaced screws as best as I could. During the install, I had to temporarily uncrew fan and then reseat it, attached screws for mounting it back in.
I never(though I had picked up and removed fan from board) applied thermal paste. Unit works fine now, absolutely no fan noise, error msgs etc. I do use a small laptop cooler w all my laptops.
While researching the thermal paste issue(you are supposed to apply small paste before screwing in fan) by googling it, it seems that its worth or usefulness is doubtful; has anybody have any thoughts on this?
As far as the fan error msg many people experience when buying a new/replacement fan, you can buy a fan from ebay that says' t30 thinkpad fan replacement' but the only way to get the exact pt is by researching this w the machines serv tag or serial # which will give you the correct fru#. You can take a fan that works fine in one t30 laptop, place it in another t30, and you will get 'fan error'.
You follow me?
Apparently thinkpads esp. t30 are very difficult to take apart and difficult therefore to service. Also you will get zero help from tech
support if warranty is up. This is Not the case w dell; all you have to do is transfer ownership over the phone; also dell laptops incl. c640 latitude, d600 latitude etc. are extremely easy to take apart; There is extensive documentation on this on dells site, and numerous videos and tutorials on this all over the net.
By the way just installed speedfan says hdd temp 120-123 fahrenheit, aspi 102 degrees fahrenheit
Anybody feel free to comment on this. Thank you.

[rkawakami]

Depending upon the surface interface between the top of the CPU and the bottom of the heatsink/fan assembly, you may not see much of a difference between using thermal paste and not using it.

That said however, it would be to your advantage to clean off any existing paste with isopropyl alcohol, allow the surfaces to totally dry and then squirt a tiny amount the thermal paste onto the top of the CPU. What this does is it provides a conductive path between the CPU and heatsink which will allow the extraction of the most amount of heat. The paste helps fill the micro-voids that are present when the two surfaces are mated. Your ASPI temperature of 102F (39C) seems to be on the low side given my T23s run around 45C at idle. Your hard drive temp of 122F (50C) is probably very close to the maximum spec of the drive.

Can't comment on the difficulty of T30 teardowns as I have never performed one. The T23 is a piece of cake when you've done as many as I have. The Hardware Maintenance Manual (HMM) for Thinkpads is as clear a document that I've seen for the proper disassembly (and re-assembly) of a laptop. If you didn't have the HMM for the T30 it may explain why you had a hard time. I believe that there are also videos on the IBM/Lenovo web sites which show you various servicing procedures.

[smith07031]

I tried using hardware manual for t30 but it is old and not that easy to visualise when taking unit apart. What do you mean abt the hdrive temp, believe it is old 4200rpm one. Rt now w speedfan: 118f hdd,
124 f acpi temp. How easy is the say the 't40' to say replace whole lcd assembly?
You see w t30p laptop, you have to remove abt 12 screws minimum, rem entire palmrest keyboard bezel and then install new lcd assembly.
With dells,you remove lcd unit w several screws, never have to remove palmrest which is a nightmare and bad design in my opinion.
the only time you have to do this w dell laptop is to replace a bad fan.

[ajkula66]

If you think that T30 is difficult to work on (which I disagree with, but to each his own) you've never seen a MacBook opened...

And there's really no doubt that thermal paste/arctic silver IS useful when properly applied. On a machine with P4M CPU this is a must, because they're hot to begin with.

My experiences only.

[rkawakami]

The HMMs are what they are. The ones that I have used (560z, 600-series, T2x, X2x, A31(p), T41) have been quite sufficient for getting the motherboard out of the case and putting everything back together again. Yes they have line-drawings and not actual pictures (like Dell) so if that is your preference (and expectation) then I can see how you are disappointed with IBM's manuals. I don't know if there have been any updates made to the HMMs since when they were first published so I can't say if they are "old".

With respect to the design differences between the Thinkpad and Dell I can only say that most consumers are never going to be taking their systems apart. I do have to somewhat agree with you that for some systems, getting to the "standard" memory is more work than simply unscrewing a small panel on the bottom of the system (e.g., T4x where you have to remove the keyboard).

My comment about your hard drive temperature is based upon a few of the datasheets I have seen. From what I remember, 55C (131F) is a common maximum operating temperature. Determine what your hard drive model number is and then Google for the datasheet. There's probably not much danger in operating the drive constantly near the maximum; just be aware if it goes above the published spec.

[RealBlackStuff]

The T30 is almost the same as the T23 (IMHO).
Taking one completely apart and putting it together takes about 40 minutes max.

To put Thermal Paste on, you need to take the keyboard and the palmrest off, then the CPU cooler.
While you're at it, remove all the dust bunnies that no doubt live in that area.

[NovaKnowledgeNow]

Cost of thermal past $2.13
Cost of replacing motherboard, chip and the time and frustration of the job.... $???

okay,.... rethink this and you tell me...

[madkat]

applying thermal paste reduced the cpu temperature on my T30 - maximum 10 degrees celsius

T30 hard to dismantle???? i consider it an extrimely well engineered laptop - and the hardware manual is ok - the 40 minutes (as realblackstuff said) it's a realistic time

[jamnkats]

I personally don't find my T30 hard to take apart, but I've never removed the LCD screen. I recently applied arctic silver paste and while my fan problem continues, my CPU temp has DEFINITELY decreased. I didn't notice much difference the first day, but running virus checks almost always brought the temp up to 80C and after 2-3 days of Arctic Silver, I have yet to see the CPU at 70F and when it gets "hot" that now means 60F-ish.

I don't see much change at idle, but I have definitely seen a decrease when the machine is working.

[madkat]

hmmm... you're making me go and buy a syringe of arctic sylver ... if there's so much of a difference
the only reason i didn't do it - is the fact that AS "expires" after a certain period of time (shorter than other thermal compounds - from what i've heard, anyway)

[RealBlackStuff]

That must be one of the fairy tales of your Count Dracula!
Never heard of AS 'expiring'!

[smith07031]

Look what takes you 45 minutes as pointed out by the person on here Who Has Actually Done It, not just talked about it will take you 10 minutes tops on an older p4 dell or even pm laptop such as d600 latitude. You remove keyboard, you remove screws holding in hinges and lcd panel, pull out lcd ribbon connector, insert whole new replacement unit w hinges, attach to video connector, you tighten up screws and put keyboard back in. IT IS VERY SIMPLE WITH real pictures and diagrams in maint manual or each dell laptop, not to mention many videos on utube google video etc showing you in Streaming Video how to do it step by step.
What takes 10 minutes will take 45 minutes MINIMUM to replace lcd panel on thinkpads. If you doubt this obviously you have not even attempted to take apart a thinkpad to replace a lcd panel.
Why should you have to remove an entire palmrest (ridiculous, not meant for servicing) to replace an lcd panel. I suggest you try this same task on a dell latitude or older dell laptop and then you will see the difference. (Try it, you will see the difference)
AS far as the thermal paste,I used speed fan to measure temp of cpu and harddrive after hours of use on 2 t30s I own: one was one that I replaced lcd panel and not applied thermal paste(I had removed fan which was necessary to attach video connector), the other was complete refurbished unit from very well known online supplier, this unit was still in mint condition, never even opened up by me. The t30 without the paste that I put back together ran cooler then the one with the paste that I had paid a good price for
(no, not off ebay)from a reputable online site. Do you feel me now?
I have respect for those guys that have done this, not just typed out words(talk is cheap indeed) on this forum.
I also have a t40 in mint condition ; the main improvement on that I would say would be the keyboard which on the t40 is much like the feel of the dell laptops I have mentioned. The keyboard on the t30 is to stiff and the'pitch' is too high for my preference.
The best component on both thinkpads is the internal wireless which is better then the dells I have mentioned.
Therefore I will conclude my post on these issues, remember, don't write about anything you have never attempted.

[madkat]

@Realblackstuff - it's a hearsay only, from some geeks that were replacing their thermal paste every 6 months, and there is written on several forums too... it's hard form me too to believe this... one of this days i'll get some AS from a friend of mine and try it

@Smith - it is possible for a cpu to run hotter with thermal paste if it is incorrectly applied, or it is a "bad" kind... or if it is used toghether with a thermal pad
in the case of my T30 - with a "no-name" paste it runs cooler than without it... the same happened with several desktop computers i've tinkered with
btw - i've dismantled and pt back toghether 2 times my T30, and a T43 once

i think when i'll get hold of the AS - first i'll thoroughly clean the cpu and the heatsink, put in back together and run some tests - then aply the thermal paste - and run the same tests
then i'll post the results

[smith07031]

Thank you, madkat, now we'll know the real truth about this myth.

[aaa]

My .02...
AS only makes a small difference compared to no-name stuff, like around 2 degrees c. Any observed huge differences must either be because of dust being cleaned out at the same time (most likely) or the old grease somehow drying up (I've never seen this myself...).

Also, the old paste often continues to work (haven't measured how well) even if you don't replace it.

No paste at all (ie cleaning off the old and installing it bare) is bad, I've had actual crashes on hotter cpus.

[RealBlackStuff]

What takes 10 minutes will take 45 minutes MINIMUM to replace lcd panel on thinkpads. If you doubt this obviously you have not even attempted to take apart a thinkpad to replace a lcd panel.

Wonder where you get your wisdom from...

To replace the LCD panel (I've done it at least 10 times on T23 and T30), you only need to remove the 3 screws that hold the LCD bezel, plus the 4 small screws that hold the LCD itself.
Detach the LCD- and inverter-cables, swap LCD, re-attach inverter- and LCD-cable. Put the 4 screws for the LCD and the 3 screws for the bezel back in, apply the screw-covers and bingo...
No more than 5 minutes!

Only if you need to swap the LCD-cable itself do you have to take it further apart!

[schen]

What takes 10 minutes will take 45 minutes MINIMUM to replace lcd panel on thinkpads. If you doubt this obviously you have not even attempted to take apart a thinkpad to replace a lcd panel.

Wonder where you get your wisdom from...

To replace the LCD panel (I've done it at least 10 times on T23 and T30), you only need to remove the 3 screws that hold the LCD bezel, plus the 4 small screws that hold the LCD itself.
Detach the LCD- and inverter-cables, swap LCD, re-attach inverter- and LCD-cable. Put the 4 screws for the LCD and the 3 screws for the bezel back in, apply the screw-covers and bingo...
No more than 5 minutes!

Only if you need to swap the LCD-cable itself do you have to take it further apart!

I like many others on this Forum are probably able to back this up, but I have some other experience which includes some years supporting, among others; the previously mentioned Dells. I can tell you with certainty that they are no easier to take apart and put back together. And for some years, it was more difficult since they like almost all manufactures other than IBM, did not provide readily downloadable service manuals.

I was at 2 seperate institutions where I made the switch to ThinkPads due to the ability to easily support them. If you are inclined to think that I'm biased because I'm a part of this forum. I joined this forum due to my overwhelmingly positive experience with ThinkPads vs. Compaqs, Toshibas and Dells. If you scratch any IT manager, you'll find someone who doesn't really all that dogmatic about brands, but they are loyal to brands that are proven to work and are easy to support. In that world: Time Is Money! And as the saying goes: "Money talks, Bull*** walks"!

[smith07031]

In order to replace the Whole lcd panel along with hinges and ribbon(instead of taking apart lcd which you may be referring to) you must remove Entire Palmrest/ keyboard bezel as well. If you look thru the posts on this subject, you will see that one cannot get access to the screws bolting the lcd panel to the body of the t30 thinkpad without removing the entire palmrest also know as 'keyboard bezel assembly 'by lenovo techs. We are talking about minimum 40 screws in all just to take off Entire lcd assembly and then drop in new entire assembly , then go though process of replacing all 40+ screws including palmest/keyboard bezel, etc. You must also unscrew the fan to get enough room to get access to the hinge on that side.
If I am wrong that I would like you to provide step by step instructions on doing this your way because as one gentlemen said the entire palmrest/keyboard bezel must be removed as well.
Like I said to take off a bad lcd along with hinges and video ribbon on a dell laptop takes about 7 minutes max time, then you simply drop in the new lcd complete assembly attach the video connector to the board, tighten the screws up, put the keyboard back in; on a dell laptop such as dell c640 latitude the Entire process of replacing bad lcd panel and replacing it is Maximum of 20 to 25 minutes(if you are experienced, if you are it will be even faster)
If anyone needs instructions on how to do this on a dell laptop similat to one I mentioned(p4, p4 m etc) please post on here.
One thing I would like to note, I always liked the cisco internal wireless mini pci card that comes with t30 thinkpads; I was told by a vendor that that particular item would not work with a dell laptop, well I am happy to say it works excellent on my c640 dell latitude and is far superior to the mini pci internal card that originally came with the dell laptop mentioned here. The driver I downloaded from lenovo.com and successfully am using it in dell latitude laptop with no problems whatsoever.
Thank you, feel free to post/correct me if I am wrong about entire palmrest removal requirement to install complete new lcd assembly on t30 laptop.

[ajkula66]

FYI, keyboard bezel DOES NOT equal palmrest. Not on all ThinkPads.

Why would you be replacing the hinges in the first place? This is T30 that we're discussing, likely the sturdiest ThinkPad ever made apart from 600 series, not a Dell...

RBS is correct in stating order and procedure(s) for LCD swapping, with and without cable involved.

Why swap the whole assembly unless someone stepped one it?

What is your point exactly, since I seem to be missing it?

[sjthinkpader]

...by lenovo techs. We are talking about minimum 40 screws in all just to take off Entire lcd assembly and then drop in new entire assembly , then go though process of replacing all 40+ screws including palmest/keyboard bezel, etc. You must also unscrew the fan to get enough room to get access to the hinge on that side.
If I am wrong that I would like you to provide step by step instructions on doing this your way because as one gentlemen said the entire palmrest/keyboard bezel must be removed as well....

Here is the list of screws to remove the T30 LCD cover as a complete unit.

KB screws 2
Bezel screws, 14
>>Back,3
>>Front, 3
>>Battery cavity, 3
>>Under KB, 5
LCD cable, 1
LCD hinge screws 6
23 screws in total

Wireless versions, 2 more screws

No need to remove the fan at all.

Clearly you are using 2nd hand info and bad 2nd hand info at that. I am not a professional tech but I can replace it within the time you said for a Dell.

[madkat]

back to the topic...

applied AS5 half an hour ago
ran the test with the scannnig of a page on my lpt scanner
before AS5 (with no-name paste) the CPU reached 86-87 degrees - only with photoshop and the scanner software running (cpu full speed) - and it took more than 5 minutes to cool down
now - with AS5 - th ran up to 79 degrees with the same applications as above AND yahoo messenger and browsing the web at the same time
and it took about 20 seconds after finishing the scan (and full load) - to cool down to around 55

so - applying CORRECTLY GOOD thermal paste does make a lot of sense!

edit:
i made the other experiment i've promised on my post above - cpu and heatsink without any thermal paste (just thoroughly cleaned) - it heats up rapidly to almost 80 degrees in normal load... it was enough for me not to continue the test... although i have a 1,8ghz spare cpu, but i didnn,t want to destroy the actual 2.0 i use

[T23FUN]

I've worked on high power TV transmitters where the larger package transistors and voltage regulators run very hot, can't touch them, and in high frequency environments. We always used some industrial grade thermal paste. It makes a lot of sense if it prolongs the life of any component.

[ZAGNUT]

if you could properly lap the heat sink to the cpu you would get the best possible heat transfer BUT none of the geek sites i've seen that promote this have a clue as to what lapping really means...

when i got my T30 with the 2.0GHz CPU just replacing the thermal pad with a super thin smear of bog standard dow-corning paste made a huge difference in heat. maybe the CPU had previousy been removed and reinstalled without properly replacing the used pad but who knows. it's also very important to understand that more is not better with thermal paste. i like to use a card (joker usually works best) to wipe the grease onto both surfaces leaving just enough to fill in all the little voids, ridges and scratches that can be seen on the surfaces.

and since my machine lives and works in a dusty shop i regularly remove the PCI cover to clean the fan and blow out the cooling tract with compressed air. this also makes a noticeable difference. probably the most torturous thing i have done is to run HFslip while the ambient temperature is close to 40°C and saw no problem. my T30 has also never had the infamous memory slot problem.

another thing to keep in mind when tearing down a machine is that the little ufl connectors on the antennas aren't rated for a lot of plug/unplug cycles, some i've seen are rated for as little 3 cycles. best just to leave them connected and to somehow support the removed card so it won't put too much stress on the wires and connectors.




dave