Best value machine for general office use

[tiorapatea]

I am beginning to look for a new (old) machine to replace my wife's T30. It still works, but it seems crazy to try to upgrade it when I look at the cost/benefit.

She uses it just for web browsing and general office tasks. Can't think of anything else she might want to do with it, even if she knew she could.

She really hates the T30, and the principal reason I think is that she wants an Apple Mac. She has an iphone 4, and has decided that everything Apple is just going to be easier to use. The second reason is that the T30 can appear slow while she browses the web. I think this is partly because she tends to open a lot of browser instances (Firefox) - not sure if it is worse than having multiple tabs - and also maintains a gargantuan Outlook 2003 inbox, thus chewing up her 1.25 GB RAM. (As an aside, she has her email with Google (own domain), and IMAP on Outlook 2003 is fairly broken, so I am thinking of moving her to Thunderbird on any new machine (or just Outlook 2010). Any thoughts?)

Anyway, I think she needs to stick with Microsoft Office, just because she is somewhat used to it, as am I. This is what has me worried about buying a Mac. I am reading that Office for Mac is really an ugly sister of Windows Office. Really, Word is all she uses, but Excel probably needs to be there too.

My feeling is that if I bump her up to any dual-core machine, stick in 4GB RAM, buy an 80GB SSD, and install Windows 7 64-bit, Office 2010, and Firefox 27 or whatever it will be by then, this should give a meaningful improvement in her experience.

One more thing: the Touchpad. This is what she uses, and I think the bigger the better for her purposes. I know my T60 has a tiny touchpad, whereas the newer ones are bigger and support more gestures. This is quite important.

I think, as this is a "desktop replacement" machine, I am looking at a T or R series, anywhere from T61 onwards (maybe even T60 but the 3GB RAM limit bothers me a bit, plus there is the tiny touchpad).

Budget is flexible, but I'm thinking 400 pounds or, say, $500 (allowing for cheaper prices in USA) for a second-hand ebay machine. This seems to point towards a T400 or R400 and an SSD upgrade, or maybe a T500/R500. I'm not too sure whether to go 14.1 or 15.4 inches on screen size, but high resolution would be nice since she currently has SXGA+ (1400x1050).

Things I don't know about: screen quality; hardware longevity (I know about the T61 nvidia thing); quality of finish; graphics support for Windows-7 acceleration; unknown unknowns. I'd be grateful for any pointers.

[ssd_thinkpad]

She really hates the T30, and the principal reason I think is that she wants an Apple Mac. She has an iphone 4, and has decided that everything Apple is just going to be easier to use. The second reason is that the T30 can appear slow while she browses the web.

Accept that your wive's idea of a computer may differ from your ideas and get her a mac. She will then be happy. Any mac of the last years should do fine. Get also a mac ms office, too.

I know girls who love their old thinkpads as they are reliable when they drop them, spill juice and coffee over them. Thinkpads just work. These girls don't have iPhones, though. If your wive is not comfortable with the T30 in general, the approach with the mac will work out much better.

Usually females like larger displays even more than males, so ask her whether she wants to have a big heavy computer or a smaller one with a smaller display. The price should not be so different.

And tell us here about how everything worked out

[dr_st]

It's a tough call. I agree with ssd_thinkpad that the right approach is letting users pick whatever is comfortable for them, and not try to force our own perception of "what's better" on them. In that regard, I would support buying a Mac for your wife.

However, I am also a strong advocate of the notion that anyone getting a Mac should also embrace MacOS as their primary operating system. Macs run Windows generally fine, but are handicapped both compared to Macs on MacOS and Windows-oriented PCs on Windows. In that sense, since it seems like your wife relies heavily on Windows applications, a Mac may not be ideal for her, even if she imagines it will be, and in any case it is advised for her to really ponder on it before going down that road.

Mac vs PC aside - T30 really is an ancient machine. I have one pretty active machine of that generation, and you really feel the sluggishness when opening heavy script/flash-burdened websites, not to mention lots of browser windows/tabs at once. There is no doubt that anything modern will be a vast improvement in user experience.

Regarding touchpads: T6x indeed have tiny ones, which were somewhat (IMO, insignificantly) enlarged in T400/500 generation, and far more so in T410/T420. The new T410 pad (also present in T400s) also has a texture to it. Some like it, some don't, and it appears to be removable and replaceable with a smooth texture sticker. I know modern touchpads support more gestures, but how much of it is hardware and how much is drivers/software - I don't know.

[underclocker]

She really hates the T30, and the principal reason I think is that she wants an Apple Mac. She has an iphone 4, and has decided that everything Apple is just going to be easier to use.

The solution is fairly obvious. I agree with the others, buy her a Mac. With VMWare Fusion or Parallels, you'll be able to run Windows / Windows apps seamlessly within OSX (with included BootCamp, you can run either OSX or Windows, alternately, but not at the same time).

The only sticking point is the budget, only the earliest MacBooks are in that price range (in the U.S.), and I'd really recommend at least a Core 2 Duo 2.26GHz or higher machine (one with PC3-8500 memory or better). For a good, complete unit in the U.S.

(Be careful of MacBook Air's with 2GB of RAM, memory can not be upgraded and 2GB isn't much.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regarding your initial question on "best value" ThinkPad, if you can deal with the low resolution HD displays, then the entry Edge models are fairly full featured and good values. Often they are on sale in the Lenovo outlet (U.S.) in the $400 range.

Alternately, the slightly used T410i, currently available in the forum marketplace for $500, is a fine used choice.

Realistically though, if your wife wants a MacBook, even an SSD-equipped T420s or W520 won't likely make her happy.

[kaede]

just to add office in mac also not that fast.maybe thats why its called microsoft office. thats what i heard from my friend. im not a mac user anyway. u can consider getting a docking station with external mouse and keyboard.

[tiorapatea]

Thanks to all for the advice - yes, I can see you are probably right, and I should just get her a Mac, but my concerns were: 1) budget ; 2) durability - no idea which Macs will last, but some do look flimsy; 3) running Microsoft Word on a Mac ; 4) trying to get her up to speed with OS X. On the other hand, she needs to make the transition from XP to Win7 anyway.

If we do go Thinkpad, it looks like maybe the T410 is a decent choice because of the larger Touchpad. I see here that there could be a solution to the wearing out of the textured surface on Thinkpads from T400s onwards. It seems as though there could be driver issues though on Windows installations.

What about graphics hardware and Windows 7? I have Win7 loaded on one of the spindles on my T60 and it seems ok even without WDDM 1.1 support for the ATI X1300. On the other hand, I don't use Win7 all that much on the machine. I even sorted out the Touchpad driver by installing the HP driver, which is a lot better than stock or the Synaptics Gesture Suite.

Are there any screen choices/issues I should be aware of in the 400/410/420 range?

Really looking for a keeper here, as you can tell by the fact the T30 is still going!

Edit: the external mouse/keyboard idea could possibly work, but she is used to just using the machine as is, and desk space is at quite a premium. Yes, I know that actually you can save desk space with a dock if you can put it underneath the desk, and that is certainly something I will bring up with my wife.

[Stan]

If you think a ThinkPad R400 might do the job then take a look here:-

http://www.bigpockets.co.uk/product.php?product=SOLV696


I'm sorely tempted myself.

[pianowizard]

2) durability - no idea which Macs will last, but some do look flimsy;

All of the current Macs are well built. The MacBook (without the "Pro") was kind of flimsy, but Apple no longer sells it.

3) running Microsoft Word on a Mac

Just a bit slower than Word on a PC, but still reasonably fast. Lots of my colleagues run Office on their Macs and they don't mind.

[underclocker]

Macs to seem to be very well built and feel solid. However, all current models are made from a very thin aluminum that scratches and dents very easily. It's hard to find one on eBay or Craigslist without dents. I suggest and use a hard shell, full cover plus palmrest protector.

I have an i5 MacBook Pro with both Office 2011 (Mac) and Office 2010 (Windows) via VMWare Fusion. Performance is excellent for both, not an issue. Windows XP and Windows 7 performance is excellent.

I also briefly had an OWC Mecury SSD in the MacBook. Performance was incredible, basically, instantaneous. The MacBook booted up in 15 seconds flat.

[bill bolton]

yes, I can see you are probably right, and I should just get her a mac....

Be prepared for a world of hurt when things dont work as expected.

The Apple world is quite locked down and things that are easy to troubleshoot/remedy on Windows platforms can be simply unfixable with Apple platforms unless you go into jailbreak territory, and that's a whole other minefield in itself.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[ssd_thinkpad]

Be prepared for a world of hurt when things dont work as expected.

In the Apple world you have to accept that something does not work. I used apples and I prefer windows where things are not that beautiful but you can do so much more - some things are more complicated but for me everything is faster - and much cheaper.

You can buy shoes to be comfortable and you can buy shoes to look good. The same goes for notebooks. I don't think every woman buys shoes just for walking comfortable, looking good is also important. If you want to look good with a notebook and prefer an apple computer for this day - go with the apple! If the next day a thinkpad makes you look more serious - take a thinkpad, too! New lenovos are today after coupons available at the price of two good pair of shoes, so no one should take everything too serious

[ThinkRob]

I tend to agree with the sentiments above:

Mac OS X is great if you have the *exact* use cases that it is designed for. As soon as your desired usage veers outside of the fairly narrowly-defined set of usage scenarios, you are in for tons of fun. You can usually get it to work the way you want, but not necessarily cheaply or easily.

Speaking somewhat more generally, UX-wise, I'd say this: with Mac OS X, peak efficiency comes from re-training yourself to interact with your computer in only the ways that Apple has optimized their UI/workflow for. With Windows/Linux, peak efficiency can come from customizing your UI/workflow to feel more like a natural extension of yourself. They're both means to an end, but I tend to be a cranky old curmudgeon and choose the option that doesn't force me to frequently change my habits to fit someone else's designs.

[tiorapatea]

Wow, thanks guys, lots of very useful perspective here, I really appreciate it.

I too am a very curmudgeonly, but my wife is not. The trouble is, I tend to be the one who has to figure out all the issues, and I don't really want to have to do that on a platform I have not chosen. On the other hand, if she asks nicely ...

Meanwhile, my mother-in-law is visiting us for a few weeks, and has come armed with an ipad. If my wife wants one of those, she can *expletives deleted*. (Only joking)

[underclocker]

Oh, you can bet she'll want one of those. Nearly 50 million wanted them so badly that they have already picked on up. (Me included.)

My advice to you, buy her the entry level MacBook Pro (13" LCD with i5 CPU) from Micro Center. They've been selling it for $200 off retail since it came out. At $999, it's less than the education discount on that model. It is fast and current. It's also the best value, even 3 year old MacBook Aluminum models still sell for $800 in mint condition.

I'd also buy her an Apple iPad (1st Generation) 16GB refurb., direct from Apple for about $359 (when in stock). (I see you're in UK, so you'll need a US friend or a visit, too!)

Trifecta! iPhone, MacBook, iPad!

She'll be happy, you'll be happy.

[sir_synthsalot]

Anyway, I think she needs to stick with Microsoft Office, just because she is somewhat used to it, as am I. This is what has me worried about buying a Mac. I am reading that Office for Mac is really an ugly sister of Windows Office. Really, Word is all she uses, but Excel probably needs to be there too.

Office for Mac doesn't have as nice of an interface, but all the functionality seems to be there. 2008 doesn't have a ribbon interface which is my main dislike, although it looks like they added it in 2011.

I wonder if this is part of the reason Apple is so popular, and has such fierce followers. People upgrade from something like a T30, and think it's so much better because it's the Apple magic.

[tiorapatea]

UPDATE:

I ended up getting her a T520 with the 1080P screen from a forum member for $750 in January 2012, which from my perspective has been a great buy, and is still going strong.

One issue is the wide gamut screen is a pain to deal with, because a lot of software just isn't colour managed, even image-focused stuff such as Irfanview, and Adobe Flash video. Firefox is great though.

My wife's Apple lust has been assuaged with an iphone 5S and an iPad Air 2, so everyone is happy. I think it might be time to upgrade the 5S to a 6S, although part of me wonders what Apple has in store for next year to make everyone upgrade again. I wonder if they will drop the Home Button because of Force Touch, allowing for a much better screen-to-body ratio.

[hhhd1]

A quick way to deal with T520 extra colors is to decrease saturation between -20 and -30, in intel graphics control panel (intel graphics properties).

[tiorapatea]

A quick way to deal with T520 extra colors is to decrease saturation between -20 and -30, in intel graphics control panel (intel graphics properties).

That doesn't seem like a great idea, though, because surely the goal should be to display colours accurately, and I don't think you get to sRGB from Adobe RGB by just taking an axe to saturation.

Firefox gets things right anyway (at least, if you enable colour management and set up a decent profile for your wide gamut monitor), except when relying on the Flash plugin. Chrome has flirted with this also, but I think there have been regressions lately.

I recommend selecting a muted wallpaper for the Windows desktop, which isn't colour-managed, at least not in Windows 7 or 8 AFAIK.

[hhhd1]

what i am suggesting is not an alternative to having correct color calibration, but for general office usage where color accuracy is not that important, .. where people are ok with 60 percent saturation of the sRGB anyway , killing of the saturation is enough.

by default, the extra saturated colors could look too shiny, and might cause strain for long duration, this varies allot between different people though.

this is more of a 'quick fix' , rather than a complete solution.

[Puppy]

Do you need to stick with classic 7-row keyboard layout ? If not, wait few months for E560 that is the first "value" ThinkPad with 15.6" FHD IPS display. L540 FHD is also good value except the horrible clickpad. Or better L450 with 14" FHD IPS and normal trackpoint buttons if the smaller size is acceptable.

If you can live without trackpoint, Acer V15 is very good value. Acer have currently better quality than any Lenovo IdeaPad models.

As for MacBook ... where is the keyboard ?

[Hans Gruber]

Here is my short list of value thinkpads. T61/T500/T410. I include the T500 because I like the 15.4" screen 16:10 and resolution. I am not big on the 1920x1080 screens only because I think the 1680x1050 resolution is plenty. On the T510 and newer the 1920x1080 makes good sense because of the 16x9 format.

[ac12]

I'm glad you got her something that she likes.
I'm still trying to limp along one of my old T23s. I just hate to trash something that works. But the OS, software and the web have become too much for the old T23. So it only runs a few basic things.

BTW, about color calibration and monitors. Most people do not look at photos all day long, unless that is your profession. A WORD or EXCEL screen and many web sites are mostly WHITE. When I calibrated my monitor, I had to lower the white level of my monitor to a level that I could stand looking at the screen. At the calibration level, it felt like I was looking at a light bulb, which in a sense I was/am.
You can always adjust up for when you/she is dealing with photos.