What after classic Thinkpads?

[nachetb]

Hey guys. I think this is a question most of us have made to ourselves at some point and it is, what laptops should we buy once classic thinkpads grow too old? Id say first gen lenovo laptops (T60/X61, X60/X61) will be somewhat decently usable for another 10-15 years (yes, you read right, thats considering you make the right upgrades for it, chose the right os and the right tasks you want it for). Having said that, its obvious that the future is uncertain and new technologies or demands could arrive for laptops in the upcoming years (for example, usb c making any other kind of port obsolete and hard to find compatible hardware). I thought about pointing out the main characteristics of classic thinkpads that I think most of us love and what some replacements for that would be. Feel free to share your thoughts

1. Upgradability. This is one of the best things about old thinkpads, being able to grab a 10 year old machine, add new updated hardware and components and making it work smoothly. Sadly a big part of the market is moving into soldered components, which is quite sad. Its both more expensive and in essence, planned obsolescence. However, a lot of models are still made with socketed components (except cpus, which you could argue ultrabook cpus offer better temps and battery life, yeah old school socketed cpus were cool but that is one thing that looks its truly not coming back). Some brands that may offer socketed components would be the more midrange machines, HP, Asus, Acer, Huaweii... (I hope Ryzen integrated graphics ram demands bring back socketed rams for a while). Newer thinkpads are moving into a soldered path, which makes them a nono in this aspect.

2. Keyboard. Classic membrane tactile keyboards are pretty much out of sight. Id say enterprise laptops (and gaming) still own the best keyboards, with at least somewhat of a decent tactile feel to them. So thinkpads, hp and dell would still be a good choice.

3. Build quality. This is arguable, but I think what we mostly like about classic thinkpads is that theyre durable, non fancy, but quality feeling. Again, id say enterprise laptops (specially HP elitebooks) still have some of those qualities, id rank them from quality feel 1. HP 2. Thinkpads 3. Dell, ofc these three depend on model, but as a general guideline.

4. Ports. Again, no surprise, but enterprise laptops still hold the most ammount of ports, however depending on the commercial laptops it can also have a nice port selection.

5. The x factor. The mix of all of the previous points, the feeling that the pc is a machine made to last and made to work in it, not to look pretty or appeal the masses. Sadly this is the point where I cant find any laptop in the market the hits all the previous points, and thus feels superior to any old classic thinkpad.

Id love to listen to your opinions

[TPFanatic]

I agree the classic units will still be usable for a long time thanks to accommodating 8GB RAM and SATA SSDs, although I personally prefer having moved on to a modded Ivy Bridge ThinkPads. I am more productive with a QHD screen, the modern IPS screen is unbeatable, and the speed increase particularly for web content is noticeable and appreciated.

The current future for classic ThinkPads has IMO four ways to go with pros and cons each:

1. Speccing up Classic "Golden Age" ThinkPads (X61/s/Tablet, X201/s/Tablet, T61/p, FrankenPad, T410/s, T/W500)
+ Native 7 row keyboard
+ 4:3 or 16:10 screen compatibility
+ 8GB RAM potential
+ Core 2 Quad potential (select models, with mods)
+ Low cost starting well under $100 for a basic config
- Lack of modern ports
- Difficult mods (LED, Quads)
- Old screens
- Slow

2. Modding Ivy Bridge ThinkPads (X230/Tablet, T430/s, T/W530)
+ 7 row keyboard compatibility
+ IPS screen mods (12"/13" FHD, QHD; 14" FHD, QHD; 15" FHD) (Easy, Plug and Play excepting 12")
+ USB 3.0
+ 16GB RAM potential
+ Quad core potential
+ Low cost: at least the price of the base computer and a classic keyboard, amounting to just below $100 for a basic config
+ Parts availability
- Lack of modern ports (Thunderbolt, USC C)
- Screen mods are expensive

3. 51nb ThinkPads
+ 7 row keyboard
+ 4:3, 16:10, and 3:2 screen compatibility
+ Modern chipsets and ports
- High price starting closer to $1000 than $100
- Low parts availability from custom work
- Drivers are in development, support may be abandoned

4. T480/T25 FrankenPad
+ 7 row keyboard
+ Many screen mods available (FHD, QHD, UHD)
+ Modern chipset and ports
- High cost starting closer to $1000 than $100
- Custom work required

[atagunov]

Classic keyboard: TPFanatic, well said, nothing to add.
Modern kbd: P53, P57, maybe P1/X1E?

CPU soldered in all of P53/P57/P1/X1E: -
CPU is often good: +

P53/P73
wide chiclet kbd: -
classic thick body
lots of ports

P1/X1E (almost twins)
narrow chiclet kbd: +
ports are still good
two NVM.e disks/two RAM sticks, none soldered in

P.S. some people carry Thinkpad + a compact mech kbd
This kind of folks love to post photos on Reddit

[dr_st]

Everything is fine with modern Thinkpads. The only deal-breaker (if it's important to you, like it is to me) is the 7-row keyboard layout, which made a little drive-by in Thinkpad 25, then disappeared again.

Personally, if they made one such machine every 5 years, it would be fine by me, but I hope for a more lasting options. Still, at this point, Lenovo management can't recognize the potential and just wants to be lazy in this aspect. Maybe all visionaries retired from the keyboard department, who knows. It can change eventually if customers are vocal about it. So far it seems it's just me.

The only other annoying thing is non-removable batteries. Most other things are either overrated (upgradability, legacy ports) or not really bad (build quality).

[kfzhu1229]

Id say first gen lenovo laptops (T60/X61, X60/X61) will be somewhat decently usable for another 10-15 years (yes, you read right, thats considering you make the right upgrades for it, chose the right os and the right tasks you want it for).

Well that is certainly arrangeable with a T61 for maybe another 5 years, but I imagine it would be more and more painful and more expensive to use them for more than that. On a X60/X61 though, what might doom it is the lack of CPU upgradability. If you are stuck with a Core solo on your X60, it is quite unfortunate and a T61 with a X9000 (not even a quad core modded one) will run circles around it.
But the bigger problem in my opinion is the cost of maintaining such a machine when it gets too old. Maintaining it so that it would work for casual tasks such as retro uses is not that bad. But for daily driver though, after like 10 more years when these machines are like 20-25 years old, many more problems will arise (motherboard instability, plastics cracking, screen degrading, etc.) that in my opinion kind of extinguishes the point of using them for them being reliable dependable daily drivers. Sure you can keep on replacing the components, but then from a cost perspective there is a point where it is just not worth it to keep them working at a daily driver kind of condition. And this is all assuming that accidents didn't happen. If you end up dropping a 20 year old laptop for example, it could very well be instant death sentence for it.

[MikalE]

I agree the classic units will still be usable for a long time thanks to accommodating 8GB RAM and SATA SSDs, although I personally prefer having moved on to a modded Ivy Bridge ThinkPads. I am more productive with a QHD screen, the modern IPS screen is unbeatable, and the speed increase particularly for web content is noticeable and appreciated.

The current future for classic ThinkPads has IMO four ways to go with pros and cons each:

1. Speccing up Classic "Golden Age" ThinkPads (X61/s/Tablet, X201/s/Tablet, T61/p, FrankenPad, T410/s, T/W500)
+ Native 7 row keyboard
+ 4:3 or 16:10 screen compatibility
+ 8GB RAM potential
+ Core 2 Quad potential (select models, with mods)
+ Low cost starting well under $100 for a basic config
- Lack of modern ports
- Difficult mods (LED, Quads)
- Old screens
- Slow

2. Modding Ivy Bridge ThinkPads (X230/Tablet, T430/s, T/W530)
+ 7 row keyboard compatibility
+ IPS screen mods (12"/13" FHD, QHD; 14" FHD, QHD; 15" FHD) (Easy, Plug and Play excepting 12")
+ USB 3.0
+ 16GB RAM potential
+ Quad core potential
+ Low cost: at least the price of the base computer and a classic keyboard, amounting to just below $100 for a basic config
+ Parts availability
- Lack of modern ports (Thunderbolt, USC C)
- Screen mods are expensive

3. 51nb ThinkPads
+ 7 row keyboard
+ 4:3, 16:10, and 3:2 screen compatibility
+ Modern chipsets and ports
- High price starting closer to $1000 than $100
- Low parts availability from custom work
- Drivers are in development, support may be abandoned

4. T480/T25 FrankenPad
+ 7 row keyboard
+ Many screen mods available (FHD, QHD, UHD)
+ Modern chipset and ports
- High cost starting closer to $1000 than $100
- Custom work required

You've left out the W/T520 series that is capable of 16GB of RAM and very fast for their day i7 QM processors. And they still retain the 7-rôw keyboard.

They still make for daily drivers that are a lot better than cheaper new offerings from the majors.

[TPFanatic]

Yes you're right about them, they are strong machines. I drew the line at Ivy Bridge since by then everything has USB 3.0. W520 and W510 have it, but the T-series doesn't until T530. Also the Ivys are simply the end of the line for the 7 row.

I daily a T420 myself, with QHD and 16GB it's a contender (I went back to i5 2520m since I couldn't keep the 2630QM cool). I don't need USB 3.0 personally, I make use of eSATA for mass storage transfers.

[shawross]

The majority of us have been struggling with this for 5 - 10 years and mainly because of something called a trackpoint.
5nb Thinkpads haven't really worked out IMO. They could improve but they seem unreliable and expensive.

I was disappointed with the T25 but knowing Lenovo we were lucky to even get that.


This is why I purchased 2 cheap X220s a couple of years ago and coupled with a series 3 dock they offer hope for the future. Reinforcing what MikalE stated about the Sandy Bridge units.
Generally though it really all depends on your usage and requirements. For home/travelling use my X301 has still enough power for most things I do.

[kfzhu1229]

Well I can't really get myself to use any of those smaller laptops because the screen quality simply isn't there and I am not interested in going out of my way to fit a new screen in that would otherwise not work just to have better display quality.
This is why I've always stuck with 15"/15.4"/15.6" laptops with good looking screens out of the factory.

[MikalE]

Can't argue with that. One reason I've never owned a 14" laptop is because of the screen size. I can't hardly stand to use my 10" Lenovo tablet because of the small screen.

[cadillacmike68]

The old limit going back for me is T61. I don't do R/X/Z series, just T series, and W series going forward. Getting one to 8GB is pricey, but I have 5 set up like that and a dozen total so I'll be able to keep using them for quite a while. Up to T/W 530 is the latest I have and plan to have for a while. I have enough hi capacity HDDs to last forever as well.

At home / office I always use a 22" and / or 24" external monitor so the screen size is immaterial. For travel use I use 15" WS models. The 14s are just to small for me to read without extreme eye strain. Here's is where I have an issue. The T/W500 still have 16:10, as do the T/W510, but I don't have any of those. But the T/W530 (I do not have any T/W520s) have 16:9 and whenever I use either of them, the difference is quite noticeable (and annoying). I'm not as concerned about the 6 vs 7 row keyboard, but the T/W 530 keyboards, while usable, are not as good ad the x520 and older series. Also, the T/W510 is the last ones to have a dock with an ultrabay.

The T/W440 / 540 have that awful klunkpad, I have worked on a T440p, and can't stand it, abd they have a different AC adapter as well, complicating spares interchangeability.

The bigger issue I see is an OS. I'm not really into linix, at least not yet. Did it once way back, and might again some day. So windoze (or winblows) is what's running. I can run W7pro on any of these forever, but eventually newer software programs will not run on W7 because of publisher arrogance. Like the tax sw bozos and those dingbats at intuiit. These T61 thru T/W530 will also run W10 but with all the issues that brings. That T440p I worked on for someone got auto forced updated to w10 2004 and the integrated camera was causing BSODs whenever it was activated. The owner is completely computer illiterate, so I dug out the issue and was able to find an updated driver, but our older machines aren't going to get updated drivers. I neither need or want those issues on my machines.

[atagunov]

I have enough hi capacity HDDs to last forever as well

Hey Mike, do yourself and invest into some Samsung EVO 860-s

The bigger issue I see is an OS. I'm not really into linix
T61 thru T/W530 will also run W10 but with all the issues that brings
... T440p ... w10 2004 and the integrated camera was causing BSODs whenever it was activated

A little unexpected but still possible option is to run modern Windows in a VM on an old Thinkpad running Linux. This is what I'm doing with a T520: 16Gb RAM, latest Ubuntu, KVM VM. I'm passing through my 2nd USB controller (lower port on left side, got a separate usb hub connected with external audio card - similar to USB Jabra and a webcam) to the VM as a PCI device to have good sound and smooth video in video calls. I'm fairly pleased with it. It's a usable setup. You should also be able to pass through your video card if 3D is required.

[nachetb]

Id say first gen lenovo laptops (T60/X61, X60/X61) will be somewhat decently usable for another 10-15 years (yes, you read right, thats considering you make the right upgrades for it, chose the right os and the right tasks you want it for).

Well that is certainly arrangeable with a T61 for maybe another 5 years, but I imagine it would be more and more painful and more expensive to use them for more than that. On a X60/X61 though, what might doom it is the lack of CPU upgradability. If you are stuck with a Core solo on your X60, it is quite unfortunate and a T61 with a X9000 (not even a quad core modded one) will run circles around it.
But the bigger problem in my opinion is the cost of maintaining such a machine when it gets too old. Maintaining it so that it would work for casual tasks such as retro uses is not that bad. But for daily driver though, after like 10 more years when these machines are like 20-25 years old, many more problems will arise (motherboard instability, plastics cracking, screen degrading, etc.) that in my opinion kind of extinguishes the point of using them for them being reliable dependable daily drivers. Sure you can keep on replacing the components, but then from a cost perspective there is a point where it is just not worth it to keep them working at a daily driver kind of condition. And this is all assuming that accidents didn't happen. If you end up dropping a 20 year old laptop for example, it could very well be instant death sentence for it.

Yeah, Im definetely not talking about reliable daily driver use. In that case, as you said, maybe 5 more years for the T60 and T61, and thats stretching it too much (screen resolution really kills web browsing on certain sites). Theyre also definetely not the best performance/dollar. I meant for more hobby-like use, ofc computers this old arent a "logical" buy, theyre gonna fail and be more expensive to repair than a more modern system like a t430 or t440p. In my case I use my x61 as a tablet, pack it on my back pack for certain kind of bus travels, use it for opening pdfs on the library and using office suite... You know, the kind of things you would use a tablet for, nothing too extreme but better than just having a phone.

In this case I mentioned I think Ill be able to use this x61 pretty much for as long as its hardware lasts, since pdfs and text files wont become anything that this laptop cant handle in next 15+ years?

[nachetb]

The old limit going back for me is T61. I don't do R/X/Z series, just T series, and W series going forward. Getting one to 8GB is pricey, but I have 5 set up like that and a dozen total so I'll be able to keep using them for quite a while. Up to T/W 530 is the latest I have and plan to have for a while. I have enough hi capacity HDDs to last forever as well.

At home / office I always use a 22" and / or 24" external monitor so the screen size is immaterial. For travel use I use 15" WS models. The 14s are just to small for me to read without extreme eye strain. Here's is where I have an issue. The T/W500 still have 16:10, as do the T/W510, but I don't have any of those. But the T/W530 (I do not have any T/W520s) have 16:9 and whenever I use either of them, the difference is quite noticeable (and annoying). I'm not as concerned about the 6 vs 7 row keyboard, but the T/W 530 keyboards, while usable, are not as good ad the x520 and older series. Also, the T/W510 is the last ones to have a dock with an ultrabay.

The T/W440 / 540 have that awful klunkpad, I have worked on a T440p, and can't stand it, abd they have a different AC adapter as well, complicating spares interchangeability.

The bigger issue I see is an OS. I'm not really into linix, at least not yet. Did it once way back, and might again some day. So windoze (or winblows) is what's running. I can run W7pro on any of these forever, but eventually newer software programs will not run on W7 because of publisher arrogance. Like the tax sw bozos and those dingbats at intuiit. These T61 thru T/W530 will also run W10 but with all the issues that brings. That T440p I worked on for someone got auto forced updated to w10 2004 and the integrated camera was causing BSODs whenever it was activated. The owner is completely computer illiterate, so I dug out the issue and was able to find an updated driver, but our older machines aren't going to get updated drivers. I neither need or want those issues on my machines.

Woah, 12 T61? Thats my dream hahah, to have enough working Thinkpads to keep pulling them out if they die on me.

Also if you have so many thinkpads try Linux in one of them, or install it in a hardrive in the cd bay of your main machine. It runs extremely well on Thinkpads, and its just something to get used to, a lot of things are actually eassier and simpler in Linux

[kfzhu1229]

Yeah, Im definetely not talking about reliable daily driver use. In that case, as you said, maybe 5 more years for the T60 and T61, and thats stretching it too much (screen resolution really kills web browsing on certain sites). Theyre also definetely not the best performance/dollar. I meant for more hobby-like use, ofc computers this old arent a "logical" buy, theyre gonna fail and be more expensive to repair than a more modern system like a t430 or t440p. In my case I use my x61 as a tablet, pack it on my back pack for certain kind of bus travels, use it for opening pdfs on the library and using office suite... You know, the kind of things you would use a tablet for, nothing too extreme but better than just having a phone.

In this case I mentioned I think Ill be able to use this x61 pretty much for as long as its hardware lasts, since pdfs and text files wont become anything that this laptop cant handle in next 15+ years?

Oh so that's what you mean, to cater for retro-ish experiences. In that case yes these should last another 10-15 years with careful use. My oldest laptops that didn't receive any special long term care are the ThinkPad 600 from 1998 and the Dell Latitude CP from 1997. The 600's structural condition is a country mile better than the CP (The 600 has zero cracks while the CP has some dozens of cracks superglued together and my special care to the hinges so the lid does not break) but the CP motherboard is far more reliable (after I have reseated the CPU) with no crashes (if the RAM door isn't pushed in, knocking off the EDO DIMMs, because of flimsy RAM door) and no blinking cursor hangs whatsoever. And the 1997 battery in the CP still holds 45 minutes of charge!
So if these things can do it, so can the T/X6x, so long as yours isn't plagued by the GPU death! But I have a feeling that the plastics on these things are gonna fare closer to the Latitude CP than the ThinkPad 600.
But perhaps the larger power hungry machines don't last as long unfortunately (That might include power hungry T61p boards with the FX 540M, but we'll see). I've dealt with a number of dead A30 and A31 motherboards and have a 770ED totally die on me.
I can't tolerate doing text files and pdfs on that puny screen with that display quality, it strains my eyes! For those I can only do them on the 15"/15.4"/15.6" models with a minimum of SXGA+/WSXGA+/HD+ resolution so the screen is one of the high contrast high viewing angles ones.

Woah, 12 T61? Thats my dream hahah, to have enough working Thinkpads to keep pulling them out if they die on me.

Woah in my opinion 12 is just too much, unless you plan to give some away to friends and families over time. Maintaining these many of these machines is eventually going to be a chore, unless you only care about the functionality of only a couple of them.

[unixed]

The T/W500 still have 16:10, as do the T/W510, but I don't have any of those.

The T410 is 16:10 but the W510 is 16:9, unfortunately. If that wasn't the case I would have, by hook or by crook, put a quad-core W510 planar in a 15.0" T60 .

Well I can't really get myself to use any of those smaller laptops because the screen quality simply isn't there and I am not interested in going out of my way to fit a new screen in that would otherwise not work just to have better display quality.
This is why I've always stuck with 15"/15.4"/15.6" laptops with good looking screens out of the factory.

Although those are all 15" laptops they are quite different because of the aspect ratio. Comparing them to the *60 series the 15.4" 16:10 has the approximate height of the 14.1" T60 while the 15.6" 16:9 is closest in height to the 12.1" X60. From this perspective when you run a 15.6" 16:9 laptop you're really using a 12.1" X60 with updated electronics and such a large footprint it negates the advantages of using an X60. Okay, a 12.75" X60. Of course the same is true of the more usable *61 series if a 15.0" T61 is taken as a member of the T601 frankenpad family.

Taking the augmented *61 series as the epitomy of the classic units we can characterize them as user-servicable computers with a user-centric human-machine interface -- we communicate with it via the keyboard, it responds via the screen, we can replace the parts most likely to wear out.
Then as you traverse the newer series the chipsets improve but you lose the optimal screen and keyboard then serviceability.

The list by TPFanatic enumerates several options but suffers from the assumption that the newer 16:9 high resolution IPS screens are improvements; this does not hold generally although it is an understandable sentiment with reference to previous 16:9 offerings. It is akin to using an X series with an oversized body.

• 15.6" (39.62cm) 1920x1080 hd
  Megapixels: 2.07
  Aspect ratio: 16:9
  Display size: 13.6" × 7.65" = 103.99in² (34.54cm × 19.43cm = 670.89cm²) at 141.21 PPI, 0.1799mm dot pitch, 19941 PPI²
  
  15.6" (39.62cm) 2560x1440 qhd
  Megapixels: 3.69
  Aspect ratio: 16:9
  Display size: 13.6" × 7.65" = 103.99in² (34.54cm × 19.43cm = 670.89cm²) at 188.28 PPI, 0.1349mm dot pitch, 35450 PPI²
  
  15.0" (38.1cm) 1600x1200 uxga
  Megapixels: 1.92
  Aspect ratio: 4:3
  Display size: 12" × 9" = 108in² (30.48cm × 22.86cm = 696.77cm²) at 133.33 PPI, 0.1905mm dot pitch, 17778 PPI²
  
  15.0" (38.1cm) 2048x1536 qxga
  Megapixels: 3.15
  Aspect ratio: 4:3
  Display size: 12" × 9" = 108in² (30.48cm × 22.86cm = 696.77cm²) at 170.67 PPI, 0.1488mm dot pitch, 29127 PPI²
  
  12.1" (30.73cm) sxga+
  Megapixels: 1.47
  Aspect ratio: 4:3
  Display size: 9.68" × 7.26" = 70.28in² (24.59cm × 18.44cm = 453.4cm²) at 144.63 PPI, 0.1756mm dot pitch, 20917 PPI²
  
  12.75" (32.39cm) xga (fictitious X61)
  Megapixels: 0.79
  Aspect ratio: 4:3
  Display size: 10.2" × 7.65" = 78.03in² (25.91cm × 19.43cm = 503.42cm²) at 100.39 PPI, 0.253mm dot pitch, 10079 PPI²

From the above it is evident the 15.6" 16:9 screen has the approximate height of an X60 and less area than a 15.0" T60.

The numbers listed above should be enough for comparison (you can tell the ratio of image size reduction by looking at the ratio of the dot pitch for example) but those dazzled by the emperor's new clothes will talk in terms of "increased real estate" and so on -- if you subdivide each room in your house by building a wall through it's centre what effect does that have on your "real estate", has it doubled?

Generally, if you want to retain the best screen, keyboard and serviceability you stop at the augmented T/R/X61 series;
if you compromise on the screen you stop at the W/T/X*30 series and use the preceding series keyboard;
if you compromise on the screen and keyboard you stop at the T440p.
Other machines such as the 16:10 units, W70x, HP 8740W DC2 and TP25 can be slot into the schema.

Being unreasonable* I choose to draw the line at the first stop: I have a workaround for any limitation compared to any current thinkpad or future thinkpad, but try as I might I cannot stretch a screen by pulling on it.

Firstly the 15.0" modifications haven't been exhausted yet: for the best graphics put a 15.4" T61p planar in a 15.0" T60 shell together with other mods like modding the vBIOS to properly undervolt the GPU so that it can use a low voltage when idle and higher when under load when the driver tells it to use that adaptive mode. Another variation is using a R500 planar in a 15.0" R60 shell and modding the BIOS so it can for example run the E0 stepping T9900 at 3.2GHz on both cores; saying the C2D CPUs are slow and limited is uninformed, batch processing is almost as old as computers and there are programs which turn dual cores into multi tasking titans, look at task spooler and run linux.

All the computers referred to in TPFanatic's list will be old hat at some point. Choose the best user-centric machine as above, then use distributed computing and DVCS should your machine prove unequal to a task, i.e. retain the best user-machine interface. No one says to replace your old stradivarius with something more modern.

*In case the image disappears from the web, the following quote is due to George Bernard Shaw:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

[TPFanatic]

MacBook Pros still use 15.4" in 2880x1800 resolution (four times the area of 1440x900). Have any conclusions been drawn to using these displays in machines like T500 or 51nb T60 Wide/T61 15.4"? A screen like this would be superior in, well, almost every way (sans resolution, 4K T480 still wins there) to anything else current possible, if it too were achievable.

[cadillacmike68]

MacBook Pros still use 15.4" in 2880x1800 resolution (four times the area of 1440x900). Have any conclusions been drawn to using these displays in machines like T500 or 51nb T60 Wide/T61 15.4"? A screen like this would be superior in, well, almost every way (sans resolution, 4K T480 still wins there) to anything else current possible, if it too were achievable.

Four times the pixel density, Not the area.

[cadillacmike68]

Woah, 12 T61? Thats my dream hahah, to have enough working Thinkpads to keep pulling them out if they die on me.

Woah in my opinion 12 is just too much, unless you plan to give some away to friends and families over time. Maintaining these many of these machines is eventually going to be a chore, unless you only care about the functionality of only a couple of them.

Not much to do. Plug them in once in a while to charge batts, and get any mse or office10 updates. I keep 5 synced all the time, 3 for me, 2 for her. These are the 8GB ones. The others are all at 4GB. I have many left over 1GB PC2 / DDR2 DIMMs. We use external monitors here, and take 15" WS with WSXGA+ or WUGA when traveling.

They are all based off of three primary acronis TI backup images. Even though I have 14" reg, 14" wide, 15" wide and both Intel and nvidia graphic, if i have to restore an image (had to do that a few weeks ago when my wife's primary T61 8897 HDD went bad), the system will sort out screen size and resolution and graphics drivers after one or two boot cycles. That goes for FP readers, etc. I can put any HDD in any of the systems and it will boot up and run. I even made w10 images and restored them to old 160GB HDDs if I ever want to go that route. I have the last w10 update from 2019 on media in case I want to make turn one into a w10 system too. This will also work with my to T500s but I still haven't replaced the system boards in those yet.

I did loan one, a 14" WS nvidia to my nephew, He can keep it as long as he needs it.

If i ever get caught up on other projects / issues, I'll try unix / linux on one or more of them. folks say ubuntu is the best for this. And I remember getting one T61 that did have ubuntu on it.

[atagunov]

I can put any HDD in any of the systems and it will boot up and run

Hi, I seem to remember Windows getting upset if you swap the hardware and requiring re-activation. I had to call M$ once after swapping my motherboard on a PC I remember. Does it no longer get upset? Or can it not detect that it's a different T61?

[cadillacmike68]

I can put any HDD in any of the systems and it will boot up and run

Hi, I seem to remember Windows getting upset if you swap the hardware and requiring re-activation. I had to call M$ once after swapping my motherboard on a PC I remember. Does it no longer get upset? Or can it not detect that it's a different T61?

No issues if you use the Lenovo factory OEM build. I had to do it the hard way twice, boot from the dvd set and suffer through all the updates, watchomg out for the telemetry / spyware ones, removing unwanted bloat, etc, but from then on it was fine. I had 10 of the 12 all running on my DR table a few months ago. (two still need mobo transplants, which I have). The T61p did not want to find the nvidia driver, but after a few boots it finally found it. That one got its own backup image so I don't have to go through that again. I think I have 7 or 8 tailored backup images to more closely match the specific HW and primary user. I can use the same image on the T500s too, once I get them un-FUBAR'd

Had to do it from scratch again for the T530 because it just BSODs the image from the T61s; too much of a HW difference. Once I get that one where I like it, I'll back it up and then restore the image to the W530.

[kfzhu1229]

Hi, I seem to remember Windows getting upset if you swap the hardware and requiring re-activation. I had to call M$ once after swapping my motherboard on a PC I remember. Does it no longer get upset? Or can it not detect that it's a different T61?

In my experience under the legacy non-UEFI installations of Windows, it's only when you swap the motherboard (and sometimes the CPU) that the activation goes away. If you swap the HDD, just install the same edition of Windows 10 and connect to the internet and it should activate automatically. If not automatic, try running slmgr /ato under command prompt (admin).
If you do swap a motherboard though and want to get a genuine license, you can still activate Windows 7 and then upgrade to 10 on a spare HDD.
Or if you are despicable enough, you can even search on eBay for the likes of a ThinkPad T/W5x10/x20 laptops and see if someone is foolish enough to put a Windows 7 license key up there. I've tried it for science with a Latitude E6500 for an eBay ad for a E6520 and it works! I expect it to not work though but it did and I actually feel quite bad about it...

[TonyJZX]

This isnt going to be a popular view but i quite like the e485/495 series but I guess i'm coming around to the new chiclet kbd.

I'm happy with where lenovo is going with the amd series... would love to see what they have in regards to the new ryzen 4000 14" set.

[atagunov]

I quite like .. e485/495 series .. would love to see what they have in regards to the new ryzen 4000 14" set.

I was under impression T14 and/or T15 had AMD options on offer? This time the model name apparently no longer helps you distinguish an AMD from an Intel machine..

[TRS-80]

I read through the whole thread, but everyone is still only talking about ThinkPads? Maybe I missed something? Or maybe it's a testament to the fact that there are no real replacements?

I think "replacement" means different things to each of us, depending on what we found desirable about ThinkPads in the first place. For me that's nice looking 4:3 display, nice keyboard, build quality, repair/upgrade-ability, etc. Another very important for me is GNU/Linux support (which is all I run any more since a few years now), and Freedom (i.e., LibreBoot).

Personally, I absolutely refuse to purchase any more hardware that I do not completely "own" (i.e., unlocked BIOS/bootloader). This applies to desktop, laptop, smart phone, IP camera, router, refirgerator, or anything really. In fact I think it's obnoxious that some companies are willing to accept your hard earned money in exchange for their hardware, and then have the audacity to really believe that they should still "own" the device, even long after this otherwise willing exchange has taken place! Imagine purchasing a car that had the engine compartment welded shut!

Anyway, the above means that, going forward, Intel and AMD are essentially dead to me. Yes I am well aware that there are nowadays supposed mitigations against their IME nonsense (or AMD equivalent) but to me it's like grandma used to say, "it's the thought that counts!"

So this line of thinking led me to looking at other architectures. ARM comes immediately to mind, but I have had RISC-V and even POWER on my radar the last couple years, too. I have researched into that a fair amount, and am happy to discuss those things if there is any interest.

However in brief, I will mention that I became quite involved over at the Armbian forums / project as I feel very strongly that we need alternatives to x86 that are not completely locked down. Armbian is a Debian based GNU/Linux distribution for (roughly) "every other Single Board Computer (SBC) that is not Raspberry Pi."[0] This is where I think the future lie.

It has taken years to get there, but one of my buddies over there somewhat recently has been raving about his PineBook on latest dev branch. A lot of work has been going into F/LOSS (graphics, especially) drivers over the last several years and seems to finally be bearing fruit. Now of course we are probably still talking about chicklet keyboard and I dunno about the display, either, but the hardware is getting closer and closer to checking that Freedom box all the time[1]. And then you would get all the benefits of modern hardware and interfaces of course.

The thought has also crossed my mind (on more than one occasion! ) of taking one of these SBC (they are pretty small) and trying to shoehorn it in to a classic 15" T60 4:3 case, using its (FlexView) display and keyboard. But before I go to that extreme, maybe its time for me to pull the trigger on a PineBook and see just how bad they really are. Maybe I can live with it. It is certainly the first "modern" piece of hardware that I have taken any serious look at in a very long time, which is why I decided to add my $0.02 to this thread.

Of course, if your criteria are different to mine (you don't care about Freedom as much, etc.) you will very likely to come to a completely different conclusion.

Cheers,
TRS-80

[0] Armbian Supported Devices list
[1] The unfortunate reality is many of the ARM devices still require some blobs to boot, especially as regards graphics and things like Wi-Fi. But there are some boards that can be booted blobless. At least there is some glimmer of hope, unlike on x86 which I have completely given up on going forward.

[dr_st]

Personally, I absolutely refuse to purchase any more hardware that I do not completely "own" (i.e., unlocked BIOS/bootloader). This applies to desktop, laptop, smart phone, IP camera, router, refirgerator, or anything really. In fact I think it's obnoxious that some companies are willing to accept your hard earned money in exchange for their hardware, and then have the audacity to really believe that they should still "own" the device, even long after this otherwise willing exchange has taken place! Imagine purchasing a car that had the engine compartment welded shut!

Perhaps you are not aware, but it has been like this for quite some time. Any car you've purchased in the past 10, perhaps 20 years, has a number of embedded processors and controllers, which run completely proprietary firmware that's out of your control.

Of course, if your criteria are different to mine (you don't care about Freedom as much, etc.) you will very likely to come to a completely different conclusion.

I think different people just care about different kinds or better said, different aspects of freedom. For me, having full knowledge and control of the BIOS code of my computers has never been a top priority.

[TRS-80]

Perhaps you are not aware, but it has been like this for quite some time. Any car you've purchased in the past 10, perhaps 20 years, has a number of embedded processors and controllers, which run completely proprietary firmware that's out of your control.

Well of course you are correct, and it's an alarming trend. How much longer until your refrigerator stops working after X number of years, not because it fails, but simply because the manufacturer decided their business model requires you to be a good consumer and buy another one? As has already happened with some iPhones and other things...

Anyway it was an analogy to illustrate just how ridiculous this state of affairs is, which would not be accepted on any other hardware purchase, but somehow has (sadly, IMO) become the norm in most cases with computers, smart phones, etc...

I think different people just care about different kinds or better said, different aspects of freedom. For me, having full knowledge and control of the BIOS code of my computers has never been a top priority.

After years of discussing this issue with people, I am well aware I am in the minority. Very few people seem to care about it. I think it will take many more egregious scenarios as I laid out above before the majority of people start to take notice (if they ever do!). Unfortunately, by then it will be too late. We have almost completely lost control of "our" own devices already. When considering the social / political implications of platform control, it paints quite a terrifying, Orwellian scenario in my mind, made only all the more alarming by the low awareness and concern for the issue. Therefore I continue to try and raise awareness of the issue whenever possible, even though I fear the message largely fall on deaf ears (for now).

In the meantime, I stumbled across another quite related post, a different path forward:

[Idea] Intel NUC boards in Thinkpads?

It starts out talking about Intel NUC but eventually gets around to discussing ARM and other alternatives (which is where I personally think the future lie). I added my $0.02 over there as well (at the current end of that thread).

[TRS-80]

Perhaps motivated by my own comments (above), I took another look at PineBook Pro and around their forums and website last night and I must say I was pleasantly surprised to read they are actually using an IPS panel! Also a metal frame/body... OTOH, still looks like chicklet keyboard (although I read people saying "it feels nice") and of course no nipple mouse (which is something I completely forgot to mention before). Nowadays I use a mostly keyboard driven workflow anyway (Emacs, i3, etc.) so maybe I could live without nipple mouse? They are super light weight, too (only 1.26 kg / 2.78 lbs)! But the deal breaker (for me) is 16:9 (14.1" 1920x1080) which disgusts me.

I dunno, I keep circling around and looking at them, anyway.

At the moment they are totally out of stock not only PBP but also their tablet and some other things due to the Wuh Flu, but apparently expect to be able to start shipping again after Chinese New Year as the supply chain has started to recover.

Something else I really like about Pine, is that they are super hacker centric. Everything is F/LOSS/H to a very large extent and very hackable. They are clearly hackers at heart, and I like that a lot. Their stuff is also quite reasonably priced. There is a lot to like there, from my point of view. Is it enough to overcome my disgust for 16:9? Maybe for some applications (i.e., quick data entry in work truck, or others)?

[rumbero]

[...] I took another look at PineBook Pro and around their forums and website last night and I must say I was pleasantly surprised to read they are actually using an IPS panel! Also a metal frame/body... OTOH, still looks like chicklet keyboard ([...]) and of course no nipple mouse ([...]). [...] But the deal breaker (for me) is 16:9 (14.1" 1920x1080) which disgusts me.

I own a PineBook Pro since about a year, and yes, it is a nice piece of hardware.

Although still being a a happy T60/61/601 user (Debian/Linux only, no Windows) every day, it took only a short while to get used to the 16:9 IPS panel because the vertical 1080 resolution is what actually counts. Other than that the IPS panel is really nice.

They keyboard is somewhat ok, but in comparison to T6x ones it feels a bit awkward to me, especially since there is no trackpoint. The touchpad is rather a nuisance, even after fixing its firmware issues i simply can't get used to it and thus prefer using an external bluetooth mouse. I'd rather have a trackpoint, though, and that's the main reason i always come back to my T6x instead.

I regret to have ordered it with only a 64GB eMMC module instead of a 128GB one as i could need that storage amount. At least i got the optional NVMe adapter with it so there is the possibility to add an NVMe SSD card, but i didn't come around to purchase one.

Unfortunately the SOC only supports and provides 4GB of RAM and that is rather unfortunate being used to the multitasking possible on my T61/601 with 8GB RAM. I don't care much about raw CPU speed, for me it is just "good enough", and so won't say anything more about it.

The battery lasts many hours, depending on the work flow. Nonetheless, i have no real life duration estimation because i never really use this for any daily work but only played around with it for a short while until it became clear to me that the overall package is not sufficient for my work habits.

The full metal case really feels sturdy without making this device become heavy in any way.

I use it with the originally supplied Debian OS but replaced the desktop environment with the Window Maker window manager.

All in all this machine is very promising, but it is not there yet. It simply needs to support more RAM to become really useful and the existing keyboard/pointer combination is nothing to write home about yet.

[TRS-80]

Thanks a lot for the report, rumbero. It seems to me like I could have written the exact same thing had our roles been reversed.

I am (slowly) starting to come around to the point of view that comparing (keyboard, trackpoint, display, etc.) to ThinkPad will always come up unfavourably with almost any "modern" device. So I kind of compare such devices only against each other. It is from that viewpoint that PineBook starts to look better and better to me.

Unfortunately, I am afraid chances are slim of finding a mass market produced device that would have all (or even most) of the things we are looking for. Too many macro factors seem to be conspiring against us (decline of PC in general (much less laptops), vast majority of tech users are now consumers and not producers, etc.). And if all that is true it becomes a matter of weighing various compromises, of choosing the "least bad" option out of the ones that already exist (or coming in near future). And it's only in this context that PineBook starts to look pretty good. Because all the alternatives are so much worse / non-existent!

The only other way would be for some small, boutique hacker to crowdsource some limited production run of hardware that we would like. Maybe one day I will try it. It has been done already with other things like mechanical keyboards. Purism is doing it with the Librem 5 (although that is a much, much more ambitious project). The way I would go about would be to do a completely F/LOSS/H design on the whole laptop. I think this would be key, to make the parts have as wide of an applicability as possible. Then start crowd funding each piece. You could start with a 4:3 panel perhaps, or maybe the keyboard. Almost like a group buy. Or, I dunno, maybe coming up with a complete device all at once would be a better plan. Which makes it a lot more ambitious, but perhaps an easier sell. I do know some people (e.g., Helios guys, and others) who are doing stuff like this and being successful. Not getting rich, but making a go of it. It's a niche market to be sure, but I think it is possible.

Anyway, I don't have time for it now. If someone else gets there first, more power to them. I would buy several, and I think many others here would, too.