Replacement batteries - genuine or not?

[VanZan]

I'm looking at getting a few replacement batteries. I've looked at eBay and the genuine batteries seem to be twice as expensive as the unofficial ones. Could someone please tell me if there is a substantial difference? Anywhere besides eBay to pick them up?

Thank you, VZ.

[precip9]

You'll get a lot of opinions on this.

The problems with Lenovo replacement batteries on eBay are

1. They have been on the shelf for years. Lithium batteries die on the shelf -- if stored at room temperature. A "new" battery, is not new in the sense of other, durable parts of a laptop such as screens, motherboards, keyboards,etc. To avoid shelf death, I store my batteries in a freezer at 13F.

2. The cells in Lenovo batteries were historically sourced from Samsung. In the period of Thinkpad classics, Samsung cells were noticeably inferior to Sony.

3. Some Lenovo batteries had firmware problems that caused them to suddenly die.

I buy third party batteries. While they are not up to the quality of a really, really *new* Lenovo battery, they cost so much less, I prefer to measure capacity in watt-hours/$. A good 3rd party battery typically costs 1/8 the cost of a NEW battery purchased from Lenovo.

I've never had a sudden failure, although others have. Here it is important to realize that China is a huge place. There is no such thing as THE manufacturer of 3rd party batteries. There are many. If you find one you like, stick with it.

[VanZan]

Oh that's great...I can buy the cheap ones and not feel er.. cheap! Thanks.

[dr_st]

2. The cells in Lenovo batteries were historically sourced from Samsung. In the period of Thinkpad classics, Samsung cells were noticeably inferior to Sony.

Really? I have never seen a Lenovo battery that claimed Samsung cells. For late IBM / early Lenovo models I've only seen Panasonic, Sanyo and Sony, with Panasonic being clearly superior, and the other two roughly on par with each other. Later Lenovos added LGC as a battery vendor, and as Panasonic and Sanyo merged their battery business, it appears that all Panasonics were replaced by Sanyos, although they appear to perform more like old Panasonics than old Sanyos in terms of longevity.

[precip9]

You're right, I had the brand name mixed!

As far as your observation that Sony and Sanyo were together inferior to Panasonic, I question. Sony invented the 18650 "jelly-roll" cell, still the most common form factor where lithium polymer has not taken over.

Prior to recent times, I would put Sony and Panasonic at the top, with Sanyo associated with low-cycle count complaints.

[RealBlackStuff]

My experience with Thinkpad batteries (mostly for T4x and T6x) is, that every single Panasonic I ever got (some by the box-load) is still alive and kicking, even those that were made in 2006/2007.
I still have about 12 lying around here.
Sanyo never lived that long, and Sony was only little better, but Sony were also the most dangerous, having the most of the recalls.

[dr_st]

My personal experience with Sony batteries is quite limited - I think only one of my / family's Thinkpads was shipped with a Sony battery from the factory. That battery did not age so well. I think that by age 3-4 years it already lost more than 50% of its capacity.

Problem is - it is difficult to gauge precisely, since the battery gauge itself shows full capacity to be 100% of the design capacity, as if it has not degraded one bit. That, of course, is false, and it is obvious during use as the battery suddenly drops from anywhere between 40% and 60% to 5% or less.

Some limited collective experience data gathered from these forums seemed to suggest that both behaviors are typical of Sony batteries. Sanyos lose just as much capacity (if not more) over comparable time periods, but at least their gauges accurately reflect it, so you know what to expect.

It has also been my observation (which is yet again limited) that Sony batteries more frequently figured in various "recalls" through the years.

Edit: looks like RBS has very similar experience to mine.

[rkawakami]

When using non-genuine batteries you may also have to deal with the laptop saying that you have an unapproved battery, although there's ways to get around it.

[exTPfan]

It's difficult to buy a good battery for an old TP. "Genuine" batteries may not be and, in any case, are old. Very cheap batteries last 1 month (long enough to get positive reviews) and then die. Less cheap batteries with a 1 year warranty last 12 months and a day.
Recently I bought a T42 battery from Battery Plus for $96 --- so far looks good.

[precip9]

It's difficult to buy a good battery for an old TP. "Genuine" batteries may not be and, in any case, are old. Very cheap batteries last 1 month (long enough to get positive reviews) and then die. Less cheap batteries with a 1 year warranty last 12 months and a day.
Recently I bought a T42 battery from Battery Plus for $96 --- so far looks good.

Price is not a guide. The same units are sold at varying prices, to exploit the thought of some users that "you get what you pay for." There is no correlation between the price and the quality -- although it is certainly true that some are better than others.

A few years back, some of us discovered that some X61 batteries had a case that would not allow the laptop to fit in the Ultrabase. The kind of economy of engineering that results in the failure to check for fit arouses suspicion. Perhaps someone can report some experience with them.

So one guide is, if the case does not fit well, don't buy any more. Q/C on the injection molded case implies a concern for the user, which should extend to other areas, such as cell construction.

At the opposite extreme, a China maker devised a novel solution to engineering an X61 tablet battery. The original Lenovo batteries used rectangular, "prismatic cells" made by Panasonic, and could not be duplicated. So the China maker devised a new case that projects about 1/2" further out the back. An added benefit is that the cells are effectively insulated from the heat of the laptop, operating at ambient temperature. This greatly increases the life of any lithium cell.

I've been using cheap batteries for years, and none have failed yet.

[brchan]

Also, be aware that some aftermarket batteries may throttle the processor at random times. I experienced this on 1 of the 3 non-oem batteries I got for a few of my thinkpads. The issue was not heat related.

[ajkula66]

You'll get a lot of opinions on this.

Definitely.

The problems with Lenovo replacement batteries on eBay are

1. They have been on the shelf for years.

I would argue that this holds true for T4x/R5x and older batteries. However, the batteries found in T6x generations were re-used in T400/500 and W500 systems and "fresh" examples dating from 2014 or so can still be obtained.

As for the companies that made batteries for ThinkPads, Panasonic is a clear winner. T43p that I'm typing this on sports a 9-cell dated 2007-04-23 with the date of first use being 2007-07. After 720 cycles, it still shows as "green" in Power Manager, holding 47.72 out of 77.75 design capacity. I also have a couple of A3x series Panasonic batteries which date from 2002, and all hold over 50%, although showing a "yellow" condition. Examples built by Sony and Sanyo could never come close to this type of longevity, and I've gone through hundreds - possibly thousands - from each manufacturer over the past 12-13 years.

[micrex22]

Lenovo still directly sells T6x batteries last I checked on their website (for a small large fortune, of course).

Using counterfeit batteries can lead to explosions and damage to the laptops or to your person. It'd make more sense to re-cell a genuine battery with quality components.

[precip9]

Lenovo still directly sells T6x batteries last I checked on their website (for a small large fortune, of course).

Using counterfeit batteries can lead to explosions and damage to the laptops or to your person. It'd make more sense to re-cell a genuine battery with quality components.

A Google search of laptop fires does not indicate that 3rd party batteries are more dangerous. A Google search retrieves a single case of a 3rd party battery recall: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2420729,00.asp

And there is not a single report of a laptop explosion resulting from an eBay 3rd party laptop battery. There are reports of other devices with lithium batteries catching fire: http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic ... -exploding
But not a single laptop battery.

Between 2001 and 2005, top-tier cell makers repeatedly increased power density, by reducing the thickness of the electrodes and inter-electrode spacing. The 3rd party makers were unable to do this, which is why they have less initial capacity than "genuine" packs. But this is why most battery fires occurred after 2004.

Lithium batteries are not fail-safe. But given the numerous, repeated recalls of batteries by name-brands, and the rarity of 3rd party battery reports, it can't be asserted that they are more dangerous. On the other hand, name-brands, with extreme emphasis on power density, push margins to the limit.

[rkawakami]

I think you missed this one: http://www.notebookreview.com/news/thin ... nevitable/

Edit: Just re-read your post. If you are saying there's been no incidents of third party batteries catching fire then you may be right. The story I quoted was not specific on what kind of battery caught fire.

[precip9]

I think you missed this one: http://www.notebookreview.com/news/thin ... nevitable/

Edit: Just re-read your post. If you are saying there's been no incidents of third party batteries catching fire then you may be right. The story I quoted was not specific on what kind of battery caught fire.

We can't prove that an eBay 3rd party battery hasn't exploded somewhere. But since nothing shows up in the searches, it doesn't make sense to label them as *particularly* dangerous. Some things that common sense says are true, aren't.

[VanZan]

I found this item listing on eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141264738806? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Now I realise it's a Chinese seller and it looks way too good to be true but they do have a decent feedback score. What does worry me is that the feedback is private and I can't see what positive feedback is for the particular item I want (have no idea why eBay allows such practice).

[mpcook]

I found this item listing on eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141264738806? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Now I realise it's a Chinese seller and it looks way too good to be true but they do have a decent feedback score. What does worry me is that the feedback is private and I can't see what positive feedback is for the particular item I want (have no idea why eBay allows such practice).

Personally, I would stay away from generic batteries. My experience has not been very good over the years. This one you found on eBay is generic, although they show an image of a Lenovo battery which would make me leery of doing business with them.

[VanZan]

Can I ask please how you know it's generic? The picture, as you said, is of a genuine Lenovo battery and the description says "Genuine Original"....surely if they were misleading people then their feedback would be awful?

:edit: Ahhh it's says "generic" in the item specifics!!! Tricky feckers!

[VanZan]

I don't know what to do so....is there anywhere still selling these famed Panasonic thinkpad batteries? Can't find them on eBay...I need batteries for a T410, T420 and X220 (possibly for a X200 that I have for sale and the worn battery is putting buyers off).

[mpcook]

I don't know what to do so....is there anywhere still selling these famed Panasonic thinkpad batteries? Can't find them on eBay...I need batteries for a T410, T420 and X220 (possibly for a X200 that I have for sale and the worn battery is putting buyers off).

I have bought X220/X230 batteries on Amazon which were genuine Lenovo (rather than just "genuine batteries").

[precip9]

I found this item listing on eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141264738806? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Now I realise it's a Chinese seller and it looks way too good to be true but they do have a decent feedback score. What does worry me is that the feedback is private and I can't see what positive feedback is for the particular item I want (have no idea why eBay allows such practice).

It almost has to be a forgery. It costs about 1/6 the same item purchased through a Lenovo authorized channel.

In the photo, it looks exactly like the Lenovo product. The power-brick forgery business relies on this kind of attention to external detail. If you purchase through eBay a "Lenovo OEM power supply", it inevitably is of dangerously inferior quality. If instead, you buy a 3rd party power brick from Anker or PWR+, you get a good quality product. The appearance of the Lenovo brand on something priced like a forgery is a very, very bad sign. There is no reason why this should be different with batteries.

The forgers are very good at exploiting the gullible buyer. Pay no attention to the feedback score, because the vast majority of buyers are incapable of measuring battery performance.

Something like this occurred when I bought a pen for a Samsung Galaxy Note 4 through Amazon. The buyers were happy with the product. I conducted detailed tests, and discovered it was a forgery. See https://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-re ... centReview