T60p (2007-WUK) availability from IBM Pre-Owned

[nonyNony]

I just purchased a T60p from the IBM Certified Pre-Owned web site - http://www-304.ibm.com/shop/americas/we ... logId=-840 - my first flexview ever.

Unfortunately, the flexview LCD panel is an ID Tech part (FRU - 42T0345) and not an FFS, BOE-Hydis part as I would have preferred. Also, the panel will not be repaired by Flextronics (even while under Warranty) as Flextronics indicated that they will only replace a failing unit with an equivalent or better model (or give you a refund).

1) Is there any way to get a proper maintenance agreement from Lenovo (or IBM) in order to protect my flexview panel?
2) How much pain and suffering is required to swap in a BOE-Hydis panel?

If anyone is interested, it looks like a number of 2007-WUKs are available from IBM and eBay as of this post.

nN

[dr_st]

I don't understand:

* Is there anything wrong with the current panel?
* Why wouldn't they replace it under warranty if it is ever required?

[ajkula66]

Assuming you've never done it before, an LCD swap can be done in two hours with the HMM open...

Now, here's my question: have you ever seen a Hydis UXGA panel in person?

If the answer to this question is "yes", the next one is: have you ever seen a Hydis and an ID Tech side-by-side?

If the answer to this one is "yes" as well, the final one would be: why specifically do you prefer a Hydis screen to the extent of swapping an LCD?

[andre#4]

I was thinking of buying one of those because I want an IPS uxga. I didn't know that there were bad IPS screens and good IPS screens.

or are you sayng that it is not an IPS panel? What exactly is the problem. Is the screen unsatisfactory? I would be buying this machine mainly for the screen, so it would be helpful to know the problem. Just saying you don't like the brand name of the lcd panel doesn't tell me enough.

What don't you like about it?

I have an X301 with a terrible TN screen and a X200 tablet with a very good AFFS screen. If it is as good as a AFFS screen I would be happy. If it is like the X301 screen I would not buy it. X301 screen is washed out and has no viewing angles and the colors reverse with the slightest change in angle and the blacks look like light grey, and it looks worse than a $300. walmart laptop.

See what I mean? How bad is it exactly? what type of problems does it have?

[nonyNony]

I don't understand:

* Is there anything wrong with the current panel?
* Why wouldn't they replace it under warranty if it is ever required?

IBM-certified pre-owned (refurbished) Thinkpads carry a 3 month very limited warranty that can be extended for an additional 12 months. The terms and conditions that I mentioned above were conveyed to me by Flextronics tech support. Here's my take of how it pans out -

If we manage to purchase a flexView unit that's under warranty from Lenovo and our cherished flexView panel needs to be replaced, it will be replaced as expected. Whereas - if we purchase an IBM-certified pre-owned unit and our flexView panel needs to be replaced, Flextronics will not repair the unit with a replacement panel, as they don't do repairs. They will however provide a replacement unit if and only if they have one in stock. If they don't have a flexview-equipped unit available at the time (or more generally an equivalent or better model) they will give us a refund. This is very different than the EZserv and/or on-site maintenance that we are all acustomed to. Consequently, all other things being equal, its to our advantage to purchase a flexView unit with a Lenovo warranty.

I was disappointed that my 2007-WUK didn't have a BOE-Hydis panel because I thought there was a possibility that it would. If I was an IBMer with the appropriate access, I could possibly come up with a short list of likely-equipped models. The differentiating characteristics of the BOE-Hydis panels have been dealt with extensively in other threads. The ID Tech unit that may have to go back to IBM (within 7 days of purchase (and the clock is ticking)) is certainly a step up from the panel on my T43P.

If there is a way to purchase out-of-warranty maintenance from Lenovo, I will do so and keep my unit. And, if I'm wasting my time by purchasing a BOE-Hydis panel because there would be no discernable visual improvement over the ID Tech panel, then I need to review the several hundred posts on flexView, again.

Edit: Alternatively, I can keep my 2007-WUK, swap out the panel, and retain the ID Tech panel as a spare.

Caveat emptor.

nN

[nonyNony]

I was thinking of buying one of those because I want an IPS uxga. I didn't know that there were bad IPS screens and good IPS screens.

There are good IPS screens and better IPS screens. http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display

I think that the IBM pre-owned refurb is a good deal at the advertised price.

nN

[ajkula66]

While the referenced ThinkWiki page is a good source of information in many respects, real life is rarely as simple as it looks in comparison charts...here's how I see it:

a) The most important thing when dealing with a used laptop is the condition of the screen. If your ID Tech is in near perfect condition with no dead pixels, stuck hairs/dust particles or severe backlight bleed, the replacement might easily prove to be dissapointing.

b) Count your lucky stars that your machine has arrived in acceptable condition, since people have had very mixed experiences with IBM refurbs over the last couple of years.

c) There is no guarantee that a brand new Hydis panel, if you could source one, would come without any defects. And what do you do then? Return it for three red pixels in the middle of the screen? Good luck with that.

Unless you've seen these two panels side-by-side, and actually worked on them in that manner, there is VERY little difference to be noted in everyday use. Especially for someone who isn't accustomed to IPS/AFFS.

Enjoy your "new" T60p.

[crazyfrog]

There are good IPS screens and better IPS screens. http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display
nN

According to the link, BOE-Hydis's flexview lcd extends the viewing angle to 180 degrees compared to the well-known 170 degrees of flexview viewing angle. But the question is how many chances has one got to watch their laptop screen in such an angle?

[dr_st]

According to the link, BOE-Hydis's flexview lcd extends the viewing angle to 180 degrees compared to the well-known 170 degrees of flexview viewing angle. But the question is how many chances has one got to watch their laptop screen in such an angle?

All IPS screens do 180 degrees. Sometimes they are marked as 170, 176, 178, 180... It doesn't make any difference, as you correctly noted. For practical purposes all the user should be concerned about is that colors don't distort at extreme angles at all.

[Troels]

According to the link, BOE-Hydis's flexview lcd extends the viewing angle to 180 degrees compared to the well-known 170 degrees of flexview viewing angle.

True, but at diagonal off-angle views (i.e. UR, LR, LL, UL) , the Hydis panel is inferior to the IDtech models. U/D/L/R the Hydis panels are surely better, but in overall usage i felt i got better viewing angles from the IDtechs.


When using the laptop with the Hydis AFFS panel it seemed a bit like my eyes were not seeing the same tone when displaying dark images. While it was completely acceptable, the IDtech still fared better in this regard. Black is black, and not the "black crush" type of black.
It's surely just a matter of applying the right polarizers, and it's always some sort of trade-off.

The Hydis panel is slightly better at producing "red" colors, but neither of them are anywhere near close to 72% NTSC (most laptop LCDs aren't).

The Idtechs and Hydis panelser are closely calibrated within their color gamuts to sRGB, which sets these panels apart from all the competition.
The Idtech panels are based on the original IPS type which has a relatively low transmittance compared with modern IPS variants. A lot of light is thus "trapped" by the TFT matrix, and one thus normally wouldn't want to apply color filters that absorb too much of the light either. Why the AFFS displays for laptops don't have wider gamuts i have no clue.

So to summarize, in my oppinion, unless there's anything wrong with your current IPS panel, i wouldn't recommend spending further cash on the AFFS panel, although a lot of people may think it is the new "benchmark".

[jgrobertson]

I have a T60P with Flexview and I love it. I got it on the closeout from Lenovo and it is almost out of warranty. I replaced the original CPU with a Core-2-Duo and the display is great.

My understanding is that these screens are no longer made and that one is limited to replacement stocks probably at Lenovo/IBM. FYI, I currently have 3 thinkpads and have owned 6. I had the screen go dim (T30) on one which IBM replaced but otherwise I have not had a display problem. The likelihood that your display will conk out is not high. I would not worry about it. (I understand that the production yield was not good on the flexviews and that they have focused on screens for cell phones etc. instead).

With the ongoing evolution in these things, and netbooks, ipads etc. there will be newer devices that you are more likely to want to replace your Thinkpad before it fails.

[nonyNony]

While the referenced ThinkWiki page is a good source of information in many respects, real life is rarely as simple as it looks in comparison charts...here's how I see it:

a) The most important thing when dealing with a used laptop is the condition of the screen. If your ID Tech is in near perfect condition with no dead pixels, stuck hairs/dust particles or severe backlight bleed, the replacement might easily prove to be dissapointing.

b) Count your lucky stars that your machine has arrived in acceptable condition, since people have had very mixed experiences with IBM refurbs over the last couple of years.

c) There is no guarantee that a brand new Hydis panel, if you could source one, would come without any defects. And what do you do then? Return it for three red pixels in the middle of the screen? Good luck with that.
<snip>Enjoy your "new" T60p.

Thanx George.

A. The IDTech panel appears to be in near perfect condition. I could be very happy with this unit.
B. If the refurb did not meet my quality standards, it would have gone back to IBM the day I received it.
C. I'm told that there are reputable suppliers (including a brick & mortar store in Jersey) for the Hydis, with "bad pixel" return criteria no worse than Lenovo's.

However, the no-repair policy under IBM's limited warranty increases the likelyhood that I may have to forfeit my IPS unit, should the panel fail (or degrade) -- and that would bring me back to square one.

It may make sense to return this unit to IBM for a full refund and buy a UXGA T60p (from a reputable seller) that's still under an extensible warranty with Lenovo.

Looks like I have 4 options -

Option 1 - Purchase and install an IPS replacement panel and keep the current panel as a spare.
Option 2 - Work a maintenance deal with IBM/Lenovo that covers panel repair and doesn't break the budget
Option 3 - Return the current unit and snag another unit that's still on maintenance
Option 4 - Do nothing and enjoy my newly acquired T60p (well, maybe upgrade the CPU)

nN

[ajkula66]

I'd love to hear about reputable suppliers for Hydis. Seriously. Mine has gone belly up a couple of months ago.

Option 1 might, as I've stated before, prove to be disappointing. Unless you want a Hydis LCD for a specific reason, option # 4 is the most sensible one.

Options 2 and 3 are sheer fiction, unless you're Sal's golfing pal. Then again, if you were, you wouldn't be posting here with such dilemmae...

[Harryc]

Option 4 ... please, we're begging you

[nonyNony]

(According to the link, BOE-Hydis's flexview lcd extends the viewing angle to 180 degrees compared to the well-known 170 degrees of flexview viewing angle)
True, but at diagonal off-angle views (i.e. UR, LR, LL, UL) , the Hydis panel is inferior to the IDtech models. U/D/L/R the Hydis panels are surely better, but in overall usage i felt i got better viewing angles from the IDtechs.
<snip>
So to summarize, in my oppinion, unless there's anything wrong with your current IPS panel, i wouldn't recommend spending further cash on the AFFS panel, although a lot of people may think it is the new "benchmark".

Troels,

Thanx for clarifying the IPS panel technology tradeoffs and for sharing your research and expertise with us. However, without a proper warranty from IBM, (read: covers flexView replacement), I am reluctant to purchase this fine 2007-WUK unit (for under $600) and I'm sure that anyone who has gotten a replacement panel under warranty would agree with me. Nor can I recommend this IBM-Certified deal to anyone else (without qualification). I'm baffled that IBM would offer a warranty that doesn't include repairs. Too many people across the globe have gotten "burned" on these and similar "limited warranty" deals.

edit: Changed "repair" to "replacement";added "(without qualification")

nN

[ajkula66]

I don't quite understand what baffles you...

IBM never repaired screens. They were always replaced.

Take it from someone who's had original DBU IPS LCDs on new A31p units replaced under warranty back in 2003...as well as a couple on T60p machines last year.

You'd be getting the exact same deal as you would've any time in the past.

[nonyNony]

I don't quite understand what baffles you...

IBM never repaired screens. They were always replaced.

Take it from someone who's had original DBU IPS LCDs on new A31p units replaced under warranty back in 2003...as well as a couple on T60p machines last year.

You'd be getting the exact same deal as you would've any time in the past.

The current limited warranty on IBM-certified refurbs does not include screen replacement. I would love to be wrong on this one. This was the whole point of my thread as I indicated in my first post under (1).

nN

[ajkula66]

Where exactly did you get that piece of information from?

Do you have it in writing?

[nonyNony]

Where exactly did you get that piece of information from?

Do you have it in writing?

See Post #5 above.

nN

[dr_st]

In other words, they sell you units that may be out of Lenovo's warranty, in which case they give you their own limited warranty, but they will not pay for parts and labor, and will only offer exchange or refund. It's quite reasonable if you think of it, although may not satisfy an owner who does want to keep the machine, but wishes only to fix a specific problem.

[ajkula66]

As per this page:

http://www-304.ibm.com/shop/americas/we ... Id=2576396

they are entitled to Ez Serv.

That's why I was asking whether OP had something in writing that showed the limits of such an agreement.

[asusi]

Can someone tell me how to determine which panel I have in my T60p (2007WUK)
Thanks

[ajkula66]

Welcome to the forum!

Go to this page:

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... yle=lenovo

Enter the required info and proceed to the next page, then click onto "parts originally shipped with this system" link.

[asusi]

Welcome to the forum!

Go to this page:

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... yle=lenovo

Enter the required info and proceed to the next page, then click onto "parts originally shipped with this system" link.

Thanks, but that is what IBM has on record. What if the screen was replaced by someone? Is there a way from within the laptop to see the exact part number?

[Harryc]

Try Everest -
http://www.lavalys.com/

[nonyNony]

Can someone tell me how to determine which panel I have in my T60p (2007WUK)
Thanks

Alternatively, you can go into the registry and read the reported EDID -

HKLM\Sytem\CurrentControlSet\Enum\DISPLAY\LEN4046\pnp_string\Device Parameters\EDID
The manufacturer's part number will appear near the end of the EDID.

Only attempt this if you are comfortable with registry operations.

The 2007WUK is a great flexview machine and is being offered from IBM Certified Pre-Owned (US) for $483.65.

Just be sure that the unit they send you has a flexview screen in excellent condition and doesn't exhibit any signs of old age such as discoloration and significant loss of brightness.

nN

[nonyNony]

In other words, they sell you units that may be out of Lenovo's warranty, in which case they give you their own limited warranty, but they will not pay for parts and labor, and will only offer exchange or refund. It's quite reasonable if you think of it, although may not satisfy an owner who does want to keep the machine, but wishes only to fix a specific problem.

It's very reasonable. But under these terms and conditions, if your flexview lost 50% of its brightness or dust particles accumulated behind the screen, as has been reported on this forum, you would not get a replacement screen.

dr_st: Haven't you received any replacement screens under warranty?

nN

[dr_st]

I've replaced a total of 4 SXGA+ IPS screens in the past 2.5 years or so. One on a T42, two on a T60, another one on another T60.

3 of the 4 times the replacement was due to minor defects, probably internal pressure/wear marks. It looks like a whiter-than-white spot in the panel, kind of like there is a hole in the panel and the backlight is shining through it. Surprisingly it is actually mostly visible on white background, and not from every angle, which makes it minor in most cases.

1 of the 4 times the replacement was due to a fairly large (about 3cm long) hair stuck inside the LCD (it's like the dust particle issue taken to the extreme).

I never tried to replace the screens due to lack of brightness, because although it is possible to see that the newer screen is brighter when compared side by side, my ~2-yr old screens were still plenty bright enough.

All the replacements were done by IBM, under IBM/Lenovo warranty.

[asusi]

Alternatively, you can go into the registry and read the reported EDID -

HKLM\Sytem\CurrentControlSet\Enum\DISPLAY\LEN4046\pnp_string\Device Parameters\EDID
The manufacturer's part number will appear near the end of the EDID.

Only attempt this if you are comfortable with registry operations.

The 2007WUK is a great flexview machine and is being offered from IBM Certified Pre-Owned (US) for $483.65.

Just be sure that the unit they send you has a flexview screen in excellent condition and doesn't exhibit any signs of old age such as discoloration and significant loss of brightness.


Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for. This seems like the best way to determine if the unit has a flexview panel, unless the registry is incorrect, which I guess is a possibility.

[goofyGAguy]

This seems like the best way to determine if the unit has a flexview panel

If you go into Device Manager, it should state "Wide viewing angle & High density FlexView Display"